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A Thank You and Simple Wishlist For 2009

As 2008 drifts off into the sunset, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has read and/or commented on Breeders' Cup Chat. We had some lively debates, and even though 2008 wasn't the best of years for horse racing, I think we did a pretty good job of keeping it fun. I appreciated everyone's input, even when we disagreed. Thanks for making this blog so interesting and successful.

This will be my final Breeders' Cup Chat post until next summer, as the blog will switch over to Triple Crown Talk beginning next week. I look forward to chatting with everyone about the next crop of 3-year-old superstars. We already know who some of the early Derby favorites are, but let's all keep an eye out for the late-bloomers. Remember, Big Brown didn't burst onto the scene until March.

For my final post of the year, I'd like to offer a simple New Year's wishlist. Not that any of these three things will happen, but in a perfect world, we would see changes in 2009. Feel free to post your own wishlist.

See everyone on Triple Crown Talk!

3. Stricter penalties for medication violations - Enough is enough. A big reason for the decline in the popularity of horse racing is that people have little or no confidence in the integrity of the sport. When the trainers of the world's most popular horses continually get popped for drug violations - and keep getting a slap on the wrist - it sends a clear message: The public has no reason to trust horse racing. And if that continues, the sport will keep declining.

Let's finally put in place tough drug policies, much like other nations have had for years: First violation - one year suspension; second violation - five years; third violation - lifetime ban. That would solve the lying and cheating real quick. More realistically, I hope at the very least a rule is put into place that says a trainer cannot transfer horses to his/her assistant during the time they are serving their suspension. It's a laughable way of avoiding the penalty. Under my rules, if you are serving a suspension, either the horse is permanently transferred to another barn or they are not allowed to run during the infraction period. It's that simple.

Steroids nearly ruined baseball. Illegal drugs (not just steroids) will ruin horse racing if stricter penalties are not enforced.

2. Address the problem of unwanted horses - I wrote about this in an earlier post, but if this epidemic is not tackled the problem will keep getting worse, and thousands of horses will continue to suffer.

The slaughter issue in this country is a mess right now and likely will not be solved at a Congressional level any time soon. The Thoroughbred industry is not solely responsible for the unwanted horse issue (see the Quarter Horse industry), but one thing we can do is make owners and breeders more accountable. A system must be put in place to make owners and breeders financially responsible for their horses.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but it makes sense that if a person takes on the responsibility of breeding or owning a horse, they should be held responsible for its welfare, both during and after racing - especially since it is those very animals that are putting bread on the table. Something needs to be done. Now. There aren't nearly enough rescue facilities to solve the problem.

3. Name a commissioner - Neither No. 1 or No. 2 on the list above, or anything else for that matter, can get accomplished without putting a person or group in charge of horse racing. I know it's easier said than done, but we need a governing body to enforce rules. Otherwise, the cheating, unwanted horse issue, and other current problems will get worse. The Safety and Integrity Alliance developed in October was a good first step, but it was only a band-aid. Tough rules need to be put into place, and without a commissioner they won't get done. It's time for someone to step forward. The "league" must have control over the sport, not the states.

156 Comments:

Lets go a step further and adopt a zero tolerance on all drugs and lifetime bans for trainers and vets

barn dude 30 Dec 2008 12:37 PM

I like all three of your suggestions. How about as a commissioner of Horse Racing having someone who is known to the public such as George Steinbrenner who would gather interest also from the general public in Horse Racing. Another wish of mine is to stop having some horse racing television stations have some races while others can only broadcast others. I think that TVG and HRTV should show all the races out there that are important. My pick right now for the KY Derby is Square Eddie.

Robert M 30 Dec 2008 12:41 PM

Thank you Jason!! It's been real and it's been fun! Happy New Year to you and on to the next!

To add to the wish list

1. When the commissioner IS appointed that ALL tracks, farms, etc. agree to the rules and regulations set up. Half the time a good idea goes down the drain because we can't come to an agreement.

2. I wish for a reduction in breeding. The market cannot support the numbers. Hence the "need" for slaughter houses.Let us hope your suggestions carry weight.

3. Either limit 2 yr old racing or get rid of it, if we are going to continue to breed weak horses as the norm then at least let them mature before they are required to run.

4. Remember the Littles. The little people. you, me, the grooms, hotwalkers, riders, fans, track employees etc.

5.Bring back a racing series. Any racing series.

6.Promote our athletes! Equine and human.

7. Last but not least. That we all hit a trifecta this year!! lol

Peace to all!

SundaySilenced 30 Dec 2008 1:00 PM

I concur in spades with your #3, stricter rules for drug violations.

Horse racing should take a page out of the book the Olympic Committee uses and strip those (including Big Brown who had drugs/steroids in his system when he beat the weakest group of 3 yr olds in history to show up for a Derby)of their wins. Brownies Derby win should be awarded to Eight Belles post-mortem. The Big Ole Browneye and any other who used the aid of drugs to win don't deserve to keep their tainted victories. All purse money from those tainted wins should be returned and redistributed as well.

The appointment of a Commissioner with the kahuna's to insist on this type of penalty is a must. It don't hurt much to cheat when the consequences are minimal.

draynot 30 Dec 2008 1:25 PM

I can't wait for Triple Crown Talk! I love all the things on the list. Also;

Larry Jones wins the Kentucky Derby

Racing starts promoting its horses and jockeys and stat attracting younger fans.

Majella from Ireland 30 Dec 2008 1:36 PM

I am in complete agreement with a strong anti-drug policy with severe consequences for offenders. And I agree with SundaySilenced about a reduction in the number of foals produced, there would also be a better chance for a standout horse with smaller crops. And I really hope the Jockeys series on Animal Planet is popular and brings some new(and positive) interest to the sport. Jockeys are the most under rated athletes, I wish they were recognized by the general public for the incredible feats they perform everyday. I really wish it wasn't so exciting to the fans to see a four year old run, I wish it was just normal for a healthy 3yo to return at 4(and 5 & 6,if he's still going good), especially a good one. There are plenty of stallions and very few track "stars", I wish to see more "stars". And on a more personal note I wish I get to meet Gary Stevens and Russell Baze next week at Portland Meadows!! And I wish Jason and all of the bloggers a super happy New Year!

barb 30 Dec 2008 1:53 PM

That would be some great story if Old Fashioned takes the Derby, and the Preakness and...  But seriously, on the subject of horse slaughter and over breeding, when a horse like Little Cliff-despite Nick Zito's sincere safeguards-can be slated for slaughter, this "industry" needs to examine itself.  We hate to see breeding farms suffer and jobs lost, but there are too many horses and too many owners in the game for the wrong reasons.  The dire economic situation may take care of that, too.

joe 30 Dec 2008 1:54 PM

My Triple Crown wish list for 2009 would be for Barbaro's little brother Nicanor  to win it.  It will mean so much to all of us FOBs. (Fans of Barbaro)

Chris 30 Dec 2008 3:10 PM

I disagree with Robert M because some horse racing fans do not have HRTV or TVG.

rags to riches 30 Dec 2008 3:24 PM

LOVE your wish list and thanks for your writing all year!

whitney 30 Dec 2008 3:34 PM

I agree with many of the comments. I really think that there should be a crackdown on Trainers who are caught over and over again on banned medication violations. All they ever seem to get is a slap on the wrist - The California racing board felt like banning Pat Valensuala from riding in the state for good - yet does nothing about top rated So Cal Trainers who are 'cheaters'.

I would also like to see more information on horses that break down - we get lots of info on the jockey when that happens but the poor horse gets forgotten - More needs to be done to promote the safety and welfare of the horse.

Finally, I only get TVG - I would like to see all races - not just the ones that TVG has an agreement with. Horse racing entities should make it easier for the fan to have access to racing - not hinder the fan.

anneM 30 Dec 2008 3:52 PM

I cannot agree more with your number two. I think that its absurd how little thought is given to these athletes once they're 'past their prime.' More attention must be brought to this problem and the U.S. should end horse slaughter once and for all.

Next, maybe not of so much importance just simple hopes for 2009. Barbaro's brother Nicanor starts a long, successful & safe racing carrer. Larry Jones' Old Fashioned picks up where Eight Belles left off. Curlin starts his work at becomming an influential sire for future racers. Zenyatta FIANLLY races and beats the boys!

Lady Ruffian 30 Dec 2008 4:23 PM

Thank you for the continuing this blog when the triple crown trail was over - it's been a lot of fun as well as informational.  I can completely agree with your wish list for 2009 and I hope that next year will see many strides made toward those goals.  Thanks for the fun columns.

txhorsefan 30 Dec 2008 4:23 PM

Being able to see all the important races on TV is on my wish list, too.  Here in Las Vegas, TVG is on our cable system but not HRTV.  HRTV also is not among the main satellite provider's offerings, though it is on the other one (Dish Network, I think).  

We here are lucky, with lots of race books a short drive away for anyone who wants to watch and bet.  But in the winter -- TC prep season -- I would like to see more races at home on TV.  And fans who don't get the racing channels and don't have convenient simulcast places are worse off than me.

If TVG and HRTV can't agree on content sharing, I wish at least a few more important races could be shown on the networks or ESPN, even if they weren't all live.  I remember the Fountain of Youth and Louisiana Derby used to be on and now they're not.  I guess cost, scheduling or both are problematical, which is kind of why the racing channels started.  

I'm glad, of course, to have TVG, but still it is a long winter.

Pam S. 30 Dec 2008 4:51 PM

I enjoyed Triple Crown Trail and Breeders Cup blogs, and I agree with your recommendations.  It seemed that banning steroids was relativeley easy; the hard work will be doing the same with Bute and Lasix which are used even more.  My friend Willie showed me a DRF from Emerald Downs earlier this year and every horse was marked as "using" Bute and Lasix.  I doubt there could be a ban on 2-year-old racing, but a limitation (after July maybe) might be possible. I'm still looking for a gray horse to win the Triple Crown.

Swapsfan 30 Dec 2008 4:53 PM

I agree that we should go after the cheaters with no mercy, but having trained horses for a number of years I also know that honest mistakes can happen, especially in a large stable where several different people may handle any given horse. There's a big difference between trying to "take an edge" and simply making a mistake, or having a horse who is given a legal medication which is stopped in the required amount of time, but who may have a slower metabolism and therefore ends up with a bad test.

As far as the problem of unwanted horses goes, it's fine to hold owners and trainers responsible, but be aware that sometimes horses end up in a bad situation, despite its former owner's best efforts. I have tried desperately to make sure the people who bought my horses were trustworthy (although some were claimed away) and have always offered to buy them back (given the people my phone #, etc.) if the time came that they didn't want them. Yet I still lost track of many of them, including my first homebred. I only hope they are o.k. So don't assume that if a horse ends up in a bad home that the breeder or owner doesn't care. It could be they would be more than willing to take care of their horse but can't find him or her.

Cheryl from Maryland 30 Dec 2008 6:03 PM

I agree with you Jason about the 3 wishes however to take it a step further, if all states adopted the same policies, no race day medications. Suspensions to be enforced concurrently by all states. All loopholes closed for trainers. Make the owners more accountable since their footing the bill the majority of the time. Perhaps 1 or 2% of the take at each tracks meet should go to the welfare of unwanted horses. Just a suggestion.... See you next year so I can give you all the '09 Derby winner. :) I know the Derby winner won't be Colonel John however he DID come back and win the TRAVERS after all!

Billy D. 30 Dec 2008 7:50 PM

Cheryl From Maryland: You make good points, especially the latter one about horses getting lost in the shuffle after an owner's honest attempt at providing a good post-race career. No solution is going to be perfect, but we can certainly do better than we are doing now.

Billy D: You also make valid points, especially the one about all states adopting the same drug policies. It is a MUST.

jshandler 30 Dec 2008 9:08 PM

I do not think that there will ever be able to be a commissioner with any teeth until the states can get together on uniform policies period.  Keep in mind that in the end, it is the goverment, each individual state that dictates a lot of these policies. I do agree 100% that we need a commissioner if possible and the Breeders Cup organization needs a thorough management shake up.

Carrie 30 Dec 2008 9:29 PM

The most annoying thing that the Breeders Cup people do is have all the saddlecloths the SAME COLOR. Do they hate horseplayers or is it just me? What's wrong with the traditional colors so we can see where we stand? Maybe if they made it easier there might be more fans of horseracing.

Jimmy C inSeaBreeze 30 Dec 2008 11:09 PM

we like your three picks plus a ton of TV EXPOSURE!!!...we are going with a Tapit Gelding...to win the ROSES...Scarlet Griffin...good luck, happy new year & Long Live The King!!!

Bellwether 30 Dec 2008 11:22 PM

#2 Issue needs some serious consideration. This is the slaughter issue . Having been in the horse industry  my entire life, I have seen many changes that are detremental to the entire equine industry-not only Thoroughbreds.

"Back in the old days' horses were sent to AMERICAN slaughter plants. The horses were treated humanly & the plants were monitored.

Many a horse had not had a decent meal in many years untill arriving at the plant..People who chose not to send a horse to slaughter didn't do so. Having spent many years at horse auctions,I SELDOM saw a good horse go to the killer pens & ever actually load onto a truck. there were ALWAYS one of us there to save the good ones,Me, 'Tom' , Bill, Ted, Jane & kathy, all leaning over the killer pens to pluck out any horse that we felt didn't belong there....back then ''we'' would take that horse & check him out, repair him or what-ever could be done. "We' would work hard & then re-sell the horses. VERY few good ones slipped through the cracks.This happened all across the USA at auction yards. Back then the market was healthy, you could sell your horses & many did go to good homes. The slaughter market drove the industry, like it or not .

NOW & over the past years that there has not been any plants allowed in the USA,the industry has suffered , but no one has suffered MORE than the horses.

Horses are being left to starve, turned out on reservations, state lands, other ranchers herds and abandoned at the auctions. There is no longer, "Me' , Ted, Bill, Jane or Mary to save the good ones. We cannot as there is no market for them. Oh, we can rescue a few -but now ... ALL the horses go, even the good ones. Economics and cost of feed hinder all of us who worked so hard to save so many.

NOW DAYS, what you see is  yet another OUT-SOURCED American job / industry & slaughter horses sent  to other countries, like Canada & Mexico. Canada has more humane treatment but the horror stories of what the Mexicans do cannot be repeated here. Since the ban of slaughter horses in the USA, the whole indusrty has declined, from tack, feed, equipment etc etc.

The horses are now "Free'' and therefore have 'no value'', hence they are not cared for very well.

There ARE other ways to also cut down the horse population , such as spaying the mare or gelding the stallion. How about offering reduced fees to support this, or incentive programs.That is only one idea.

One thing that does bother me as well , is that there are millions of starving nations. Why not offer horse meat ? Why is a horse so much different than a cow or chicken ? Now all the horses go to absolute waste, being euthanized , then thrown in a land dump- while people starve. Horses will continue to go to slaughter one way or the other & what I now see is ALL the horses loading on a truck,GOOD ONES who would have had a continued life IF there WAS a market left.

I personally would not send my horse to slaughter,but not everyone has that luxury.

IS it better to see a horse starve to death due to lack of funds to feed him ,or turned out -abandoned & terrified ? A horse does not know he is going to slaughter but he DOES know when he has been thrown away. Things happen to horses despite the BEST of care, should the owner or breeder ALSO be subject to new rules & laws as well as his heart-ache that a well loved horse has been injured.?

The rescue opperations are stressed out financially, even THEY are having horses removed from their opperations because they have too many to feed.

Every kid used to have a horse but now very few own them. What could be worse for the horse industry than this ? This Government control is what has put almost all the dairies out of business while ONLY they own the big dairy farms.

Now they want to force micro-chipping & other sanctions upon all livestock owners. It is hard enough without adding MORE exspense to the ones who love farming. MOST of us would not send a horse to slaughter but it should BE a choice that we have.

A horse who was vicious ,killed the daughter of a wife and husband...so now this horse goes to a rescue opperation ? I'd send it on it's way.

The issue of slaughter can be addressed but what I see is a HUGE decline in ALL breeds and less owners.

Breeders & others can be educated & many DO want to do what is best.

As I see the entire equine indusrty go down to it's knees, I felt that it was time to at least speak out and NO ONE loves horses MORE than I. I have  saved so many in the past, spent countless hours helping horses with no thought of making money or proffiting in any way. I would take a look at who is really behind the slaughter ban & to me, it smells like the new world order. There ARE solutions but making horses extinct or only for the wealthy is not the way to go. In the past there was a thing called common sense not just politics.

PAM 30 Dec 2008 11:53 PM

I agree there should be a national commissioner. I wish for 2009 is that a two year star comes out of either del mar or Saratoga. I felt 2008 missed that horse. No Afleet Alex, or Stevie Wonderboys to get excited about before derby season. My biggest wish for all horses to make the breeders cup and not use synthetic tracks as an excuse.  

RJPPDP 31 Dec 2008 1:16 AM

HAPPY NEW YEAR BROWNIE!!!

BBfan1 31 Dec 2008 3:43 AM

Unfortunately things change and breeders can often find  themselves struggling.  You may well breed with the idea of selling or racing.  During the time you make a decision the market falls through at the sales and prize money drops or the horse just cannot run.  Try and give away the horse and no-one wants it.  What is the next move?  

Is it realistic to ask the owner/breeder to look after a horse for life?  How does this work?  I would think that a more sensible solution would be to get the betting industry (who are the main people to profit and put in very little) to stump up a percentage of winnings.  Get the sales companies to provide a percentage of profits.  Get the buyer of a horse to pay a tax.  Get the seller of a horse to pay a tax.  If the horse has to kept for life then the person keeping the horse can then apply for funding to do so out of a central fund.

The only solution really is to not breed.  Unfortunately, this is not even simple.  If you have a couple of mares what do you do with them?  Keep them barren for life?  Sell them on and hope the new owner keeps them barren?  Put them down?  

I have no solutions either.  All I do know is that this problem was fixable before over production occured and now is almost impossible to solve in retrospect.

AEP 31 Dec 2008 4:30 AM

 I found it surprising that a horse in the racing world could not be traced to a current owner. Is there no horse ownership registration? Please excuse my lack of knowledge as I have never owned a horse I've just been a fan of racing and a lover of horses.

 Maybe in the new year owners would have to have a license and every horse bought and sold would have to register that horse in a legal valid name and addresse. Just a thought.

 My number one concern is that all owners take responsibility for their animals welfare whether it be a horse, dog, etc.

 HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. Looking forward to the Triple Crown Trail.

DONNA 31 Dec 2008 9:37 AM

Something has to be done to protect horses as they fall through the claiming ranks.  I was sickened this past weekend to see Papi Chullo in a $10,000 claiming race at Aqueduct.  This is a horse that was running in grade 1 races a year ago and has over $350,000 in earnings.  I pray he is retired after this and does not end up in the slaughter barn.  I feel helpless.  If it can happen to him the low level claimers do not stand a chance.  

smartalex 31 Dec 2008 9:56 AM

I remember Papi Chullo...that makes me sad. I dont see why people that have enough to live comfy don't give some of these guys a nice barn to sleep in every other night and a couple acres to run and graze on. My very far out new years wish is to win the lotto or something so I can own a quiet place for retirees.

jinglebelles 31 Dec 2008 2:37 PM

I like a horse in the 9th race at gulfstream on saturday His name is Ruler's Vision and I think that this has potential to make a big impact on the ky derby trail.. What do you guys think?

Ky Derby 31 Dec 2008 4:17 PM

I completely agree with there being tougher penalties  in place for trainers that cheat.  I am so tired of seeing the trainer of the year go to someone that broke the rules. Nothing like seeing those big, fat grins on their faces as they walk to the podium to get their Eclipse Awards.  I also agree the horses should NOT be transferred to the assistants.  Have we not seen baseball managers standing in the alley, calling the dugout?  Same thing happens with the trainers that get days-makes me sick they get rewarded for consciously making wrong decisions.  

Dreamer's Mom 31 Dec 2008 4:42 PM

Jinglebelles,

I'm with you. I'd also like to win the lottery so I can rescue a few of these beautiful animals.

One of the wishes on my simple wishlist is for far less catastrophic breakdowns. Zero would be nice. Let's hope it happens someday.

Melissa 31 Dec 2008 4:50 PM

Let the owners send their horses to slaughter because "there is no other choice", but don't allow them to ever own another horse again.  They are not responsible owners, they aren't willing to spend a little money on euthanization to allow their horses a humane end.  There should be a law--slaughter one, and your days as a horseowner are over.

gatewatcher 31 Dec 2008 5:18 PM

Question:

This possible future "Commissioner Of Racing"...

Why couldn't it be either the current or a newly elected "Breeders Cup Committee" ???  

Kind of like a 9 member "Supreme Court" of Racing who does decide everything for the entire nation of Racing, instead of just 1 person !!!

CRob87 31 Dec 2008 5:30 PM

Just a follow up to my idea of a "Supreme Court" of Racing instead of just 1 Commissioner.

How about electing the 1 most influential person from each of the top 9 states of Racing for the possible "Supreme Court of Racing" ???

Or...

The 1 most influential person from the top 9 Regions of Racing from all over the country ???   So it's not just 9 people from Kentucky who might only have Kentucky's best interest in mind.

And...

Then voted on by the Owners, Breeders, Jockeys, Trainers etc. from that Region.   The people that would know that person the best and who would have that Regions best interest in mind.

CRob87 31 Dec 2008 6:11 PM

A great blog through the Breeders Cup and I look forward to Triple Crown Talk just as much.

All three things you suggest, Jason, are much needed but in reality no one will listen.

Personally, something I hope for in 2009 is that we get a Triple Crown winner but that’s something everyone hopes for at the start of every year. And I hope even more so that it’s Square Eddie!

JOSE93 31 Dec 2008 6:14 PM

To PAM- you said that horses are treated humanely at American slaughter plants. Im 15, Im Irish and I certainly havnt been in the industry all my life but I do know that NO animal, cow, pig or horse are treated huanely.

I am not against horse slaughter because I eat meat, but I do think it is cruel. I feel that owners should humanely euthinize their horses instead of shipping them off to slaughter.

Majella from Ireland 31 Dec 2008 6:32 PM

Well Jason, we made it through another year, a little battered and bent but not broken. Some of us are older and wiser and some guys out there are older and just as dumb as they were last year.

Actually I knew it was Wednesday and had horses to work just another day to us guys at the track. The horses don't take holidays off, well they may but seeing that they don't cook for themselves us personal chefs have to do it for them.

Anyway, a HAPPY and prosperous New Year to all of you but especially to the big and little guys, rich and poor and the horses that make up our industry and my life.

Atthebarn2 31 Dec 2008 7:31 PM

Hey, Jason, how about a Papi Chullo watch!!!!!?????? Can you do that? If not, maybe you can send this idea to Alex Brown.

That was a darn nice little horse. He ran well and I would think a true horse owner would have been proud of him. I'd take him, but for today at least, I can only afford one at a time.

Thanks for hosting this wonderful forum. If only we'd get the old guard out. Maybe they out to put a few horse people/racing fans on some of these boards, etc.

Jim P 31 Dec 2008 9:04 PM

Jason,

I certainly didn't mean to imply that racing doesn't need plenty of improving. Having spent more than 30 years in racing in various capacities I know there are numerous problems and no easy answers.

I'm wary of a no-tolerance drug policy-I just don't think the answer is that simple. If someone is caught using an illegal substance with no therapeutic value rule him or her off forever. But should we really bar someone for life (or even for a year) for an honest mistake? For instance, a horse tests positive for a medication which is legal for training purposes and it is the trainer's first offense. Shouldn't some consideration be given to the possibility that either the substance was used correctly and didn't clear the horse's system in time, the substance was used correctly and the trainer miscounted the days between the last dose and race day or the wrong medication was accidently given to the wrong horse and no one realized it until it was too late (I would hope that wouldn't happen too often, but I know it can happen)? I'm not saying the trainer shouldn't be held accountable, but a year seems harsh for a first offense which is clearly a mistake. I guess my point is that we are all human-we all make mistakes. As for the ones with repeat violations, I'm not sure what the answer is although I agree that the current system does not seem to be much of a deterrent. It frustrates me that some people are either so shortsighted that they cannot see that the public is turning away because they don't believe racing's on the level, or they don't care as long as they can win races. Don't they realize that if the public doesn't come and bet, there won't be any purses to run for? I also agree that the practice of transferring the horses to the assistant trainer should be stopped. It's not much of a punishment if you can train your horses by phone. And I agree with Billy D that the owners should be held accountable (to a certain extent). If they choose to use a trainer who repeatedly breaks the rules, then they shouldn't complain if their horses can't run during the course of the suspension, or need to be transferred to a trainer in good standing.

One subject that has not been mentioned is the whip. I have often had people who are unfamiliar with racing ask "if they love to run, why do the jockeys whip them"? I have yet to come up with a good answer to that question. Personally I feel that used properly and in the right hands the whip is not necessarily abusive (although at times I have seen it being used in an abusive manner). Maybe stricter rules on the use of the whip, such as those in place in Europe would help. Or if it really turns the public off maybe the time has come to ban its use. I know there's been a lot of discussion about that in recent years and I know some riders are using the new shock-absorbing whips, but I also know some people just don't like to see the horses being hit.

Racing desperately needs to attract new fans. Maybe a commissioner could do something to encourage the development of more uniform rules and better scheduling of stakes races so they don't conflict with each other.

To Donna-horses' ownership can often be tracked as long as they are still racing or having timed workouts. But if they are out of training and sent to the farm or sold to someone off the track it can be extraordinarily difficult to find them.

Jason-love your blog. Keep up the good work and let's hope racing has a great year in 2009.

Cheryl from Maryland 31 Dec 2008 9:19 PM

Let's take a horse like Papi Chullo. We have 3 people talking about him on this blog. If 3 people put up $50 a month on him that would help out getting him into a re-training facility for a new career -- like New Vocations or Exceller Fund. Maybe that support could be continued through adoption.

Maybe you have parternship adoptions, like West Point or Dogwood.  

If more than 3 people came in, the cost would be lowered. Maybe identify a horse and see what happens.  

Jim P. 31 Dec 2008 9:32 PM

Jim P.: I'll do my best to keep an eye out for Papi. I'll try to update people as he runs.

Cheryl: As for the medication suspensions, I think there has to be a zero tolerance rule for this to work. Trainers will be forced to run a tighter ship if they dont want mistakes to happen.

Thanks to everyone for their comments!

jshandler 31 Dec 2008 9:43 PM

To all the people concerned with Papi Chullo...he is also being discussed on Steve Haskin's current blog and Michael Blowen has responded and invited him to Old Friends, you should all check it out.

barb 01 Jan 2009 12:43 AM

AMEN to PAM...said it all about the HORSES & HUMANS...fix more of BOTH...Long Live The Gelding!!!...

Bellwether 01 Jan 2009 1:19 AM

Dear MAJELLA From IRELAND & also GATEWATCHER;

I am finished with night-stable & have read your comments,and I am so glad that all of us across the world may have such an opportunity to speak with each other via this blog. I think solutions can be considered & found ,in this way.

First I would comment on GATEWATCHER who stated "To pam'', that horse owners may send a horse to slaughter but then NEVER be allowed to own a horse again & gatewatcher has said that an owner should be responsible and have the horse humanly euthanized.

My view of euthanazia differs from your opinion , in that I do not see this as "Humane'' at all. I worked for vets & had times where I assisted in euthanizing animals, mostly dogs, cats & horses. It was a rare time to see the animals go down quietly and with no knowledge of what was happening to them. Most fought & struggled as their hearts blew up when given the shot. The looks in their eyes was of hatred or fear. The 'shot' given is painful,a bullet would be a lot more humane.Having such knowledge, I do not have my horses 'euthanized' and it is NO more humane than other methods. My choice has thus become a different choice.(In case you wonder if I would send them to slaughter ) My horse is given a huge bag of grain,laced with a calming agent & he is let to eat & eat to his hearts content,when he is very full & sleepy , the gun goes off. For some people it is not because they "don't want to spend the money''

There is NO WAY that is a ''good'' way. We have a funeral & show respect to the horse we loved for so many years.I think death of the animal is a lot harder on the owner.

To MAJELLA , on your comment that you have never seen any slaughter plant opperated in a humane way, be it a cow, chicken or equine.

When a horse arrives at a plant,in the USA, it is seperated as to sex ,size & age.There is ample space and long feed bunks full of good quality hay. There is water & it is CLEAN water, as are the pens.

The horses are not sent away for one week. (ie: Killed.)

On that day there is no hearding,whipping or cattle prods,and the plant is efficient & quiet, the horses are not terrorized,contrary to what you may have heard.

I do NOT condone slaughter but it was a way which has worked in the past for many years & the animal was not wasted. I personally think that to waste the animal is horrible too & not respectful. To throw a large animal such as a horse into a land-fill, that is what is disgusting to me.There is nothing wrong with horse meat that it should be wasted while people starve.

The thing is , before when slaughter was not banned, there was not an over-population. When any species of animal becomes over-populated, thousands die of some insidious disease as nature will tend to do.

I think people should be very selective in their breeding practices or not breed at all.

Buyers have a choice NOT to buy inferior stock & these kind of ir-responsible breeders will soon go out of business.

For now, there IS a big problem with too many horses & not enough owners. The horses continue to go to slaughter but , your right, MAJELLA, not all plants are humane, especially outside the USA.

It would be better to keep the plants in the USA if the horse resides in the USA where conditions can be monotored as in the past.

There is no easy solution,but forcing laws and even MORE debt & penalty fees upon horse-owners will not create more owners, quite the opposite.

As I said owners should have a choice and my personal choice would not be to slaughter my horses. I do not even KNOW anyone who has ever taken delight in sending their horse to slaughter. It is usually an agonizing decision AS is other ways to end an animals life. However, there must be a common sense approach to all of these issues.I still maintain that to sterilize the animals would work best , over-all & with the least exspense.Offer incentives NOT penalties, offer education , NOT condemnation.

What I have been seeing in the past years since slaughter has been banned is suffering to the greatest degree, OF the horses & in the ways I mentioned in my first writing.I also see fewer & fewer horse owners ,consequently there will come a day when there are less horses but the problem needs a solution now.

I gave serious consideration before I wrote on such a controversial matter but if no-one speaks up, there will be no solutions. I am not saying I am right,only relaying what I have seen & learned after many years .

In a perfect world no animal or people would suffer.Death is part of life & the main thing is to live life well & love & care for your horses and all animals in your care. That is what I do.

PAM 01 Jan 2009 3:15 AM

I rarely comment on columns like this one because I know that people will believe what they want to regardless of what I would say.  However, I decided to respond here as the points that you make (while well-intentioned) do not square with my admittedly limited experience as a horse owner.

I have been a fan of horse racing for about 40 years and only decided to buy a few horses in the last few years.  As a relative outsider, I can only comment on my own experiences.

As regards your first point about medication, my horses receive medication only when they need it for their health.  Sometimes it is gray area as to whether medication should be used or not, but it is always with the best interest of the horse in mind.  Medication is a curse for horse owners as it is both expensive and unpredictable.  I would much prefer not to give any medication, but it would be unconscionable to not treat a horse that needed the medication.  Nor do my horses get medication when what they need is rest.  The two horses that I own have just returned to training following an 8 month stay on the farm to allow them to heal from minor injuries.  I do not use medication as a way to cheat.  Nor have I seen any evidence from my limited experience around the barns that I am an exception.  Every owner that I have met appears to love their horses and horse racing, and many think of them almost as pets.  There may be some out there who use medication to try and cheat, but I don't personally know of anyone like that.

As regards unwanted horses, every horse that I own will be well cared for by me as long as I own it. Nor do I wish to sell any horse that I own.  However, if one of my horses is healthy but not fast enough to compete at a higher level, I have little choice but to run it in a claiming race where it can be bought by anyone.  Once it has been claimed, I am then as much out of the loop as to what happens to that horse as you are.  I do agree with your statement that the owner should be responsible for the horse's welfare once that horse has retired.  But, that should be the current owner at the time, not someone who may have owned the horse at some time in the past.  (By the way, your comment about horses putting bread on the table is simply factually incorrect.  Most horses do not recover their expenses in purse winnings, usually by a long shot.  Though this is irrelevant as far as that horse being cared for when it retires.)

As regards your last point about naming a commissioner, I have little comment on that. I'm not sure what such a person or group would accomplish.  Right now, the states essentially control horse racing and are not likely to relinquish control of what has always been a cash cow for them.

The focus of your entire column is your apparent belief that the industry is rampant with unethical people trying to cheat at every turn.  And that if we could fix that, we might be able to revive horse racing again.  While I agree that many others share that belief (especially reading the other comments to this column), that belief has not so far been born out by my experience.  We live in a conspiracy-minded society where many people think that the next person is trying to cheat them somehow.  And while that perception does matter and may be widespread, that does not make it true.

FourCats 01 Jan 2009 4:25 AM

The latest on Papi Chullo is that Ernie Munick's Facebook club "New York Racing" has been taking donations from members to purchase the horse, who was recently claimed for $10,000. Michael Blowen of Old Friends said he definitely will take the horse whenever he becomes available. The club has collected a few thousand dollars so far, and Maggi Moss said said she will help out. Also being contacted is Mike Iavarone, who was Papi's former owner in partnership with Gary Contessa and Winning Move Stable. As far as I know the last two have not been contacted. I also heard the present trainer, Joe Imperio, who claimed him for $10,000, is reluctant to part with the horse, feeling he has more racing left in him. With the horse's ever-growing following, I wouldnt want to be in Imperio's shoes if something happened to him. There would be quite an outcry. That is where everything stands now. If you are on Facebook, check out Ernie Munick's club for further information.

Steve Haskin 01 Jan 2009 10:40 AM

I agree with the drug and steroids issue that something has to be done, however I think it needs to go further regarding the soundness of the horses. I have grown up watching horse racing. The last Triple Crown winner happened a year or two before I was born. I would like to see one in my lifetime (heck, I would like to see several). It was spoken to after the Eight Belles incident regarding certain bloodline (mentioned was Northern Dancer) who are known to have a record of producing horses that are less than ideally sound. I don't really know a heck of alot about Thoroughbred bloodlines, but coming now from the world of dogs being bred for show and performance, I know there is an increasing emphasis in the dog world (at least among responsible people who think toward the future of their breeds) to breed for soundness phsically and internally. It seems to be more of am emphasis in the Thoroughbred world to breed for what is going to get you the speed and the $ and so what if they fall apart by the end of their 3 year old year, we'll syndicate them to stud or use them as a broodmare. Yes, Big Brown was a great three year old, but I see the mark of true greatness as a horse that can stay sound and keep winning at 4, 5, etc. I would really like to see breeders take a focus on soundness along with speed, then all drugs and crap wouldn't even be necessary. I understand if there was this kind of frameshift, that racing might take a few steps backward in the perceived quality of the horses that came to the track, but you would be having greater longevity in racing careers and they would retire to breeding SOUND! After a few years to a decade, you would be back to the level racing is now. Synthetic surfaces are great if they are the next technological step to protect the welfare of the horses, but horses have run on plain old dirt for a long time so it speaks to a greater problem beyond the surface they are running on. I do not say to get rid of two year old racing, but maybe put a limit on how often a two year old can race or how many races they can do so they are not pushed too hard (plus if some of the soundness issues were taken away...). Don't change the Triple Crown either. It is the ultimate test and horses can do it. Breed them sound, train them to have endurance as well as speed, and racing will have a brighter future.

Chardog 01 Jan 2009 11:16 AM

Steve: Thanks for the update on Papi. Many are obviously concerned with his well being.

Four Cats: Thanks for your response. As far as miedication, I am not dusputing that horses need to be treated for injuries. But the rules that would be put into place in a perfect world would clearly spell out which ones are acceptable and which ones are not, based on classes of drugs. As an owner, you would know exactly which ones are not allowed, or face the consequences. There would be no excuses. Believe me, there are many out there cheat. Just because you don't see them doesnt mean it isnt happening.

As to your point about my belief that "the industry is rampant with unethical people," you sound like you are in denial. I am not blaming anyone  directly, but this industry has many problems that need to be fixed, and fixed in a hurry. The numbers don't lie. The sport's popularity is declining rapidly, many racetracks are struggling to stay afloat, tens of thousands of horses are unwanted, we have massive overbreeding, the public lacks trust in the sport, the top trainers have been repeatedly suspended for drug violations, people are wagering less, and I could go on and on. Excuse me if I want to see change in the sport. Im not going to sit here and pretend everything is fine just so I dont hurt your feelings. Is everyone a cheater? Are all owners/breeders greedy and unethical? Absolutely not. But there are plenty who are, and they have caused the sport to be in serious trouble.

jshandler 01 Jan 2009 12:31 PM

I do not think it is possible to make the argument, 'no race day' medication will accidentally punish trainers making honest mistakes, in good faith. Nor can you argue for the whip.

   Great racing circuits in Europe, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand have had these rules in effect for a long time and there it runs fairly and smooth.(They also average way more starts per race, even imported American horses race more-see Iron Horse) Since a completely successful model exists and has been replicated successfully several times, there is no valid argument against the 'no race day' medication rule. And that the best way to get it accomplished is through strict enforcement and a strong putative element. If the trainers struggling with the calendar, perhaps they can use the six month suspension to apprentice over in Europe to see how you send horses out to the track without meds. in their system.

Edward 01 Jan 2009 12:52 PM

Jason, I'm probably more aware than most of the posters as to the responsibility of a trainer regarding drug positives.

Yes, you have the repeat offenders and I'm one of the biggest critics of those people, especially the ones who thumb their noses at authority.

He** we all know which ones have contamination,accidents,  honest errors and which ones just think they are above the rules.

However, as in everything in this World, NOTHING is an absolute.

A vindictive employee (you fired his cousin for nearly injuring a horse, only you had NO IDEA the guy was his cousin and ended up returning to Mexico to abject poverty and dangers of drug lords).

You have contamination of hay you buy from a guy who has a drug user employee, who delvered the hay. Far fetched? No,  more than one trainer has proven the contamination came from there.

Horses with different levels of tolerance and ability to eliminate the legal training medications from their system, should a trainer choose to go that route.

Vets who balance along the line of propriety, once in a while stick their foot over in order to KEEP the business of trainers who may not even realize the Vet is doing something inappropriate or pushing the envelope. I didn't go to CSU, KSU or Cornell to get my Veterinary degree. I do know a lot about meds, but couldn't compare myself to a vet.

Sometimes even the best, most organized, by the book, dot your i's cross your t's guys have mix-ups and errors. Did I give that horse his____ and just forget to log it?  Crazy but it does happen, just not over and over again in the case of one trainer who used that excuse, you know who.

Outfits so big that even though you try to hire the best, most honest people, try tracking every single thing, stuff happens.

Some trainers who have been around for 30+ years have had NO drug positives, some have had some very minor situations that could have explanations I listed above. Some have proven some of the more serious charges to be totally bogus for any number of reasons.

Inaccuracies because the testing isn't accurate enough to give a minor infraction the death knell.

A universal drug policy with penalties according to the severity, the repeat offenses (also related to the severity or maybe just a repeated pattern) THAT would be just (because, nobody ever said life was fair).  

What would you say to a guy who gave a sick horse a medication, thought it was out of his system, the horse was acting fine, eating up and tearing up the barn wanting to run. The guy runs him and a minute amount of the medication remained, one of the minor ones on the lists. Say this guy had been racing for 40 years with NO positives. An across the board ban or harsh suspension would kill a guy like that and it isn't a just policy.

People wagering less? Look at the statistics for shopping this year. Look at the foreclosures, defaults and reposessions. Look at the number of failed companies, bailouts and bankruptcies. Look at the number of empty seats at sporting event all round. Look at the decrease in travel even though gas is cheapest it's been in 5 years. That is probably as much or more to blame than anything else.

People within the industry or writers like yourself carry a lot of influence with people outside of it (just look at these comments). A suggestion of cheating by a few is like a condemnation of the whole. Because human nature is to say, well if one is doing it they all must be to keep competitive. That's not true, you know it and I know it.

My suggestion is to hand the heavy penalties down to the serious offenders, to those who have repeated offenses within a short span and base it on how serious the positive is, how much it actually affects the way a horse runs.

A single commissioner, gawd no. A panel with representatives from all factions, owner, breeder, track owner, officials, fans, trainers, veterinarians,jockeys  backside workers and even turf writers. With a chairman and maybe even a couple of unbiased folks not directly involved in the industry (like the former politico the NTRA involved).

Then maybe, not guaranteeing it, they could come to a consensus opinion and get something done.

Course CD wasn't going to renew it's membership with the NTRA, may have had something to do with the new policy the tracks had to agree to and sign on for, who knows?

Atthebarn2 01 Jan 2009 1:32 PM

I would like to wish Jason, Steve, Scot, and all my fellow horse-loving bloggers a happy and blessed 2009.  May God watch over all our loved ones, and all the magnificent horses keeping them safe and sound.  

Steve thank you for taking charge of the situation with Papi Chullo -- hopefully something good will come of it.  The internet is an amazing force!  Everyone, watch the 2007 G1 Whitney if you get a chance.  In that race you had Lawyer Ron who stepped up and took control as the top older male, ultimately winning the Eclipse award.  You had Flashy Bull, Sun King, Magna Graduate, and Fairbanks who are all now retired to stud.  You had Diamond Stripes who went on to win BIG in Dubai.  And then you had our beloved Wanderin Boy, who looks FANTASTIC in that race, and he picked up second (of course!).  We all know how tragically his career ended up.  Then you had Brass Hat, who I know is very much loved by his small-time connections, and I have no doubt they will do the right thing by him.  Last but not least, you had Papi Chullo recently acquired by a conglomerate of business-men who admired his ability to sustain the grind of several graded stakes races in a row.  I believe this race was the beginning of his decline to his current 10K claimer status... wow!  

Jason, I love the passion and courage you are showing in this blog, and I look forward to reading you next year.  

Chardog, I agree with you that changes need to START in the arena of breeding.  I wish we would begin a dialogue on the topic of BREEDING, and get all the people in the know involved... that is a good way to hasten a change.  One of the problems is that the experts don't agree on which bloodlines are sound, and which are unsound, or even if breeding unsound horses results in unsound offspring.  So, it seems like it is not as easy as it looks.  As I have heard it said, Northern Dancer is the culprit, BUT you would be hard pressed to find a pedigree where the horse is NOT inbred to Northern Dancer.  Plus, there is the greed factor.  People want to breed the fashionable horse that will bring the big money at auction, and not necessarily do the right thing for the sport.  Lastly, they say breeding now is for speed over soundness, yet the horses are NOT getting any faster (??).

HS 01 Jan 2009 3:53 PM

One more thing Jason, I wish there would be a system developed that would identify at risk or injury-prone horses and get them off the racetrack.

HS 01 Jan 2009 4:42 PM

Pam: good posts. Its good to see someone stand up and admit we need the slaughter houses. Yes, I agree they need to be monitored and the animals need to be treated much more humanely but we have a mess on our hands right now. Someone mentioned in another blog I believe that T.Boone Pickens wife was her hero for saving the wild horses. Give me a break. They were the leaders in shutting down the slaughter houses and furthermore she is taking care of them for a year. Than what??? Equine problems start from conception. We have to many "so called" breeders who breed horses irresponsibly. Not just in the Thoroughbred industry but with all breeds alike. You can't give a horse away right now and I hear stories all the time of horses being neglected and turned loose because people don't want to take care of them and have no place to take them. Pam, just a word of caution on your choice of destroying your horses. This is a very dangerous situation. This may sound morbid and I will probably get attacked for this post anyway, but the bullet has been known to hit the skull and can exit anywhere, including in the direction of the person holding the gun. As an experienced horse person, you were probably aware of this, but some people don't consider it. I have had horses put down by the vet. Always here, at home, where the horse is comfortable and to me, it seems like they pass easily.

We have such a huge responsibility to these majestic animals and we are failing miserably. There are two many issues to address but we have to start somewhere and Jason, you have a good list started. 2009 needs to be a year of less talk and more action. Lets get that commissioner into place! I love this industry. What a shame it is to watch it lose its integrity.

Karen2 01 Jan 2009 6:29 PM

AtheBarn: You make good points, but cheating or "gaining an edge" is not done "by just a few." It is an epidemic in the industry and has been for some time. Like you say, mistakes and inadvertant positives will happen. Maybe across the board penalties like I proposed is not the answer. But something more than what is being done now has to happen. Change is absolutely needed in this area. If that offends you as a trainer, I apologize. That is the way I feel.

jshandler 01 Jan 2009 6:39 PM

Racing does quite well elsewhere with NO raceday meds. Even the American horses who go to Dubai fare pretty well, don't they? Did anybody else notice how many Euros were on Lasix at the BC?? Aidan O'Brien was fined for not reporting the first time Lasix use of 4 of his horses, a fact that I found buried in a DRF story and noted no where else. If we truly want a level playing field, then no race day meds is the way to go. Tougher sanctions are necessary.

We should asterik any of Pletcher's and Asmussen's records, and nobody should be rewarded with an Eclipse award in a year where they have served a suspension. As for accountability and stable size-well, if you don't like the responsiblity rule, then downsize! Yes, there are the contamination and withdrawal issues (remember Brass Hat and Dubai?). I don't know an answer for those- a great many people with much more expertise probably don't have answers for those issues. But as long as the general public believes that the only way TBs race is with drugs, we racing fans are fighting a losing battle.

JCRobinson 01 Jan 2009 7:24 PM

Good points JC Robinson.

jshandler 01 Jan 2009 8:07 PM

My wish is that Carla Gaines' Point Encounter wins the Santa Anita Derby and gives the west a good shot at the Kentucky Derby. His opening day SA Maiden score as a two year old looked fantastic (95 Beyer).

Householder 01 Jan 2009 10:22 PM

Jason, No need to apologize for your opinion. I'm not offended personally because I'm not an offender myself, maybe I'm offended for the industry as a whole though.

By saying it's epidemic seems you're saying that 90-95% of trainers are KNOWINGLY violating the drug policy.

Truthfully, if I believed as many of you seem to, I'd stay as far away from this sport as I possibly could. Then I'd try to find a sport where there isn't a single modicum of cheating of any kind, or drug use going on. Good luck with that.

There are many drugs that are banned on race day, many that are required to stop a certain # of days out (antibiotics for one) like Todd and his BC positive. Stupid on his part, but it's penicillin Procaine, a Class 3 violation because it is a commonly used antibiotic and the Procaine is incidental to the antibiotic ,

not like a Class 2 local anesthetic like mepivacaine. He said his vet was confident it would be out of the horse's system since the last dose was on Oct 6 more than the 14 days it takes to get out of the system and before the BC.  Do we really think a guy like Todd would knowingly do something, on the day when everyone KNEW that testing would be done. He's not the kind to thumb his nose at authority, and he‘s not dumb. He has a huge outfit, a couple of positives, he has run in Dubai several times. Yes Todd had a Class 2 violation, so I'm not excusing him, he still swears he was innocent even after he served the suspension. But it's not like he has multiples year after year or in the same year and is saying he's too big to be touched.

Asmussen has run in Dubai as well, but the difference between the two guys, he had multiple positives a year or so ago and served his suspensions concurrently. Rick, well his history and the way he flaunts it and excuses it by accusing others is what bothers me about him.

But I really am not sure that all this talk of epidemic, big name trainers violating constantly isn't inflammatory and actually incorrect. You yourself had Dr. Rick Arthur on here, you yourself told us he was one of the foremost experts on drugging and HE said it's a small percentage and most of them, as far as HE is concerned are honest mistakes. Now what do you want me to believe Jason?

Because when I was arguing against steroid use and the positive effects it has on runners, you pulled Dr. Arthur into the disagreement about Big Brown.

As a matter of fact, I think if we have one accidental positive, no matter how innocuous, like an antibiotic remaining in a horse's system longer than a vet assured it should have, then it'll still be a blanket condemnation of the industry. That's what people like to do. Why? I really don't know.

People thinking they're saving the horses? Where are all these  'people' when I'm trying to find a home for a retiring racehorse or broodmare? Why do I end up with so many of them or finding homes for mine, but mostly for other folks?

Why do you all think it's epidemic when  the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium feels they are close to a national policy and this is their take on it:

"What I can say is that with each year, we’ve improved the situation,” said Dr. Scot Waterman, executive director of the consortium. “We’re closer now in having a uniformity of the rules and penalties.”

Waterman said that he believed most veterinarians and trainers in the sport were playing by the rules.

“It’s a fairly small percentage of people pushing the envelope,” Waterman said.

That is what I sincerely believe. Especially at the bigger tracks, can't answer for the smaller circuits though.

I guess if you condemn every positive, then you have to condemn nearly everyone. Nick, one of the foremost advocates of horse rescue along with Kim, has had a few. Wayne Lukas has had a few, and consider that these guys and others like them who have had positives have been doing this for longer than you or most of the posters on here have been alive, then I guess we can maybe understand and forgive a few mistakes over a  really long career or not if we're going to just try to nail people.  

If you want to condemn them, give a death sentence to their careers, then start with the Dutrow’s of the world with at least one positive every year for around 9 years.

Atthebarn2 01 Jan 2009 10:22 PM

AttheBarn: I dont think naming specific trainers and each of their violatons is important in this discussion. We all know who the high-profile guys are and what their infractions have been. What is important is cleaning up the sport. Making excuses about whether its a Class II or Class III doesnt solve anything. If the drug is illegal, whether it is within certain doses or before/after a certain number of days of the race, is irrelevent. The rules are there for a reason. They must be followed. All Im saying is, when they are not followed, make the penalties more severe. If not, we will have the same garbage year after year. If you dont punish violators tough enough, there is no deterrant. That simple.

I dont know where you get a number like 90 or 95% in order for something to be an epidemic. Steroids, by example, were used by an estimated 25% of baseball players during its high point. It was still considered an epidemic b/c it affected the integrity of the sport. I have no idea what percentage of trainers are skirting the rules, but what I do know is that every infraction gives horse racing another black eye. And it has to stop. TOUGHER PENALTIES is the only answer. If some trainers cannot be accountable for their own stables b/c they are too large, then like someone earlier said, downsize!

jshandler 01 Jan 2009 10:40 PM

I'm the first to advocate tougher penalties, I've preached that on here and other places for a long time. I just hope some common sense would be used.

The reason I addressed specific trainers was in answer to those who wanted an * by Todd and Steven's records, or want to fry people for positives no matter the circumstances, no other reason.

The days out and the Class of violation IS totally significant, under the rules that are now in place. That's what determines everything from days, to $'s. Now if you're saying no therapeutic drug treatment EVER, take the horse home and off the track then it would be irrelevant. Although WHAT would happen to all those horses when they couldn't run because they had treatment for a fever and had to be taken off the track for 3 months just to make sure they won't test positive. THAT is why they have classifications. Just like controlled substances in human medications have classifications.

My interpretation of an epidemic and yours obviously differs. That's fine, I'm just sort of disbelieving of the blanket accusations, not even necessarily you but others on here.

Atthebarn2 01 Jan 2009 11:25 PM

Jason,  "If some trainers cannot be accountable for their own stables b/c they are too large, then like someone earlier said, downsize!"

That's sort of saying no opportunity at free enterprise. Umm sort of advocating Communism vs. Capitalism.

Then you'd have trainers like Larry Jones, just quit because it's not fair and you can't decide WHO to tell to get lost.

Can you honestly say that because there's been one guy using marijuana and suspended from the NBA for violation of their drug policy, that you suspect every singe guy of using marijuana? Or that every guy who hits a homerun is immediately under suspicion for steroid use? That's a pretty narrow and subjective point of view.

Like Atthe said, when we were all saying how steroid affected a horse's performance, we were shouted down by a number on here and an 'expert' was brought on as Q&A to prove it.  

Bradgm 01 Jan 2009 11:35 PM

I also believe that every trainer out there understands the trainer accountablity rule. Just reasonable people do understand that there can be extenuating circumstances, right?

Bradgm 01 Jan 2009 11:36 PM

Jason and Atthebarn you both made good points but I do have to agree with Atthe about why these drugs are classified on different levels. It would be nice to get to a level like Europe but it's going to take awhile. In the meantime, rules are being changed for the better.

While I applaud all the people who are concerned over Papi Chullo, it's a bit of a stretch to think that they would sell the horse after just claiming him. I would wait till he drops down and get someone with a license to claim him. Sort of like what they did with Rick's Natural Star years ago. I remember that one cause I wrote to the Bloodhorse and they published my comments. For those of you who don't know the story, his owner ran him in the BC at Woodbine. He was a claimer and had no business being in there. I believe he next ran in NM and two gentleman got together and claimed him,retired him to a farm in Kentucky. You have to remember this was long before the average person really cared.

Bottom line people is that your donations would be better served at your local rescue agency. These people are doing what they can, when they can and you can see the results first hand. Please don't get me wrong and please don't respond with " what are you doing?" I bought a 4 yr old filly in Oct that was headed for the packing plant 20 miles from where she was stabled. She is at my mom's now, pasture sound and will be bred in the spring. She is stakes placed and her mother was a stakes winner but she had the bad luck to break down{soft tissue} and they didn't think she was worth breeding.

Wow this is a long one for me Jason! Must be cause it's -24C and I got no reason to go out and about.

Wanda 02 Jan 2009 11:29 AM

Jason,

I truly do understand where you're coming from on the medication issue, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I am well aware that there are plenty of people trying to "take an edge". ButI also often feel that some of the so-called "cheaters" always seem to be one step ahead of the lab, (for instance those using EPO or "milkshaking"). I don't know if I would consider someone having a bad test for a routinely used therapeutic medication a "cheater", especially those who run thousands of horses over the course of a season.

I never had a drug violation when I was training (almost 20 years), but I had a small stable and did all of the work myself (grooming, hot walking, feeding, etc.). Either I or my vet administered all of the medication. Even so, I once had to scratch a horse because after I entered her I remembered that she had been administered a little tranquilizer several days earlier. Race day would have been one day short of the recommended clearance time. Luckily I realized it before she ran. Maybe it wouldn't have tested (if I was extremely lucky), but I can't imagine getting ruled off forever for that.

Also, I have worked in several large outfits and I can tell you that no matter how careful you try to be mistakes are going to happen, especially when horses are shipping from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. There were times when I received horses from out-of-town stables and struggled to find out what they had been given and when because whoever had them didn't remember to write it down. So it wasn't my ship that needed tightening. But if I had run one and ended up with a bad test I would have paid the price. I would try to wait several weeks to run them in that circumstance, just to be on the safe side, but you can't wait forever. I only raced up and down the east coast and know how confusing it could be. I can only imagine when you're shipping all over the world. It only takes one person to forget to log something. I don't know about every state, but here in Maryland we already have the "absolute insurer" rule which holds the trainer responsible for a medication violation no matter what.

Atthebarn2 also makes a good point about former employees. I've known trainers who wouldn't fire anyone no matter how bad they were because they were afraid of retaliation, and many more who did fire them if need be but lost a lot of sleep worrying about it.

I also agree with Atthebarn2 that the classification system for violations is correct. I absolutely agree that we have to go after the repeat offenders. But I also agree that the punishment should fit the crime. There's a huge difference between therapeutic medication and "performance enhancing" drugs.

I have often wondered if the claiming rules should be changed to encourage people to give their horses the time they need. I was told once by another trainer that he liked to claim horses off me after a layoff because they had been given the time they needed. That's fine. It's the way the game is played and I knew that going in, so I'm not complaining.

I always preferred to turn them out if need be and luckily I had owners who were also willing to do so. That's one of the advantages of a small stable. But I'm not naive enough to think that every horse who needs time off rather than medication will get it, especially the claiming horses.

Further, I wonder if one of racing's (public relations) problems is that very often as soon as a high-profile trainer is suspended he or she hires a lawyer and gets an injunction. Years can go by before the case is even heard. But this is America. They're innocent until proven guilty. Even with a zero-tolerance policy, I don't know how that would be stopped, so they would still be running horses after the bad test, at least for a while (years?). I don't even know that it should be stopped, even though personally, as a small-time trainer, it frustrated me to see it. Everyone is entitled to his or her day in court.

I remember years ago quite a few trainers in California were suspended and the illegal substance turned out to be a weed that was in the straw in the test barn. Some of the more well-to-do trainers hired lawyers and fought it, but I believe some of the less wealthy ones had already served their days. I assume with the zero-tolerance policy these people would have been reinstated, but what if nobody had really looked into it and discovered the problem? Their reputations would be ruined and they would have lost their livelihood for nothing. It's not like you can refuse to take your horse to the test barn. If it happened there, it could happen anywhere to anybody.

To me, there's a lot to consider. It's for these reasons, and more, that I am so wary of zero-tolerance.

Cheryl from Maryland 02 Jan 2009 11:43 AM

Just read Pam's comments from Jan/01 when she said she worked in a vet clinic and helped put animals down. Where the heck did you work that they did such a bad job that the animals "struggled"? I've held horses that were put down and let me tell you they don't struggle and if done right is VERY humane. They are given 2 shots, one to put them under and the second one to stop the heart. When you post stuff like that you upset people that don't know how these things are done.You upset me for gosh sakes Pam when you say you tranquilize them then use a gun. The rest of your post about slaughter plants is correct. I've seen the one south of where I live and they are looked after very well. They stay in the feed lot for 30 days which is required by law so that any drugs given is out of their system . I agree that you can't save them all and shutting down these plants in the US has left alot of unwanted horses. So now they are shipped to our plants or Mexico. Nobody saw THAT one coming did they?

Wanda 02 Jan 2009 1:35 PM

After two years, and the way in which progress has been developing, our sport would benefit from a central authority or czar or commissioner...

aspradling 02 Jan 2009 2:24 PM

Brad: Umm, no...it's not like capitalism vs. communism. Not even close to the point I was making. My point is, if a trainer cannot trust their employees to inject their horses with an illegal drug, then maybe the operation has gotten too big. Nowhere did I say that people should be forced to have smaller stables.

Your comment about every person in the NBA and MLB using drugs is also way off base. I made it clear that not everyone is the industry cheats, but it is still a major problem that we need to solve. Please read all of the comments - not just the one you want to read - and do not take them out of context.

jshandler 02 Jan 2009 3:58 PM

Wow, lots of good points.

Wanda, too bad you're freezing up there.

One thing though, we have a friend in charge of the nightmare of monitoring the horses shipped to Mexico. Believe it or not they only allow a certain # per a given time period. What the heck happens to the rest of them? A death in a Mexican slaughterhouse (even more vicious and cruel than America's) vs a slow even more painful death of starvation? I don't know about what all gets shipped up to Canada, think there's still 7 plants up that way.

I do know that I've been approached by your friend and ours to take another, think at this point I'm leaving it with him and paying, Brad, Jordan and I have 3 others that we support right now. Brad also sends money to the horse rescue on top of it.

As for the person who talked about

'testing' the horses to predict catastrophic breakdowns. Nashoba's Key was apparently totally healthy and sound, freak  accident in her outdoor pen(actually not so much because a big time trainer had a similar thing happen in a stall, hear it alot). Eight Belles was presumably sound. All Derby runners are checked out before they run and the vet can scratch them (a lot of big races do that, did it at the BC as  a matter of fact Cost of Freedom I think)

Cheryl, Right, although it's kind of like the people who are on trial in this country. Those who have the public defender don't have the same chance as the guys with the high profile lawyer.

This drug violation thing, the Class of drugs etc is similar to criminal activity, the more severe the crime, the more severe the penalty.

As far as Jason saying Classification and days out have no bearing, I disagree. The reason they set those classifications and number of days out they can be used is so there's a STANDARDIZATION. Stinks when a horse SHOULD be okay from PEN PRO (just like what your dentist gives for an abscess) and then is still positive.

If we have zero tolerance with NO exceptions then we better start cloning horses to make sure they all react the same to therapeutic meds, because that's what Pen Pro/ProVK is. Otherwise it's like executing the jaywalker, same as the serial killer.

Karen2, What do you do with the horse you euthanize at home?

Many states no longer have carcass disposal or pick up and it's illegal to bury them on your property. Maybe if you have a huge ranch like Katsan talked about having and surreptitiously burying them there, like they've done some of there old timers they had forever. If not then what?

BIGHORSEFAN 02 Jan 2009 4:45 PM

Jason I did read every single comment. That's why it took me so long to post.

My comment was in direct response to yours, "If some trainers cannot be accountable for their own stables b/c they are too large, then like someone earlier said, downsize!" if I interpreted that differently than you meant it, then sorry.

However, I didn't interpret Atthebarns comment to mean that an employee wasn't controlled from injecting horses with 'illegal' drugs.  A lot of the positives are for drugs that are LEGAL, some that are even legal on race days at certain levels or like some cases are legal within a certain number of days prior to the race.

I took it as s**t happens no matter how careful you are.

And yes Capitalism allows people to own property (horses)and do with it as they will, give responsibility to whoever they choose. Communism or maybe you prefer the term Socialism or  Economic egalitarianism equal standing and equal access to all the economic resources in terms of economic power, wealth, and contribution.  Maybe a reach but that's saying that if someone has 300 horses and has a Class 3 positive, he shouldn't be running a stable that big.  

That no trainer should have more than 25 horses in a barn, since that's all they can realistically monitor individually and keep in the same locale.

THAT premise inhibits their ability to practice free enterprise.

My response about the NBA and the MLB was directly related to your comment about steroid use perceived as becoming epidemic, with ony a 25% usage and Atthebarn's assertion that even ONE positive will cause a lot of people to beat the subject to death.

Just sort of saying that people(not necessarily you) perceive and interpret things whatever way they want to do. Sort of an agreement with some that a lot of people are just searching, sitting and waiting for something to happen.

Bradgm 02 Jan 2009 5:04 PM

Yes Big,the plants in Alta and Sask are still in business and you know I used to turn my head if I went past the one in Fort Macleod but since I've seen the operation I'm not so sensitive about it. You can imagine all sorts of things about anything unpleasant but the reality can be quite different. Would I send one there if I couldn't find it a good home? Yes I would and have done it in the past.

You should see this filly I bought. She's going sound and my 82 yr old mom sits at her big picture window and watches her all day. That's the main reason I bought her at all, something for my mom to look at. She's going to a cutting horse in March to get bred, hows that for a crazy match! We get her the next year to breed and I'm thinking Gilded Time cause he stands just outside Calgary. Here's hoping!

I got the heater in the igloo to work but it's melting the walls now. I should go out and see if the snowmobile will start cause if the walls come down the polar bears will get me no doubt.

Wanda 02 Jan 2009 5:38 PM

Bighorsefan, come on... bringing up Nashoba's Key (one of my favorites, BTW) is ridiculous.  She got PO'd one morning and kicked a wall in -- she was known for her hot temper.  That is nothing like identifying a horse at risk for breaking down on the track and not allowing it to race.  I am glad you mentioned Cost of Freedom.

HS 02 Jan 2009 6:13 PM

Cheryl, Trainer responsibility is universal.

Stiffer penalites for those who deserve it, common sense in determining who deserves it and who doesn't.

Incidentals, errors bad luck in getting it out of the system? Only if it's a pattern of abuse and not just an incident 2 or 3 times in a 20-40 year career.

The severity of the violation or Class, that's extremely important.

The frequency?  Much lower than is being claimed on here.  Useful articles and statistics on that are abundant.

 Here's the website of one that explains what drugs are in the classes what their use is for and which ones have no place on the track and what's beneficial and how rare illegal drug use actually is, not the imagined hypercritical thoughts. Same as Dr Arthur reported when Jason asked, same as the RMT consortium.

Might be an interesting read for anyone who really wants to speak knowledgeably on the subject and see just what we all have to go through to stay within the legal and ethical parameters. www.netpets.org/.../race.html

As for me, my number one violation to garner a severe punishment is 'milkshaking' it has no benefit other than to try and make a horse run faster. Class 1's are illegal drugs, agreed no place on the track course one is Cocaine and lots of $100 have traces of cocaine, why would a race track issue a license to a cocaine, marijuana etc user? 2's are some illegal some therapeutic, 3&4 only therapeutic and 5 no real consequence.

Whatamidoing 02 Jan 2009 7:04 PM

I can see as well what Brad is saying. The more horses we can train the better we can provide for our families and the better we can pay our employees and hire more.

The temptation will always be there to have a big stable because that's the basis of the American Dream and entrepreneurs every where, and that after all is what a trainer is.

It's tough to manage, just like any business. Speaking of which, most of us are doing a heck of a lot better job at it than your pro sports team owners, bankers or automakers.

Whatamidoing 02 Jan 2009 7:13 PM

Wanted to clarify my comment. Milkshaking is the #1 violation that I would like to see punished severely, no unintentional or accidental overages there.

Didn't want it to sound like MY violation,I have none.

Whatamidoing 02 Jan 2009 8:12 PM

HS, she was  one of my favorites as well. Carla is one of my favorite people in the whole world.

I brought it up to point out that ANYTHING can happen at ANY time. These are high strung fragile animals and the person who said they should all be tested to make sure nothing will happen to them, needs to realize even the soundest animal can have a freak accident on the track or on the backside.

Not that every horse who breaks down or dies was unsound, like the poster intimated.

BIGHORSEFAN 02 Jan 2009 8:20 PM

Wanda, a tasty little treat for the bears? Lord I hope not! No Wanda dreamcicles, please bear!

That is so cool (no pun intended) that you Mom can babysit for you and get that enjoyment. They are funny little animals aren't they?

Not such an odd match. I had a friend of a friend years ago who had a gelding by one of the greatest cutting horses ever, in Canada (shoot, name escapes me, think it was Poco Tivio, sound right?) that was the best horse ever. Carried her to some championships in College in roping, goat tying, team roping and barrel racing. The epitome of

an all around horse.

Came from British Columbia way out in the wilderness.

BIGHORSEFAN 02 Jan 2009 8:28 PM

Not sure about that cutting horse Big,that's my sister's thing cutting,reining etc. I'll ask her if it was a horse from Douglas Lake Cattle Company. That was the big outfit in the interior of BC in those days.

I agree with what you were trying to say about testing horses for problems.S*** happens and that's all you can say about that. I wish people could see that this isn't an easy fix. It will never be black and white.

Wanda 02 Jan 2009 9:58 PM

Since we just returned from bothering the grandchildren in Vermont, I turned the computer on and realize I'm probably coming late to this party........ HOWEVER, here goes, and I guarantee I'm going to piss off a LOT of folks out there.

Jason, all your hopes for 2009 are spot on, but far too kind. Hope #1 (for me) should read NO DRUGS OF ANY KIND. That's it. NO DRUGS. If a horse needs to rest, recuperate, recover or just take some time out, then that's what happens. If drugs are required for any of the nicks, dings, injuries then fine.....use them to help the horse recover. But NO HORSE in "good health" and prepping for a race (never mind running!) has ANY drugs, and that includes Lasix. Don't throw rocks at me..... most other breeds DO NOT bleed after exercise, extreme or otherwise, so what have we done to create this problem in the TB and how can it be fixed?

That question leads to your hope #2. Breeders had better start realizing that NOT every mare should be bred NOR should every stallion become a sire. Run fast? GREAT! But examine the physical history of your choices and if bucked shins, crappy feet, bowed tendons, OCD's, bleeding, or any of the other problems we hear so much about (and LOTS we don't!) appear to be not only present, but also chronic, then don't breed the damn horse. We all know of sires that produce lousy feet, so don't say we can't get information like that. While the very thought of gelding makes the guys cross their eyes and legs and go "OUCH", it is a relatively easy surgery to perform. "Spaying", on the other hand, is not. It is dangerous, complicated and expensive. Just remember it takes two to tango, and if your mare runs with a gelding I would bet she is pretty much foal free........ The reason we have too many horses is that breeders have been trying to cash in on the huge dollars spent at auctions. Fair enough, but rather than have four yearlings that go back home because their reserves weren't met, why not go for the very best you can manage for the one best mare you have?? Yeah, yeah, yeah...color me a dreamer, but there it is.

As to hope #3, as a racing czar we need the nastiest bastard to come down the pike and he/she needs to understand racing at all levels: breeding, auctions, wagering, etc. We really do NOT need a Steinbrenner to advertise racing; we need Attila the Hun to clean up racing and the results will advertise themselves.

OK, 'nuf said. My rant is done ("thank goodness" you all say) and I'll shut up.

I really do hope for a much better year for everyone and most of all for my equine friends everywhere. 'Cause if it doesn't get better, my friends, I don't think the general public will forgive another Eight Belles incident.........I wouldn't take the grandkids to the track either if I thought they would see that!

Happy new year.......

needler in Virginia 02 Jan 2009 11:20 PM

Wanda It was around 20 years ago that they first got him, he was relatively old then, like 15 and they paid a bunch of money for him. He was old by TB standards but not as a rodeo horse goes, they don't even start hauling them usually until they're 5-6 years old and keep riding them as long as they love it and are healthy and sound. Heard of some great rope horses at the NFR in their late 20's.  This horse was pretty long term and died from old age and an asthma attack of all things, at like age 32. They babied him all of the time they had him, wetting down grass hay for him, hauling his own water source from home, course their horses almost all live well into their 30's they take exceptional care of them all their lives. He was still winning and loving it into his 20's.

Had another one that won a national championship for a little girl at 27, he died at age 35, still bucking and playing.

My heroes actually.

BIGHORSEFAN 02 Jan 2009 11:30 PM

Wanda, it WAS Poco Tivio, the greatest offspring of Poco Bueno. NOt a Canadian QH, One of the top cutting horses ever, top AQHA performers ever.  Carried a gene for connective tissue disease.

Know this is off subject Jason, sorry.

BIGHORSEFAN 02 Jan 2009 11:40 PM

Mr. Shandler I agree with everything you said. Putting down horses because they can't run or because no one wants them makes me sick. Maybe we should slow down on breeding horses for starters so we can care for the ones we have. The whole situation is immoral IMO.  This is a very real problem and turns off even those of us who love racing and it prevents those who might like it from getting enthused. I think that providing some sort of financial mechanism for their support is a good idea. I could never put a horse down because it couldn't run. Finding it a suitable home would be my number one mission in life and I would care for it until I could do so. If I couldn't afford to implement this as a policy, I wouldn't stay in the business.

Paula Higgins 03 Jan 2009 12:48 AM

A Czar is important or the sport will continue to decline.  As far as trainers cheating and using drugs illegally get rid of them.  3 times and your out. Very simple.  No excuses.  You can't control your barn get out of the business. Get caught with cocaine or snake venom your out of racing period.  You want a real sport get rid of the cheaters.

Draynay 03 Jan 2009 12:49 PM

whatamidoing-Thanks for the link to netpets.org. I think I'll print it out to show to those who are convinced that everyone cheats.

Cheryl from Maryland 03 Jan 2009 4:38 PM

Brad, Cheryl, AttheBarn, Wanda, BigHorseFan and all the others who have commented on drugs. This is the last comment I will have on the subject of cheating. I respect all of your opinions, but I believe you are missing the point.

I believe, it is not about HOW MANY people are cheating and at WHAT LEVEL. The issue is that there is lack of trust amongst the public in this sport and we are losing fans as a result. We must put an end to  ALL cheating to regain that. Tough drug rules are needed if we are going to change things. I, like most, am tired of hearing about the high-profile trainers being busted for positives. I don't care what class level the drugs are, all violations are bad for the sport. If you can't follow the rules or control your employees, too bad. You have to pay the consequences. Like others have said, these strict rules work fine in almost every other major place of racing around the world - Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and Europe. No more excuses!

jshandler 03 Jan 2009 4:49 PM

I totally respect your view on this but you also must respect ours.Some of us look at it not from the public's point of view but from the insiders view. Nothing wrong with either argument is there? Hey it's great that we can all get together and talk about this in a sensible manner.

Wanda 03 Jan 2009 4:59 PM

There have been 5 breakdowns in the first 6 days of the meet on Santa Anita's new "Pro-Ride."  3 of the 5 had to be euthanized.  Should the CHRB have required more research before mandating all CA tracks to switch to synthetics? And as far as # 3 "A racing CZAR." Bo Derek now sits on the CHRB who in her own words "knows very little about the industry" but has spent the majority of her years campaining for the safety of wild horses.

Householder 03 Jan 2009 5:24 PM

Jason, We all respect your point of view. If we didn't we wouldn't even bother to address it. Just figure you were a crackpot and ignore you.

The last things I have to say is if people choose to paint ANYTHING with the same brush because of even one incident then that would verify 3 things.

1 even the most incidental or innocuous incident would cause an entire sport to be condemned.

If people are so focused on dissecting things to that level, they will find fault with

SOMETHING, ANYTHING, because that is the nature of a negative person.

2 If we assume that one person in racing 'cheats' and therefore assume all cheat. Then conversely must we assume that if one sports figure cheats, they all cheat. If one husband cheats on his wife, all of them do. If one financial advisor bilked people out of billions, they all are doing that. If one politician is a crook then they all must be (maybe not the best example. But I still hold out hope)

Yes you'll always have the negative nabobs, the folks who see the glass as half empty or those who are so danged miserable they only want to see everyone as negatively as possible so the world can be perceived as negatively as they themselves feel.  But I for ONE choose to see that things can happen, sport mirrors LIFE and as we know, LIFE sure isn't perfect.

Kind of like Atthebarn said if people think that negatively, find something that's perfect, with no cheating, errors or human foibles involved.

3 If people are that smallminded and petty, does anyone really want to seek out their interest in the sport? They'll always be searching for things to rag on.

We aren't arguing against appropriate punishment for TRUE CHEATS, we just seem to be saying that you can never get rid of the human element, either IN the sport or those who, instead of enjoying it, have an AGENDA.

Those kinds, if they have this perfect little sport you propose, will lose interest and move on to their next negativity in life.

My opinion is coming as a Gambler, handicapper and a person basically on the periphery of racing.

BIGHORSEFAN 03 Jan 2009 6:03 PM

Needler, good thing if you don't take your grandkids. Even the soundest, healthiest most well cared for, totally drug free race horse has the potential to break down. They are fragile, they are high strung.

Even in countries where there are no drugs or  no 'inferior breeding' horses have break downs. Besides, it's an industry predicated on the evil gambling, they sell alcohol. Best not to damage their psyche or a persons gentler sensibilities with all that ancillary corruption.

Plus that brings up a point.

Eight Belles had no drugs in her system, per the necropsy. One of the most honest people ever in racing said he never gave her drugs (1 very questionable positive in 25+ years,  that a disgruntled employee was probably responsible for). Don't really think she had any soundness issues, they would have been quickly revealed with a very big man (Larry) on her back day in and day out.

So racing obviously cannot provide the perfect little world so many desire, move on to something else. Involving horses?

Rodeo, oops no, poor calves, bulls and horses. Horse Shows, oops no, sliders on reining horses, torn suspensories and stifles. Hunter/Jumpers, nope you have broken legs, horses falling and oh so incidentally riders being paralyzed and killed same as eventing.  

Well Needler you could take em to dog shows, uh no don't even get me started on the puppy mills and breeding practices.

Hey, Nascar, now lots of them cheat too but the cars can’t feel anything and it’s only a human being who gets killed or injured.

As far as the drug issue. Most of those doing the loudest screaming,  are not, nor have they ever been fans of the sport. They aren’t the ones who regularly attend and bet on racing and have done so for years. Although some gamblers scream that the drugs caused their horse to lose, never when their horse wins and MOST have zero compassion when a horse breaks down (forgive me, those on here who are gamblers who obviously do care, you and we know which ones you are)

Those people who are the ones who have attended the races for years, are involved in the industry DO also want stiffer penalties, do want non therapeutic meds to carry very serious consequences. We do want a ban on race day meds, but we also want some common sense exercised.

A realization that sometimes things beyond our control occur, that mistakes happen, that outside sources sometimes influence the outcome. Zero tolerance can only occur like some said, if this was a perfect world,

But, guess what guys this obviously isn’t that.

Katsan 03 Jan 2009 6:24 PM

Draynay, say goodbye to your favorite horse's trainer.

Cocaine? stop the drug trafficking into this country and the rich folks who use hundred dollar bills from coming to the races because any of us who touches one of them has the potential to contaminate.

Cobra venom, milkshaking, ABSOLUTELY, ZERO TOLERANCE. No accidentals involved in milkshaking and unless there's an actual cobra in the barn, no contamination possible.

Therapeutic drugs to treat illness, like fevers or coughs or mild soreness (like we get when we over exercise or kick up our heels a bit too much.) or colic treatments for a horse who happened to get it once or twice (chronic, take them off the track)

Like I said on part 1 of my post, another one telling us what to do when, after repeated questions, can never say what race track he actually ever attended. One who STRONGLY advocated the use of steroids in humans and horses, after stating they DO NOT affect a horse and it's performance, even in a referred manner. Improved appetite= better training, better performance.

Katsan 03 Jan 2009 6:34 PM

Wanda ... ? What are you talking about?  It is black and white. You cheat your out.  You drug a horse with cocaine or snake venom or milkshake them your done and out of the sport. Cheating is cheating.  You get caught good bye.  Find a new sport like pro wrestling.

Draynay 03 Jan 2009 6:51 PM

BigHorseFan: When I have had to have a horse put down at home, they are buried on our place. I have two of them along with a few dogs.

Karen2 03 Jan 2009 9:22 PM

Big referred to me when talking about burying horses on the place.

Our state, most counties it's illegal. You can apply for an exemption but right now there is a moratorium on removal in our biggest city. This is a horse poor state. There are more cattle, horses, sheep, dogs and wildlife than there are people.

So that's great Karen2. Unfortunately many States don't allow that. Since we're looking at this as a whole and not just a case by case basis, it just doesn't work out.

Katsan 03 Jan 2009 10:55 PM

Draynay, were you addressing me maybe? Don't think Wanda commented on anything other than applying common sense. We know who has that on here and in life.

I think the consensus of HORSE RACING people on HERE and at the track is that absolutely, Cobra Venom and Milkshaking both require stiff penalties.

Cocaine? TOO many trainers have proven faulty test results and/or contamination of hay or feed, from an outside source.

Once again, you were a huge advocate of and excused the use of steroids, saying they had no effect. Guess the folks who banned them almost universally are wrong.

Plus read the web site the RACE HORSE TRAINER provided on Classification and penalties. If a trainer/vet can't provide a case that clears them, they ARE suspended. Most of the cocaine violations are hard to uphold because of the minute amounts found and the seemingly epidemic use of it by outsiders (and even some of the track folks, like a certain couple of people you may have heard of) who have ancillary contact with hay, feed, etc.

Kind of funny to read from the guy who defended steroid use in humans and horses, the guy who excused and defended one of the worst repeat offenders in the game, now on here preaching this NEW theory.

If YOU are representative of the fans that will leave because of their outrage at 'cheating', good riddance.

Katsan 03 Jan 2009 11:09 PM

Katsan... its simple steroids are no longer legal in most cases.  What was true last year is not true this year.

Steroids are used daily in Medicine to help with numerous problems people have every day.  Steroids when used correctly have proven to help in many situations. But lets stick to the subject which is trainers cheating.  The industry needs to take it serious and get rid of those who cheat. Get rid of them no matter who they are. The sport has been in decline for years and its easy to see why when people do not believe they are getting a fair race and star horses are retired now after 10 or fewer races. Win a G1 and retire the horse?  Your answer Katsan is for me to leave if I don't like the cheating ? You have to be kidding...

Draynay 04 Jan 2009 12:43 AM

To KATSAN.........I know exactly what you mean, Kat. We showed Goldens for over 20 years and, like you, I don't even want to go to the subject of puppy mills and jackass breeders. But you and I have heard all the stupid arguments...I'll just leave THAT here. We owned a lovely little bitch who had two 5 point majors by the time she was a year old. When we took the OFA films we found dysplasia and I had her spayed right then. NO WAY was I going to go down that road no matter how nice she was. But if you have been in dogs you know how often that does NOT happen. The same argument applies to horses.... especially a breed with an ever-shrinking gene pool. I'll repeat (and I think you and I are saying the same thing here) NOT EVERY ANIMAL SHOULD BE BRED BE IT DOG OR CAT OR HORSE OR GERBIL OR HAMSTER OR MOUSE OR FRUITBAT!!! Nature takes care of the weak and we, as caretakers of domestic animals, should be at least as responsible as nature.

And I will not take the kids to the track, but I WILL take 'em to the backside at Saratoga any day we can go!! You really do meet the best people there and you get to see some pretty amazing examples of walking art.

Cheers to all, and happy new year!

needler in Virginia 04 Jan 2009 11:20 AM

Just my two cents..

I show and run Salukis (in performance events)..In the dog show world one has to be a responsible breeder to suceed and produce puppies only from healthy parents and when homes are line up. Any dog with 1 testicle is neutered and can't show. I do heart and thyroid tests before breeding.

I breed only Salukis that can run well as well as show. I don't breed any dog or bitch before age 4 to make sure there are no health issues

I think this could be a model for horse breeders.

Geld ridglings -no matter what their pedigrees are.

Remove from stud any Stallion that produces unhealthy or unsound offspring. Breed only mares that are healthy, sound and whose family has shown racing ability. No drugs - no breeding fillys or colts before age 4 or 5...

AnneM 04 Jan 2009 1:14 PM

If we want the perfect setup that they have in Europe we have to change the way we train horses here. They do not stable at the track,we do. So here's the deal, if you cannot have a vet do any work involving meds ie,the use of needles at the track for anything including colic or any illness then you are in a tough spot. It's easy to say ban everything but if a policy is in place like that then you ban all the things that are out there for legit reasons. Do you get where I'm going? It works in Europe because each trainer has his own yard. He can give what he needs to give and so give the horse the time off and to have meds cleared from his system.

I'm talking about legit meds NOT cobra vemon or milkshaking. Do you see where I'm going with this? The big picture is still the big picture.

Wanda 04 Jan 2009 1:45 PM

No Draynay, My suggestion to you is that since you pick and choose what you support then you will always find something to complain about.

You have said that all trainers are dumb, all trainers cheat, no trainer knows what their horses would do, within the time I've been reading your comments, at one time or another. Since trainers are the ones managing the horses, choosing their races and the ones with ultimate responsibility my thought is you dislike trainers so much you want to see them all fried.

 What every reasonable person, who is involved in racing or even the few who aren't are saying is: There has to be some common sense about it. A lot of the argument on here seems to be saying that anyone who has a violation should be penalized to the max. Regardless of the type of violation or any extenuating, mitigating circumstances.

That is not real life. Real life is stuff that happens that shouldn't. Not because people are cheating but because 'sh**' happens.

Class 1 violations, ARE handled in the most serious manner, but like anything else in AMERICA people are supposedly innocent until proven guilty and have a right to defend themselves. If they can prove the test was faulty or inaccurate (that happens more than anyone on here would care to believe) or if they can prove there was malicious tampering or incidental contamination (as in the most minute traces of cocaine found in some big name trainers horses, the samples were 'lost' and the traces were so small that it was less than what is found on nearly every, in circulation hundred $ bill out there).

If it was okay to use steroids just because they were legal, then the moral and ethical factor is forgotten? THAT is what makes a cheater a REAL cheater. The blatant disregard of what is right for the horse whether the drug is legal or not..

The people who AREN'T of the CHEATER mentality and only use therapeutic drugs on their horses and get a positive due to an incidental, contamination or drug not getting out of the system due to the horse's own ability to eliminate it, why should they be treated the same as those who are cheaters over and over and just don't give a da*n what anyone thinks? They should not, but under your theory, they would be.

Those people who have had some violations, even the biggest, don't have a pattern or a history of it, therefore, maybe just maybe it wasn't an intent to cheat at all, just something that happened.

Bet you're the kind of guy who would say if you don't like a certain type of person (like a trainer) that the guy executed for a murder he didn't commit probably did something deserving of the punishment anyway.

Most of the trainers on here have never had a violation, some of us older ones are hay, oats and water folks with the occasional poultice or rub . Yes if we have a horse with a cough, sniffles or a fever, we call a vet and the drug of choice is Pen Procaine. What should we do, let the fever run it's course, leave them untreated, keep running them regardless? How irresponsible is that?

Like was said before should we treat them then send them home to the owner for 60-90 days to make sure the meds are out of their system (it's too expensive to keep them at the track).

Because some drugs are acceptable as race day meds, does that give license to use them, morally? In my opinion not always, but it does depend on the drug.  Should we ban all race day meds? Maybe. Because a big percentage of those violations are overages by even a minute amount with NO intent to cheat.

A lot of the oldtimers even the big names don't run a horse on Lasix until it's absolutely proven that they need it. If you have a bleeder it's pretty scary, should no bleeders be allowed to run? Well you wouldn't have too many running because a lot tend to bleed with the amount of pollution, allergens and contamination we have in the world today. Because not only has the horse changed, the world itself has. (Global warming, etc)

The next logical step would be to ban training meds (other countries allow training meds). Because THAT is where a lot of the violations occur. Unacceptable levels remain, due not to giving them illegally, but just because they stayed in the horses system longer than they should.  LOGICAL in the minds of the people who are trying to kill racing or those who have NO idea on Gods green earth what it takes to keep these fragile creatures healthy.

Horse racing is stressful, horse racing isn't always glamorous and beautiful. It is a sport and sport carries inherent dangers with it. Therefore if you get rid of all the drugs, therapeutic and training meds included, it still won't be this perfect world that everyone envisions.

That gamblers mentality, like I said. If your horse gets beat, the other horses were on drugs, If you win, your horse was clean?

Finally I guess my question to you would be, have you lived a 40-75 year life and career totally without any mistakes, stupidity or bad things happening?

No human being has, none ever will that's what makes us human.

Katsan 04 Jan 2009 1:50 PM

Needler, That's wonderful about the backside. Yes most of us involved in horse racing are wonderful, hard working, caring animal lovers. (may be immodest but it's what I believe). But there would be no backside or walking art if a lot of people had their way. Because, without the racing, none of us would be able to do what we do.

Maybe we'd own horses for our own pleasure. But with our hands being tied, being criticized at every turn we are having a harder and harder time of doing our jobs. And a harder time maintaining that idyllic backside you talk about.

Katsan 04 Jan 2009 1:54 PM

I just had an interesting thought. How about Lasix{Salix}? Do you know how many Europe based horses were on it in the BC? Henrythenavigator and Raven's Pass were L1 users cause they can't run on it in Europe. So it begs the question how many of you "gamblers" out there use the first time lasix angle when betting? Do you think they cheated the public because Raven's Pass form didn't say L1? Buy the way he got fined for that one. So why did the trainer give it,cause maybe he thought he's have an edge?

Wanda 04 Jan 2009 2:03 PM

Wanda: Nobody is saying ban ALL drugs. What we are saying is, stiffer penalties for people who break rules. Big difference.

jshandler 04 Jan 2009 3:18 PM

Well just couldn't resist throwing in my two cents.

Zero tolerance, implies banning drugs.

Stiffer penalties across the board implies malicious intent on the part of ALL violators.

Some say Lasix masks other drugs.

Sometimes incidentals occur. Where and how do you draw the line.

Much more complex than the oversimplified views of some.

Some drugs are already banned, including one originally professed to be innocuous and not harmful, not even believed to enhance the ability of the horse.

What I think some are saying is stiffer penalties are too subjective, then the radicals who figure some drugs got banned will call for banning them all.

The ultimate goal, erradicate horse racing.

I'm not quite as dumb and naive as many think. I do have an advanced degree that is actually useful in the legalities of all this.

Hey Wanda, hope you're staying warm out on the frozen tundra.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 3:41 PM

But you can't have it both ways.

Wanda 04 Jan 2009 3:42 PM

Jordan A: "Stiffer penalties across the board implies malicious intent on the part of ALL violators."

You couldn't be any more wrong - advanced degree or not. If rules are put in place that everyone knows about beforehand, how is that malicious intent? The goal is to make racing safer and keep cheating to a minimum. If all these so-called "honest trainers" aren't cheating anyway, they should have no problems with stiffer penalties. You don't like my suggestions of 1-year for first-time violators, fine. Im open to discussion. But you can't tell me that the laughable rules in place now are strict enough. Change is needed. Almost everyone agrees with that. 

Ok, now I'm really done with this subject.

jshandler 04 Jan 2009 3:52 PM

Katsan... you said that I said,

"You have said that all trainers are dumb, all trainers cheat, no trainer knows what their horses would do, within the time I've been reading your comments, at one time or another. Since trainers are the ones managing the horses, choosing their races and the ones with ultimate responsibility my thought is you dislike trainers so much you want to see them all fried."

What are you talking about? Don't put words in my mouth because those are not my words.  My point is very simple: 3 Class 1 violations and you are out.  Let's make it real simple how many violations has Asmussen had in the last 3 years?  Answer me that. Enough with the excuses, cheaters need to go. End of story.  Trainers who are repeat offenders again and again should be banned from the sport.  Until that happens it will continue to be a declining sport.

Draynay 04 Jan 2009 3:54 PM

Draynay is right on this one guys. Admit it.

jshandler 04 Jan 2009 4:00 PM

Jason, I meant that is assuming malicious intent on the part of the violator. Referencing situational circumstances like everyone else on here who is preaching common sense.

Zero tolerance means to me that you penalize everyone exactly the same, whether there are mitigating circumstances or not.

Hope like heck you never have to defend yourself in a society where mitigating circumstances aren't taken into consideration.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 4:06 PM

Katsan, Big had asked me directly in an earlier post what I do with my horses when they are put down so I answered.

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear from someone who understands what drugs are given and why. This argument could go on forever and from what I can see is basically formed just from opinion or hear say. Maybe someone who knows should answer the casual racing fan. Why is lasix given? What are legit drugs and why? Why were anabolic steroids legal if they are considered by many to be performance enhancing drugs? Why should any horse have to run with any drugs?  Just throwing some questions out there in hopes of getting some educated responses.

Karen2 04 Jan 2009 4:08 PM

I admit Draynay is right. No doubt in my mind. If there are rules in place and a trainer keeps violating them, he/she should be done! Unfortunately the all mighty dollar speaks and everyone listens. Not to mention these big profile trainers basically feel they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Why? Because it has worked for so many years.

Karen2 04 Jan 2009 4:15 PM

Jason, sort of a theme for a while, especially some time ago.

Draynay proved our point. Big difference for repeat offenders who have served lengthy suspensions and those who have had a couple of minor infractions or even a major that was proven inaccurate or incorrect some 10-20 years ago. Also neither point of view reflects the original comments.

Plus the comments by many that whatever happens will NEVER be enough for the naysayers who want the sport to decline into oblivion, are correct.

If THEY don't have an agenda, they'll make one up.

And, guess what guys, all these people screaming for change, picketing, writing death threats, wouldn't go to a horse race if it was the most accident free, drug free, honest and above board sport in the world. Why? They aren't interested in the sport, just the platform that it provides.

Declining sport? Right along with the NBA, NFL, MLB, College basketball etc. All sports which used to have waiting lists for tickets and now can't fill the gym, stadium, ballpark or arena.

NASCAR, still draws crowds but the teams are disappearing and the sponsors, automakers are pulling out so fast they may be riding bikes around the track.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 4:17 PM

Also, Draynay, I'm not Katsan but I do know the one you took most of your postshots at, and, yes you did make those comments about trainers. On the Triple Crown Talk and earlier on The BC chat.

"trainers aren't THAT dumb"

"trainers have no idea what the horses are going to do, if they're going to win"  "____isn't the only one cheating, most of them do".  Think twice, post once and make it count. But most of all, remember what you write because others most certainly will and it'll invariably jump up and bite you in the b*tt every single time. Especially when you're doing a complete reversal.

You're Sort of like another poster we know that always counterpoints when caught in a reversal of an earlier comment.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 4:27 PM

JordanA you really have no idea what you are talking about.  The NFL is bigger than its ever been and Major League Baseball set a new attendance record in 2008.  College Football and Basketball are also bigger than ever before.  Horse racing? Is losing tracks and fans with each passing year.  Stop by any track in America and tell me the average age of those in attendance.  To deny horse racing is in decline is just plain silly. When I went to the tracks in Ohio as a kid they were packed with thousands of people.  Today those same tracks don't see 100 people most days.

draynay 04 Jan 2009 4:40 PM

Declining sport? My buds alma mater has had a waiting list for bball tickets, a $25,000 premium seat 'donation' people passing down the tickets when they die. Now the gym is never full, the tickets are pre-sold and they STILL aren't going. Why? Their high profile, celebrity coach retired and took some of the glamour with him.

Same attendance at others as well (little bit less of a donation but still in the thousands.)

Watched a top 10 college ballgame the other day, gym had 1/3 of the seats full. Why? well somebody or a few seems to believe we have a 'slight' problem with the economy, affecting a lot of different aspects of our lives.

Hey, maybe Sheik Mohammed will buy everything up, fund it like he does Dubai racing and only the people who REALLY love racing, love to handicap or gamble and/or depend on it for their livlihood will be at the tracks. Wait, that's the only ones there NOW or EVER on a regular race day.

Now the ones who want to be 'seen' and be with the 'in crowd' for the TC and Breeders Cup races might not show up, nahhh all 120,000+ will still be there on Derby Day.

But big Stakes days don't hold the same glamour or I want to be seen so I can talk about it that it used to.

BIGHORSEFAN 04 Jan 2009 4:43 PM

Yo Yo Home boy! Are you still in love? I'm chillin lol. Nay it's nice today-6C and the suns out. I'm watching the temp in Vegas we're headed out there pretty quick. It's not to warm there right now.

Still waiting on the loto win darn it. Who do you like this time of year?

Wanda 04 Jan 2009 4:48 PM

JordanA I have no problem standing by what I do say but I have never said that all trainers are dumb. I have said trainers don't know what their horse is going to do on any given day because if they did they would be the first ones at the betting window.  Every time these trainers talk about their horse before a race I wish someone would ask them a simple question, "How much are you betting on your horse to win?" I think most don't bet because they too have no idea if all things are equal.  I think they know its not always an even playing field.

Draynay 04 Jan 2009 5:20 PM

Karen, I understood the reference. Big referred to me about burying horses on the place, so I said you are lucky that you can do that legally.

Naming all the drugs and what they are for, what levels are allowed, what the penalties are? Wow, that would take more space on here than is available.

 Lasix is given to racehorses with a history of bleeding in the respiratory tract.

Some 'experts' think it doesn't work, a lot of trainers do.

Most of the trainers speaking on here aren't just speaking from heresay. We are required to know this stuff. Pen Pro is a legit antibiotic, DMSO is a Class 5, a topical rub that penetrates the skin.

Most drugs are not race day meds. Lasix and Bute are the ones normally referenced. Unlike what the 'experts' say, not every horse runs on Lasix or Bute. Again another bending of the statistics. Do a lot run on it, yes, too many?  Who knows? It doesn't seem to have affected things too much since NY lifted their ban. If almost all of them are running on it then there is no unfair advantage and if it saves even one horse from bleeding is it worth it? You answer that.

Like many of us who DO know are trying to say, those of you who may not know specifics or may not understand the uses and affects are perpetuating an argument without having the facts..

That's how a lot of the issues get blown out of proportion or a call is made to cease with common sense and pretend like nothing accidental ever happens.

A big portion of the violations aren't even race day meds. Just like the Penicillin Procaine that was in the one horse's system when it should've been out after 18 days, since the dose was given,  or incidental/accidental contamination since Pen Pro is often given in feed. Positives? Procaine a class 3 is the biggie. Mepivicaine a class 2 and legal therapeutic is one which seems to be currently one mentioned more frequently than in past. Clenbuterol is another, also a therapeutic.

Those are the most common violations from what I've read and heard. If you want to know who's violating, look at the sites like CHRB etc, each site tells you who has done what, where.

Class 1's are rare in a sampling done in a 2 year period in KY, no violations, 2's and 3's 0.1% Granted the sampling and study was a number of years ago, but there are others more recent that have similar stats.

Maybe this excerpt will help:Class 1

These are hard-core illegal narcotic opiates and stimulants with no place in racing. They also have the highest abuse potential. Substances in this class can have a profound affect on a horse's performance.  

"With the high technology and increased accuracy of urine testing, horsemen might assume more medication abuse would be disclosed; but quite the contrary. Increased technology has actually revealed racing as a clean, upstanding industry. The American Association of Equine Practitioners (AAEP) has identified about 50 substances that are legitimate therapeutic medications (Class 3, 4 and 5) for horses in training. According to Dr. Tobin, traces of these therapeutic medications are the most common chemical identifications and eight of these agents give rise to about 50 percent of the reported medication infractions in some jurisdictions."

Read that website that Whatamidoing provided, for starters, then there are lots of others that explain what the drugs are used for.

Katsan 04 Jan 2009 5:32 PM

Well I guess all the experts are wrong. IF I've heard ONE I've heard 20 say that the high buy in and ticket prices are killing baseball and that many who have been season ticket holders for years are NOT buying any longer.

I guess all those empty seats I saw at the Louisville/UNLV game, the Arizona/Gonzaga game the MLB games this season were figments of my imagination.

Fifteen MLB clubs declined at the gate this year, compared with just seven last season. Five teams fell by double-digit percentages in 2008.

Several clubs (including NY) are decreasing their seating capacity, it'll look fuller but there will be less people there.

That statistic is from the MLB itself.

I guess all the people who attend those games and are ragging on their fellow 'fans' for leaving 2/3 of the gym empty are full of sh**. Hey those fans are really there, they've just lost so much weight the red and blue and white of the seats is showing around their skinny little bodies.

But that's right, I recall you saying on another blog comment that there ARE no experts.

You actually went to the track as a kid? Doubt you go any more.

Yes it's in decline. Lots of reasons for it besided drug use.

Increased availability of gambling, more choices in entertainment, less discretionary income. those are as big or bigger part of the issue.

Also many in my younger generation have a need for constant action.

The laid back, relax and handicap between races mentality doesn't sit well with the brain fried video game addicts or go to the game get plastered and assault a fellow fan or player mentality that seems to be a growing faction.

Now with the economy in the toilet all of it will get worse.

Saratoga and Keeneland were down this year. Why? A poll showed that people just didn't have the money to go, travel or bet as in years past. Horse racing as a gambling related sport, follows more closely with the economy than some sports do.

Bryant Gumble's panel, Bob Costas and a number of others have all been talkng about the fact that sports has been and will be further affected by this economy just like everything else.  

Even the entertainment industry is starting to struggle, as more and more people stay home and watch tv rather than going to the movies. Figure the same is happening in sports. Although the viewership of the series went in the toilet and sporting event viewing is down as well. Another 'expert' provided that information. Draynay, master of change the subject, focus on the part of the post you think you can argue against, you are no expert.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 6:26 PM

sorry Kat I borrowed your 'expert' usage.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Draynay, YES you did say trainers are dumb. Actually "TRAINERS aren't THAT DUMB"  I will go back and find the quote in my spare time, but trust me you DID SAY THAT.

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 6:31 PM

HEY WANDA, my girl. Saw that Big tried to muscle in on us.

Well, the love? Temporarily, or just temporary insanity. Maybe when I'm old and decrepit I'll settle down, say 60 or so?

Who do I like? People? I know who I don't like, carried over from last year.

Horses?  Hmmm don't know, maybe whoever the Dubies haven't bought and taken to the desert.

Yes Vegas was like 40 something today, supposed to warm up close to highs of 60 later in the week.

We were there in early December for the WNFR and it was cold. Went back for a bowl game and a basketball game with Brad and it snowed 3 inches, they even closed the airport and the roads in.

It's high 50's to low 60's here, up to 70 by mid week.

Vegas Vacation? Have Fun!

JordanA 04 Jan 2009 6:42 PM

KAT.....I really don't worry that the grandkids (bless the little devils) might see someone taking a drink or  betting; that's the real world, and in my eyes the sins committed at the track aren't those. The sins I DO NOT want my little devils to see are the breakdowns and milkshakes and drugs and the folks who think of a horse as an ATM that should be junked when it stops paying out in big numbers. Nope, I'd much rather my grandkids talk to a hot walker or groom about the cat that resides on the butt of that nice grey over there, or the nest of barn swallows that poops on the head of that dark bay at the end of the shedrow OR the one that will try to remove your hand at the shoulder if you try to get too friendly. These people work very hard for very little money and they do it because they love the horses........that's all. It's a shame that some owners and trainers (NOTE: I said "SOME") can't care as much for the horses, be they TC winners or platers, as the nice folks on the backside who are there every day picking stalls, cleaning feet, rubbing legs, washing bandages and knowing when a horse who doesn't finish his last oat may be just a bit off. WOW!! Talk about being a dreamer!!!

Mostly, I just wanted you to know I wasn't putting anyone down in my previous post. I have nothing but respect for the backside workers (and I would bet they aren't the ones with the needles or milkshakes, either) who care for these lovely critters daily.

Changes will, no doubt, make things harder for a while, but wouldn't it be nice if a no drug policy were a nationwide, all track regulation...then no one would have to worry about whether or not the shot he's about to give is legal or not. Talk about a no-brainer.....no drugs at all, so don't give the shot!

YUP, I'm naive and wish for a perfect world, but since it isn't we MUST clean up racing before it becomes a national scandal. Eight Belles damn near did that, anyway, and I think it drove PETA bats that she was drug free, but we really should listen to the cries of outrage and save the best of racing. Otherwise, WHAT THE HELL ARE WE GONNA DO WITH ALL THESE HORSE RUNNING NOW??? Talk abut a scandal!!

Have a lovely week...I'm gonna go hug my 24 year old Morgan.........

needler in Virginia 04 Jan 2009 9:38 PM

Needler, And tomorrow I shall go hug the 27 we have at the track. Too cold tonight to go disturb and hug the 12 we have here on our place who are blanketed and in the barn in their plush and warm stalls, with the security camera monitoring them for intruders or ill health or an early foal. Nor will I  go up to the farm in Alb and hug the 7  teenage geldings and 2 year old filly and 2 20+ year old rescued mares we have up there. They also have a security camera, indoor stalls with big outdoor pens and paddocks. Tough life.

Once again, those caring for and loving their horses aren't just the grooms and hotwalkers.

Also, trust that some states will see that horse racing continues in some form or another, it's too big of an industry and would have too big of an impact in states like NM and Kentucky. We're pretty healthy here, the Racino's saved us. Ky is getting help from their legislature, if the politicos have an ounce of sense. Agrarian states especially ones with many horses as the base are committing economic suicide to not help the tracks in any way they can.

Katsan 04 Jan 2009 10:28 PM

I agree with you needler, it would be great if you could say no pre-race period. That would take care of all the arguments sorry I mean discussions.

Jordan you were there when it snowed? To funny I saw the pictures on YouTube. We're going the first week in Feb sorry I didn't mean you to think right away.

Wanda 04 Jan 2009 10:29 PM

Kat, please give everyone a peppermint for me. The Morgan can't eat 'em any more; he's a lifelong cribber and now has no top teeth.....ah, well. The 13 year old Walker (Plantation - NOT Big Lick Tennessee) doesn't like 'em and absolutely HATES carrots and apples, but has been known to indulge in a Burger King chicken sandwich now and then.....the grand devils taught him THAT! And then there's the last 1/3 of the "at home herd", the 20-something Sicilian donkey, very short, VERY crabby and apt to eat anything that doesn't eat her first.

Yup, it's much more than the backside workers who care for these guys and who love them, as well. Anyone who gets up to feed and break ice out of buckets and pick stalls obviously has to love them, 'cause if you don't what are you doing there at 5 a.m.?? It's the "win at any cost" gang that gives me the screaming crabbies. I'd like to see some of THAT bunch do what most horse owners do twice every day of the week. That's the "some" I referred to in my previous post.

All this, though, doesn't save racing. Jason's three wishes MUST be addressed and very soon or not only will we have the thousands of retired TB's to manage, but also the thousands who are either racing now or will be very soon. The beat goes on, and the horses pay the band. Their safety is paramount, since we choose to breed 'em and race 'em. You don't create a life and then toss it on the rubbish pile. If you are instrumental in getting that animal on the ground, you are responsible. That includes keeping it healthy, safe and giving it the guest bedroom!

At least there are a lot of posters here with some very good ideas, so maybe there is a little bit of light at the end of this tunnel. It's just that time is not on our side, is it?

Have a good week, Kat.

AND Wanda........you got it right the first time.... there WILL be arguments, and I doubt they will be civil. NAH...not discussions... arguments of earthquake magnitude!! But a good first step would be getting CONSISTENT across the country racing rules...NOT having 50 different sets of racetrack regulations. Hell, I can barely manage which states allow right turns on red!

needler in Virginia 05 Jan 2009 1:42 AM

The decline of racing has been happening for years now, not just in the last one or two. As I've stated before this crisis we are in is a direct result of the last 20 yrs of our breeding and selling practices, too many horses, too exspensive, let's run em early and fast and recoup the cash. Who cares where they go after? we got our picture in the winners circle and impressed our friends. Lo and behold now the classic distance is 1 1/4 and the marathon is 1 1/2. Race distances have been cut repeatedly, let's change the time in between races, let's change the track conditions. No mention of let's change our breeding pratices, let's let the horses grow, let's take them off all drugs. Instead it's been the opposite.

We read about the major players getting busted for drug violations, but how many more happen that we don't hear about because they are not as well known?

If it's happening in the big guy's barns it's happening everywhere. (no, I'm not saying it's an epidemic) but does it really matter if it is or isn't when the majority of people not involved in racing think it is?

why is that? could be because of our wonderful promotion of our horses, jockeys, owners etc... (sarcasm)

or it just might be that there IS truth to the rumors, more then we like admit.

The crime of rape used to be punishable by death, needless to say, back in the day rape was no where near as prevalent as it is now.

Something needs to be done quickly with the black eye our sport has gotten over drug issues (among others)I'm not saying to be as harsh as some are saying, but we need to get the point across somehow and start making people responsible, and unless the punishment hurts, it's not going to stop it.

Jason,

when's the next blog? I think we done this one to death..

sundaysilenced 05 Jan 2009 2:44 AM

Sorry Jason you made a comment on Jan 03 about how the zero tolerance rules work in Europe etc. They do not allow any pre-race meds so they don't have to deal with threshold levels. I guess that's what I was trying to say and couldn't yesterday. Do I think we can do the same thing? Depends how they word it and who can medicate etc.

Wanda 05 Jan 2009 10:17 AM

Well Jason... its time to talk about my buddy Smooth Air.  With Big Brown and Ravens Pass retired it looks like he may step into the same roll Curlin did when Hard Spun and Any Given Saturday retired.  Like Curlin, Smooth Air may be the best one still running and rule the older division on dirt and grass.  Unlike Curlin Smooth Air has won turf and I would not be surprised to see him win a Graded Stakes on turf and dirt this year. Sunshine Millions here we come...Go Smooth Air.

draynay 05 Jan 2009 11:00 AM

Ahhh, just got to love the "WE" on here.  By the way where were "WE"

at 4:35 this morning?

Atthebarn2 05 Jan 2009 11:20 AM

Thank you Katsan for your answers to my questions. It really is amazing how in depth these drugs and violations are. At this time I'm not really sure why any horse would have to run on any medication.

I certainly wasn't implying that all the folks on this blog don't know what they are talking about. But as you stated, a lot of information regarding drugs, legal and illegal are not understood by the racing fan. As a horse owner I understand Bute and have used it to help my horses feel comfortable after an injury but can't imagine giving it to mask a problem and keep that horse working.

Wanda: Are you in Canada?  Just curious as I live in North Dakota and it is very cooooooold here as well! It was -23 this morning.

Karen2 05 Jan 2009 11:33 AM

A brief example of what Jason is pointing out.

I was discussing with my uncle what my job description is and where I work in the industry after the derby.

He is respectable man and caught me off guard by dismissing Big Brown's win because he was "on steroids" and he is not a huge race fan but admires sports.

My uncle believes in ethics and integrity. This was the biggest wake up call for me, in how the general public has lost trust in the sport, because they see only what big media portrays or read into details about the industry, unfortunately, negative stories are reported on more than the positives, though I think this year has changed that some.

So, I agree with Jason, the general public has lost hope in our integrity and need to be reassured that the glory days of racing are ahead of us, by more action. Sometimes the actions speak louder than words?

aspradling 05 Jan 2009 12:29 PM

Wishing all a prosperous New Year.

My wish is for RAGS TO RICHES to be bred to CURLIN.

Resulting foal will be 3sX3d to DEPUTY MINISTER.

As of date I am leaning toward Square

Eddie to win the KD.

Angela2 05 Jan 2009 1:05 PM

Smooth Air? HaHaHaHa, He better get to the track in a hurry and rack up some wins before the racing year gets a full head of steam if he's to win at all. Not a proven G1 horse at all. Just an inconsistent member of last years pathetic american 3 yr old class who took turns beating each other up.

Step into the same roll as Curlin? History lesson for you nay nay, Curlin was on top before those you mentioned retired. Smooth Air has never been anywhere near the top. His wins have come in minor races or against nobodys. He was kept to facing pathetic american 3 yr olds all year until the Classic where he had no business being. On top of that he had no consistency against that weak group. His turf win was in a minor stakes and he faced nothing. If he's the best out there we are in for a sorry year.

I hope the racing gods have something better to offer us this year than Smooth Air or the sport will really be in trouble.

draynot 05 Jan 2009 1:40 PM

Yes Adam and Jason I agree that the media portrays mostly negative stories about racing, that's what sells the average person to read or watch. Someone commented on the 5 breakdowns at SA the first week of racing. I went and read the article on the Bloodhorse.com. Of the five breakdowns, three were fatalities. A condylar fracture of the right hind and one horse got bumped and was put down. the filly Indyanne fractured a sesamoid and will not require surgery. They went on to say that they cannot determine for sure that the track played a  part in these breakdowns. The horse that got bumped could have broke down from that. The filly was saved as she did not fracture both sesamoids. The condylar fracture must have been displaced because non-displaced are fixable.

So my point is that because I went and read this on a reputable website the facts were given out not just the headlines. Okay so I know what I read I understood and the average person wouldn't but at least it's there to read if you want to.

So how do we combat this? Right back to square one which is do away with all pre-race meds or as Jason says tougher penalties  for those who push the limits.

Wanda 05 Jan 2009 1:44 PM

Yep, we'll get the drug issue fixed (believe me I'll be happy to be on level playing ground me and the other 9 clean horses in that field of 11).

That won't fix what ails us so, then we'll get rid of the whips and these guys on the backs of these high strung animals will have one go thru the gap, or wipe out the rest of the field a few times, and umm, well we'll get back with you on that one.

Then we'll have breakdowns of a couple of high profile horses and it'll be, inferior breeding.

Then we'll get the 'sound' sturdy horse back and perfectly 'sound', drug free, no whip horses will break down.

Then it'll be, we need to get rid of dirt tracks and go to the oh so safe synthetics, and then we'll have a large # of breakdowns on the synthetics. Oops wait, there's been 5 breakdowns since Santa Anita, home of the ultra safe synthetic Breeders Cup, opened their meet.

Then SUDDENLY, all the armchair critics, Tuesday morning (since that's usually our dark day) trainers MAY realize. 'hey these are fragile, high strung, somewhat unpredictable animals, running against others of the same makeup with varying personalities and levels of experience up on their backs, varying personalites and levels of experience preparing them and all of them in an all-out competitive environment and exhibiting a desire to win.'

Then where will WE be?  Sitting here reading the ruminations of the people who fleetingly think of racing when they're bored or when someone raises the subject to someone in the 'general public' who wouldn't attend a race if their life depended on it and reflects on those words of wisdom.

We've been fighting against a negative image for years. Ever since the REAL people who loved animals and the majesty of racing, still realizing the danger involved, up and started getting too old to attend or started dying.

We've fought the image of carny type people, moving from track to track. We've fought the image of hiring and abusing illegal aliens etc. We've fought the image of being race fixing, debtors to big time gamblers and criminal syndicates.

Fact is like I said we've been fighting to impress a bunch of video game addicts who, like Jordan said, need the constant adrenaline rush of action. We're trying to impress and attract folks who are having their homes foreclosed, cars reposessed and losing their jobs in record #'s. We're trying to impress people who are decrying medications for our charges, but are taking antidepressants, other psychotrophic prescriptions and illegal drugs at a rate rivaling any in history, while many of those same folks are yelling the loudest about us.

We are on the whole, honest, hardworking, animal loving people who are here 16-18 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year, doing what we love. Not trying to get rich, not intending to harm a living creature or insult or judge another human being in a field we know nothing about other than heresay or what we read and what others choose to blow out of proportion or what some have an agenda about. WE don't have time for that.

Atthebarn2 05 Jan 2009 2:43 PM

Katsan, yes it makes sense to assume that most of us in life have made mistakes.  I think what you and others are missing though is that most of us in life have to pay for our mistakes.  Since horseracing involves life and death, in my opinion the rules should be more stringently enforced then in a lot of other professions, not less as you seem to indicate.  From reading the comments from you as well as other horseracing insiders (you felt it important to stress the difference between insiders and outsiders as if one set of opinions matters more, causing further alienation), the average outsider might get the impression that the industry has a lot of slackers that want to be excused from being responsible for their mistakes.  And yes this is America, as you point out, and people are supposed to be presumed innocent till proven otherwise, yet we are all treated like criminals when we go through security at the airport...not because most people are looking to do evil, but because a SMALL percentage of people are.  The excuses all just sound a bit whiney and defensive.  I know that what I just said is not going to win me any friends (that's for people like Karen2), but these changes really need to happen for the good of your livelihood -- can't you see that?  Look around, it's not just racing that must make changes.  People are losing their jobs left and right in the real world, and are forced to make life changes to survive.  Still, I enjoy reading your posts about New Mexico, Katsan... it is very beautiful there with all the horses grazing in rolling pastures covered with yellow flowers, and white sands is amazing.  This city-girl saw a dead cow along the side of the road while I was there.  I was not prepared for that one legs straight up defying gravity??).

HelSbelles 05 Jan 2009 3:41 PM

Thank you Katsan for your answers to my questions. Although it is true some of the trainers on these blogs know about these drugs, its not so well-known amoung the fans. What I see are some bloggers explaining why it would be hard to banish all drugs.  I was looking for some hard core evidence to justify that. Even after reading your response, it would appear to me that the thoroughbred does not need and should not need any drugs to run the race.  A horse in top condition and sound, should not be running on drugs and there shouldn't be any excuses if they are. This sounds much easier to control than different levels of violations and classes of drugs. Shouldn't they be running on hay, oats and water? Perfect world......maybe, but why can't this happen?

Karen2 05 Jan 2009 3:49 PM

Once again we have the perfect world theory.

It isn't.

Other countries allow training meds and that seems to be where a lot of trainers get in trouble. Sure maybe there should be no race day meds. But to say no meds at all? That's sort of like saying that no one should ever take medication. A horse may be perfectly healthy, then have a fever. A reason to not ever run the horse again? NO. Before you comment, once again I think a little research is in order.

Katsan 05 Jan 2009 9:12 PM

Going thru airport security is to protect YOU as much as anyone else. Same thing when they search your bag going into a sporting event. You choose do go that way, sounds a LOT whiney to me, don't like it? DRIVE.

I'd say that responsiblity is just as or even more important for Dr's, pharmacists, nurses and such because their mistakes affect millions of lives. Only difference for us is the horses we work with are preferable to a lot of the human beings these medical people might accidentally kill or maim.

You are acting as though no one ever pays a price, not true.

We are not saying we should be held blameless. We are saying that WHY should we be held to a standard that is impossible to meet. NEVER, EVER MAKE A MISTAKE OR HAVE AN ERROR AS LONG AS YOU LIVE. Like Atthebarn said, it'll always be something because that's what people who like to criticize and manage other people's lives that has no real true effect on their own, do.

What I, like several others are saying is, how many times a day do you think about horse racing? How often do you go to the races?

How MUCH do any of YOU really know about medication, it's uses, penalties and what is a violation.

That was in direct response to someone saying "This argument could go on forever and from what I can see is basically formed just from opinion or hear say."

Well in some of our cases it isn't hearsay, and we aren't just arguing about it for the fun of it, to pass the time or because we like to argue or have an axe to grind, a bone to pick.  

Tell me just how does horse racing and it's drug issues, outbreaks of

EHV or Equine Influenza or anything else WE face actually affect your day to day life?

Katsan 05 Jan 2009 9:35 PM

And yes New Mexico is beautiful. From the big ranches, the mountains, the deserts, the badlands, the red rocks, the fertile valley farms, the white sands, the carlsbad caverns, Chaco canyon, Wild horse canyon, the malpais, the Anazazi ruins in the southwest. Our wild mustangs that run free, all of our wildlife preserves. Those of us in New Mexico have done a very good job of protecting and preserving our wildlife, animals, natural beauty and I think you can be assured that we take all of this very seriously. We take pride in being independent and in the love and care we give ALL of our animals. Keeping the wild west, wild and free of human clutter, yet being caring and giving people. Kind of like 90% of the people you find in horse racing.

Katsan 05 Jan 2009 9:49 PM

Draynot... I know you are not knocking my buddy Smooth Air who unlike Curlin was able to WIN a stakes race on turf.  Smooth Air will rule the older division this year and should his feet hold up could be the horse to beat at the end of the year.

Draynay 05 Jan 2009 11:08 PM

Kat, good to see you feisty and full of life after all your tragedies the past few months.

Not to worry Darlin, in 5 years we will still be here in some way, shape or form and almost all these folks will have moved on. Bigger fish to fry than us.

Whatamidoing 05 Jan 2009 11:10 PM

Atthebarn,

You had me for awhile. There will always be unfortunate instances and reasons or excuses to cover them up. With that i agree. Your extremely negative attitude towards those who you are "trying to impress" is however very disturbing. You are in the wrong business if those who you depend on to make your living are those who you decry. You need those fans and bettors for your job to survive. Such a negative attitude towards the hands who feed you will most certainly lead to your demise.

I am hoping that the majority of others out there in the racing industry do not share your view. If that is the case then racing is in far more trouble than I thought. I understand that in any business there are disgruntled employees who's attitudes towards there job and those they produce for are very negative. Perhaps you didn't intend to come off as ungrateful or condescending towards those who you are "trying to impress" but it sure reads that way.

Your last sentence tells me alot. "WE don't have time for that." Reminds me of a former employee of mine who spent most of the day complaining or wailing against anything or everything and then had the gall to say they didn't have time to do what they were paid to do. In this case you sure had time to take away from your busy 16-18 hr day and get online to complain. I guess that day includes time for that. In the business world personal time spent on the computer is not considered work.

If you just happened to be having a bad day I could maybe understand some of the attitude. If you sincerely despise those essential to keeping the industry alive, I can only hope you are in the vast minority of those who call the racing industry their bread and butter employment.

schabelli 06 Jan 2009 8:12 AM

First, I promise this is the last thing I'll post about the medication issue. It's time to turn my attention to the newly turned 3 year olds and start looking for my Derby horse!

I have seen several posts suggesting that no raceday medications are allowed in Europe and there are very few violations. That may be true. But claiming races are not the backbone of European or (as far as I know), anyone else's racing. I know that they have "selling races" in Europe, but it is my understanding that they work quite differently from our claiming races. Maybe someone from Europe can let me know if I am understanding the system correctly. As I understand it the winner of the selling race is auctioned off after the race. That's a far cry from our claiming races, where the claim slip is dropped before the race, and when the gate opens and the horse becomes a "starter" the horse is yours, win or lose, dead or alive. The owner/trainer who is claiming the horse and hoping to run it back as soon as possible has no way of knowing what the horse was given and when it was administered, especially since some of these horses can be claimed 2 or 3 times in the space of a month or from any number of consecutive races. I suppose you could test every horse you claim for every prohibited substance, but after a while it would become prohibitively expensive. It's hard enough for owners of "cheap" horses to stay afloat now. I can just imagine what my owners would have said if I told them they had to pay for extensive drug testing on every horse they claimed before they could run it back. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons there were no penalties for EPO positives early on was because they could test for the presence of it, but could not tell when and by whom it was administered and did not want to punish innocent people. I believe some jurisdictions are now considering using  "out of competition testing" to try to correct that problem. So if I claim one or have one sent to me from another trainer (as I said before, sometimes the information you get from the previous barn is faulty and, believe me, when you claim a horse you generally get NO information from the previous barn)and the horse tests positive for something I didn't give it, fine. I'll serve the suspension if I lose my appeal. But don't rule me off for life for someone else's mistake or for something I had no way of knowing.

Cheryl from Maryland 06 Jan 2009 11:31 AM

Actually, I lied. This will be my last post about the medication issue. I meant to include this with last one, so I promise I mean it this time.

I stated in my first post on this issue that I feel that the claiming system needs to be looked at and maybe revised somewhat. One of the reasons I said that, which I have not brought up before, is that some people are hesitant to give the horses time off to really get sound because many times the person who spent the time and money to "fix" the horse has it claimed away as soon as the horse returns to the races (often in its first start back). They have very little chance to get their money back unless they're lucky enough for the horse to win first time back. Very few owners can afford to repeatedly spend thousands of dollars to repair a horse with no hope of any return on their investment. People may be more willing to give their horses the time they need to recover, rather than medicating them and trying to keep them going, if they could "protect" the horse for the first couple of starts back. I'm talking about horses that are not talented enough to run in allowance company, whose owners have no realistic chance to earn any purse money without risking them for a claiming tag. There are some claiming trainers who look for horses who are fresh and have been turned out to heal. As I said before, that's o.k. because that's how the game is played at this point in time. But maybe the claiming game could use some tweaking and a little less medication would be necessary.

Cheryl from Maryland 06 Jan 2009 12:14 PM

Katsan: when you say "before you comment, I think a little research is in order" who are you addressing?

Not sure that is a fair statement to anyone on this blog.  

Katsan, fans are very important to this industry. You wouldn't need to train a horse if people didn't care to bet or watch a race. We might not all be horse trainers but some of us are experienced horse people. We have horses that are used in other disciplines. Not just racing. You miss the point completely when people say horses should not be raced on drugs. You say if a horse gets a fever, it should never run again???? Huh???? I don't believe that is what is being said here at all. We may not get up every morning and go to the barn at 5:00 to train a horse but our involvement and love for this industry is more than fleeting. So what if we go for the "perfect world" theory.... we may not live in a perfect world, but isn't it our jobs to strive for a much more close to perfect world for our equine friends?  I agree with Atthebarn.  I think no matter what is done, someone wont be satisfied. I think its fair to say that is true in all aspects of life. But does that mean we turn our backs on the obvious problems and quit working to make this a better sport for all involved?

With that said Katsan, its nice to read posts from people on the inside who can enlighten us on some inside practices. I think that is why most of us enjoy this so much. Because we want to soak up as much about this industry as we can. I do think its important to recognize each and every one of us is vital for the survival of this sport.

HelSbelles: not sure what your reference to me in your last post was all about. Please enlighten me.

Karen2 06 Jan 2009 12:37 PM

Sundaysilenced: I agree. I will have the first Triple Crown Talk post on Wednesday.

jshandler 06 Jan 2009 4:16 PM

After reading the comments here on the drug issue I have read Run Baby Run by Bill Heller and I recommend it to anyone interested in educating themselves more on the Salix(Lasix) issue. I have always thought that race day meds should be banned and now I REALLY think so. And I agree with Cheryl from MD about claiming races. I am a fan who likes to dream of someday owning a racehorse, but I can't expect to buy a superhorse and from my perspective I assume I would be in love with him and wouldn't want to have to risk losing him every time he ran.

barb 06 Jan 2009 5:32 PM

Am I anti fan, anti gambler? Absolutely not. Fact is I'm always courteous to fans, if someone wants to come on the backside, I help out with that. I'm good friends with some gamblers. Some on here. Do I get badgered and bashed by those fans and gamblers?

NO. Do we get badgered and bashed by many folks on here? YES.

My point and I believe I can speak

for Kat, Whatamidoing and maybe one or two others who say that the real fans we run into don't have us on their agenda. Do they ask questions yes. Do we answer the questions? Yes we do. Do we explain things, all the time. Fact is we've come on here and explained things from our perspective or how things work in actuality. Do some appreciate our input, yes. Do we get it thrown back in our face with great regularity? yes.

Am I having a bad day? No worse than any other, when I've read about how people think a bunch of us are cheaters and we are perceived as such even if we aren't. Just because of guilt by association or being in the same job, a standard not many of you are held to.

The economy is in the toilet and we keep hearing from all of you on here how the industry is going to be dead soon. But you may just lose your livlihood too, although we don't rub your noses in it, even though YOUR industry might need to change some things.

People say the arguments are based on heresay, someone tries to explain once again after two had already explained and then is told that the person who asked is familiar with it already.

I really don't know why we try to give input. Just turns into a futile attempt to try and defend ourselves. Guess we don't have a right to that and should just stay quiet and take whatever people want to dish out.

Most who are good people and try that, get slapped in the face, ala Larry Jones. So like him they just bag the whole thing.

At my age I know what to bag. Good luck with arguing it with each other, getting any insight from us that have been willing to talk.

You'll just have to get your input from Jason's Q&A's and most of those folks may seem very open, but they aren't really. See we've all learned over the years, who's a fan and who just wants to take us to task.

Guess a senior moment for me and temporary insanity for the others, or maybe just an attempt to help people see there's two sides to every story. And just what our feelings and side are.

Atthebarn2 06 Jan 2009 7:17 PM

AththeBarn: This a blog and the point of it is for people to express their opinions. Because you work in the industry, you have some insight that others don't. We appreciate some of those opinions. But that does not mean you are right about everything. And it certainly doesnt mean that people on here have to agree with everything you write. Again, the point of a blog is for people to give their point of view - whether it be from a fan, a gambler or an insiders perspective. You do come off as negative and angry at times, which I think is what Schabelli is saying. Your last post really illustrates that. While we all can get testy from time to time on here, this blog is supposed to be fun. Let's try to keep it that way and respect everyone even though we may disagree.

jshandler 06 Jan 2009 10:25 PM

Don't you ever pack it in mister Atthebarn! You don't suger coat nothing, so don't stop being you okay bud? If wishes were fishes.....

One day I'll meet you all.

Wanda 06 Jan 2009 10:36 PM

Jason, I've been reading these posts and blogs for quite some time. Never felt compelled to write. However, tonight I do.

I really can empathize with Atthebarn2. I sincerely do not believe his last post was the least bit disrespectful.

Sounded more to me like a man who has tried to give insight, I've read and he and his friend have explained some aspects of horse racing very well. Everything from the types of drugs used and why, to lead changes to what they deal with when a horse has quarter cracks.

Most everyone on here is speculating, looking at it from the outsiders view, thus just bantering back and forth with each other.

He is being taken to task publicly when I have seen some posts on here which have absolutely villified him and many in the industry who do not post.

His comment just prior to the first, was laced with sarcasm. His second seemed to try and explain his feelings and sounded pretty disheartened.

If that was the aim of many on here who said things that they should be more ashamed of than him, well congratulations.

You've probably cut off the real inside view you all had.

Why, because even though you all are just giving your opinions, they may be uninformed but they don't need to be intentionally hurtful, do they?

When he responded with a few home truths about what people were saying, you all got offended. You did the same to Katsan. Not Whatamidoing because he seems like he knows how to ignore it. Maybe like his friend said, he's got some real good horses and hasn't the time for this.

Most of these folks are busier than we can imagine and have little time, but take time to come on here and write, maybe not what we all want to hear, but I've learned an awful lot.

I don't know them but from reading their comments, I would be honored.

I have read the comments of the gambler friends and they seem to think the sun rises and sets in the man.

I've always kind of enjoyed his dry wit, excellent writing and stories. Shame I doubt we'll see them again.

Now everyone can just make it up as they go and it'll be whatever way you all want it to be.

Mike 06 Jan 2009 11:56 PM

Unbelievable.

Why these horse racing people would take the time to come on, try to explain so many things. Why they would try to stand up for themselves is beyond me.

Joel Marr did it when his mare was scratched, because you villified him without knowing the true story behind Peppers Pride. A couple others have too or at least done it through you Jason.

Why should these people HAVE to come on a blog to defend themselves and try to set the record straight?  Now if it was just opinion and discussion it would be fine. But it's not, it's condemnation, accusations and criticism and you all make it personal and hurt a lot of feelings.

To be publically scolded when one guy who consistently called people out and name called, challenged people and fought with nearly everyone on the board never was publically chastised in this manner. You say he comes off as angry, think YOU might feel the same way if your lifeblood and life's work was being dissected and talked about on a public forum SO negatively?

I KNOW this man, my bet is some of you may too. He's a good guy who's taught you all a bunch I bet.

I'm at a loss right now. I just watched while people criticized and crucified another man who had given 25 years of his life to my alma mater, now to come on here and witness this, makes me lose my faith in mankind.

Unbelievable

Bradgm 07 Jan 2009 12:14 AM

 Jason- 'tis great to see your blog is up and the emotions/logic of the various positions about owners, drugs, tracks, horses, falling $ handle etc. Well Done to ALL.

 How is the Fantacy rec. panning-out? Seems someone is trolling for $$ more $$ losers to gamble than the basic FUN of the choice, period. Whatttaaa you  say??   I enjoyed your weekly effort to have a show AND to HANDICAPPP the best you guys could. Hope your format returns as an alternative to fantasies customer MARKETING though! How "bout a stab at the tri. cr. in,say, May and June!?!  V

PA VANDAL ism 07 Jan 2009 6:21 AM

Yes, your comments are most appreciated atthebarn.  Jason seems to be the one neglecting to adhere to the Law of the Blog.  1st amendment right for you atthebarn.  Jason, remember, your media pass can be taken at any time.  Atthebarn is truly "in the industry"!!!

TenForTen 07 Jan 2009 1:00 PM

FEB 26, 2009

 HELLO>>  ENJOY THE STEVE & PAL SHOW with their annalysis of the MAY '09 K DERBY & BEYOND!They note that  DUNKIRK seems to echo BIG BROWN somewhat after only 2 ex 'bouts.>>PLUS your show is always sincere for this SIX-BIT $ BETTER  etc>>   AND WE URGENTLY NEED A SINGLE LEADER FOR ALL OF HORSERACING--NOW!! WE HAVE A MESS TO BE CLEANED-UP ASAP.<<>>  VAN

PA VANDAL ism 26 Feb 2009 10:37 PM

We need our powers that be to come down much harder on trainers using drugs.  It still is very prevalent and so many potential race goers are turned off thinking its all about drugs.  (jockey whips upset a lot of laymen as well) Perhaps its time for 0 tolerance nationwide although I dont know how we would handle bleeders then.

optimist 21 Mar 2009 8:31 AM

I have several wishes for 2009: first and foremost,NO MORE BREAKDOWNS!!  That every horse crosses the line safe and sound.  A Triple Crown winner sounds good too!  Zero tolerance for all drugs, and jockey Randy Romero makes it to the Hall of Fame, it's long over due.

Robin 31 Mar 2009 8:33 PM

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