BloodHorse.com

Search Blood-Horse.com

The Fantasy Breeders' Cup Classic

For those of you who live in or near Lexington, you may have had the pleasure of stopping by a neat, little bar & grill called Harry's. Located in the Lansdowne section of Lexington, Harry's is a spot with a popular outside patio area, excellent food and drinks, and a pleasant staff.

But the thing that makes Harry's uniquely cool is its tribute to horse racing. The inside portion of the bar has tabletops made of original Keeneland memorabilia dating back to the early part of the 20th century, and the walls are littered with silks from many of the leading Thoroughbred owners and winner's circle photos of every Kentucky Derby winner since 1943.

All of that is very cool, but perhaps the most notable thing about Harry's décor are the three exclusive tote boards that offer fans a fantasy version of the all-time dream match-ups of the Breeders' Cup Classic, Distaff and Sprint. The tote boards stretch across the far wall and read just like a racing program, complete with the horses names, trainers, owners, and even mythical odds on the races. The compilation of horses was selected by racing experts from all over Kentucky.

Since we seem to be in full debate mode right now with all of this Rachel vs. Zenyatta stuff, I thought it would be fun to offer our opinions on these dream races. This time, we'll focus on the BC Classic, but we can revisit the Distaff and Sprint in later blogs.

Here is the "field" for the fantasy Breeders' Cup Classic, complete with odds, according to Harry's. For the sake of argument, we'll say the race takes place at Belmont:

There is much more to debate here aside from the winner of the race. How do you see the race playing out? What would it look like from a pace scenario? Who are the biggest overlays on here? What horse not on here should be part of the field? What would your exacta and trifectas look like?

Some of my thoughts? Well, first of all the field excludes six Triple Crown winners, including Sir Barton, the first horse to accomplish the feat. Perhaps he should have been on there instead of Seabiscuit, but other than that I don't really have a problem with the field. If it is limited to 12, you can't have all the great ones.

As far as the odds, I think the biggest overlays are The Bid at 10-1 and War Admiral at 30-1, the longest shot in the field. Yes, War Admiral lost to ‘Biscuit in the famed match race, but in a field of 12 in his prime, I would take my chances at 30-1.

My picks: Well, how can leave out Man o' War? A winner of 20 of 21 races, many of them while carrying 130 pounds as a 2-year-old and 138 pounds as a 3-year-old (can you imagine that now?), and all of the world and track records. I only wish there were video of him racing.

Citation would also be there. He won 27 of his first 29 starts, including beating the older HOY from the previous season as 3-year-old, twice, swept the Triple Crown, set records, came back from injuries to become the first millionaire and on and on. He was a beast.

And then there is The Bid, who I consider the best horse of my lifetime. His record of 26-2-1 from 30 starts stands on its own, and had he not lost the Belmont he might be looked upon as better than Secretariat by the public. His 4-year-old season was unreal, with records to prove it.

It's hard to leave out any on here, but the three above would comprise my trifecta.

The winner? Citation by a neck over The Bid. According to what I've seen and read, he was the best of all-time. He also won at the Classic distance five times and was undefeated at Belmont.

Let the debating begin...

400 Comments:

What? No Rachel Alexandra? Draynay surely can't figure this out.  

steve from st. louis 21 Jul 2009 1:43 PM

Secratriat wins hands down, even against Man O' War (my all time favorite horse). I am talking about the Secretariat who showed up at Belmont and won by 20 lengths. Then I think Citation and Man O' War third. Don't laugh but I put Seabiscuit 4th.

Does anyone but me think Phar Lap should be on this list?? I know he had a relatively short career but he was one impressive horse.

Also, if we put this race elsewhwere, the list might change.

Paula Higgins 21 Jul 2009 1:47 PM

What a great field! I like Secretariat to win this race based on his running style. This field seems to have quite a bit of speed and I would like a horse that would be rateable and then have that acceleration and Secretariat is the horse that was all of that.

The Legend 21 Jul 2009 1:50 PM

If it's the Secretariat that ran on Belmont day, no horse could beat him.

To me, the three best horses in that race, if you're talking their best day ever, are Secretariat, Man o'War and Citation.

Tiznowbaby 21 Jul 2009 1:52 PM

Have to go with my heart here and say Tiznow pulls the upset! But from what I've read I have to agree with you Jason that The Bid and Citation were just monsters, taking nothing away from Secretariat.

Frank J. 21 Jul 2009 1:55 PM

Steve, dray would have Big Bro...no, Quality Ro....no, Dunk...I meant Rachel Alexandra, haha!

Frank J. 21 Jul 2009 1:58 PM

Oh, Jason.  You are a brave, brave man.  :)

It'd be a heck of a race!  Secretariat, Man 'o War, the Bid and Citation in a blanket finish!  Not necessarily in that order.  

Cleone 21 Jul 2009 1:58 PM

My top three are, Man O' War  first, Citation second, and Secretariat third.

sweet terchi 21 Jul 2009 2:02 PM

Man O War - Citation - Secretariat - Forego for a sperfecta. Man O War & Citation battle down to the wire with BigRed1 prevailing by a nose. Secretariat in 3rd about 1/2 a length back from the winner with Forego coming in only a neck behind Secretariat. Possibly would have gotten 3rd had he not been held up by a traffic jam!

Lady Ruffian 21 Jul 2009 2:07 PM

SPECTACULAR BID-Maybe more people would pick him to win your Fantasy Classic if trainer had been smart enough to skip the belmont because of nail in hoof.( IS NAIL INCIDENT a fact}

steve s 21 Jul 2009 2:08 PM

Citation was the greatest racehorse ever. He wins over Secretartiat and Man O' War

Curlin4ever 21 Jul 2009 2:09 PM

I'll take 5/1 on Kelso and enjoy the race!

WinnahPickah 21 Jul 2009 2:10 PM

Well i voted for SEATTLE SLEW to SLAY em!  Naturally!

Going to watch ATR on Sky soon cos the one presenter who truly irritates me has gone home or off air anyway and Tony (Enzo) Ennis and the others are great!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

Abbie Knowles 21 Jul 2009 2:19 PM

What?  No PHAR LAP?  Very dissapointing.  I think the "Red Terror" would have beaten them all.  This is assuming we are at weight for age right?  In his 4yo season he was close to unbeatable.

As a 3yo he won 13 of 20 starts and won Gr 1 races from 7fur to 1 1/4 miles.  In his 4yo year he won a gr1 race at a mile and the Melbourne Cup at 2 miles and won 14 of 16 starts carrying crushing weight in all.  As a 5yo he won at Agua Caliente at a 1 1/4 miles in his first and only start on dirt setting a new track record.  I would have my money on Phar Lap!

Adcook 21 Jul 2009 2:21 PM

Man o War for me, but Jason i agree with your top three as a whole, i just think Man o War would take the cake. Then Citation and the Bid battling it out. Man o War just had so much speed. The only races he was ever whipped were his lone loss and his match with John P Grier. I'm not sure if i spelled his name right. I'll look it up in my book. He was just so much the best, he's the only horse to win a race by 100 lengths, right? Of course the horse he faced wasn't anything special, but 100 lengths, can you imagine. He is arguably one of the best in History or at least the top three, IMO. He was truely a great horse.

LDP 21 Jul 2009 2:23 PM

Since it is the Breeders Cup Classic, you got to add the Euro contenders, add Ribot, Nearco, Bahram, Sir Ivor and Mill Reef.  Jason, these horses seem to be taken for granted, while their names dominate the pedigrees of mostly every Breeders Cup Winner not to mention runner.

While from North America it seems Native Dancer and Northern Dancer always seem to be overlooked. It seems Native Dancer will never be forgiven for losing the derby to Dark Star, and Northern Dancer will never be given his due, I mean their genes run through most of the thoroughbreed population in the whole world.

EmilioP 21 Jul 2009 2:41 PM

Secretariat by 31 lengths.  :)

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 2:52 PM

I'd exacta box the whole field.  It's only a $132 bet for a $1 and I'd hope the "longshots" hit the board, lol.

Curlin 21 Jul 2009 3:01 PM

WRONG BLOG but WIN AND YOUR IN has just gotten sweet temper in to breeders distaff.SHE DONT BELONG

steve s 21 Jul 2009 3:04 PM

I agree!  Big Ci! was the best who ever lived, I challenge anyone to find a racehorse who accomplished what Citation did before injury, 27 of 29 including beating the defending horse of the year twice before the triple crown while winning a stakes between the preakness and belmont. If you don't know about him go read about him because his story is the stuff of legend. Man O War, Secretariat, The Bid, and Kelso there all so good, but Big Ci! was the best.

90Proof 21 Jul 2009 3:18 PM

Adcook, I totally agree. Phar Lap  would be right up there with the three of them.

Jason, there is a short video on Youtube of Man O' War beating Sir Barton in 1920 with an explosive burst of speed, reminiscent of Secretariat. He was just an awesome horse in every sense of that word. He just didn't quit. I get teary eyed every time I see one of those videos with Willie Harburton.

However, I still think it would have been Secretariat at the Belmont, even though he sure wouldn't have beaten this group by any 20 lengths. That super sized heart (literally, as we all know) would have given him an edge at that distance.

Paula Higgins 21 Jul 2009 3:24 PM

Secretariat if the race is at Belmont.  If it is held on plastic, Secretariat.  Anywhere else, it would have to be Secretariat.

Ted from LA 21 Jul 2009 3:26 PM

Emilio P I agree with everything you said. The Euros would have to be on the list too. Ditto native Dancer.

Paula Higgins 21 Jul 2009 3:26 PM

15 - 1 on Forego at level weights????

Might be worth it.

mz 21 Jul 2009 3:32 PM

And Emilio P: I loooovvvveeeee Northern Dancer and I think he would run his guts out and I think he would beat Tiznow but otherwise....(this breaks my heart to say)

I do agree, tho, what about Ribot, Nearco, Phar Lap and, fergawdsakes, Sea Bird and Nijinsky.  Problem: Belmont isn't plastics, is it?

mz 21 Jul 2009 3:37 PM

Imagine Secretariat running at ages 4 and 5. I rest my case.

Pick Four Bill 21 Jul 2009 3:39 PM

A Mile and a Quarter in the classic as a mature horse, not restricted to 3 year-olds??

Man O'War-who could possibly know how good he was? Especially with todays tracks, etc.

Swaps: Race horse record destroyer, all tracks, all surfaces, all distances.

Spectacular Bid 1:57 4/5 126 lbs...I mean, he's the Bid.

Jason, you can watch Man O'War in the Kenilworth Park Gold Cup, where he cantered in the stretch to beat Sir Barton by 7 lengths under such a tight hold his mouth is gaping open as he drags his rider over the finish line and taking 6 seconds off the record...

da3hoss 21 Jul 2009 3:42 PM

two of the greatest horses to ever set on the track not even included in this debate is not one worth taking. Both Dr Fager & Damascus should be on here--i don't know of anyone who could go out there & keep the good doctor honest and not compromises his own chances-He broke the world's record for a mile while toting 134 lbs. In the last race of his career, they put 139 lbs on him in the Vosburgh and he broke the track record at Aqu for 7 furlongs in 1:20:1. Revise that list & get the truly great horses on there

listing left 21 Jul 2009 3:44 PM

Frank and the others concerned with what dray would pick, i would think he would take the Bid, his favorite.  

For me it would be Secretariat

Dave 21 Jul 2009 3:46 PM

Listing left: Dr. Fager is on the Sprint tote board. He won more races at a mile or under than he did at a mile or over.

Pick Four Bill: You can't say 'what if' Secretariat ran at 4 or 5. He didn't Have to deal in facts.

jshandler 21 Jul 2009 3:50 PM

Greg J.  What would you do for a trifecta on this race LOL!

:)

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 3:50 PM

Man O'War would win. He won almost every race under tight holds, sometimes strangle holds. Can you imagine what he would have done if he was ever allowed the really run?

dbtoo 21 Jul 2009 3:50 PM

Here are some videos of Man O'War racing:

www.youtube.com/watch

and

www.youtube.com/watch

Karen in Indiana 21 Jul 2009 3:51 PM

The Bid WINS ! Never lost at a 1 1/4

Big Brown and Rachel in a dead heat for second. lol

The fact that many took Secretariat tells me all I need to know about many here.  Somewhere Prove Out and Onion are cracking up !

Draynay 21 Jul 2009 3:51 PM

Abbie Knowles....

I would love to see Slew take this but something tells me that Big Red would beat him.  YIKES.  Slew is my favorite though.  :)

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 3:52 PM

I narrowed this one down to five horses: SECRETARIAT, SPECTACULAR BID, CITATION, FOREGO and MAN O' WAR. After that I'm having a really hard time. The Kentucky Derby, Belmont, Marlboro Cup SECRETARIAT could win this. The 4 year old SPECTACULAR BID could win. The 4, 5, or 6 year old FOREGO could win. CITATION and MAN O' WAR were as great as great can get. I love AFFIRMED and SEATTLE SLEW, and the only reason I tossed them is because both of them crumbled badly under pressure on one occasion (AFFIRMED's Jockey Club Gold Cup and SEATTLE SLEW's terrible 4th place finish to J.O. TOBIN in the Swaps Stakes). However, on their best day those two could do anything!

I can't pick a winner. But if I have to I'll go with SPECTACULAR BID on this one. Tomorrow I'll go with SECRETARIAT. The day after it will be FOREGO. Think about it...at level weights? Come on...what's not to love?

Mike S 21 Jul 2009 4:00 PM

Ruffian! I would add her for the girls! I'm pretty sure she didn't realize she was a chick anyway... Although she wouldn't beat Big Red, she would distract Man o'War and Citation enough to sneak by then flick her tail at them! She was a monster horse as well...

Curlin4u 21 Jul 2009 4:03 PM

Bid by a nose, slew second, half length back in third Man o war. easy

nagger 21 Jul 2009 4:07 PM

Like this post Jason, thank you.  I'd have to go with Man O'War, him being my favorite racehorse.  As much as I like Slew as my favorite mid-century or so horse and Tiznow as my favorite modern horse, the original Big Red would take them.  You can't count out the Bid either, he'd be up there, but not even with Man O'War.  

As a relatively young person I just wish I could have been alive when many of these horses raced.

Cheers,

Heather

HLLIKINS 21 Jul 2009 4:08 PM

Draynay writes: "The fact that many took Secretariat tells me all I need to know about many here. Somewhere Prove Out and Onion are cracking up!" The fact most have Secretariat winning just means most racing fans here think he's the best of the best. Who is the better golfer, Tiger Woods or Rich Beem? Wait, Rich Beem beat Tiger head to head in the 2002 PGA, so in your delusional world, Draynay, Beem must be better. It doesn't work like that.  

steve from st. louis 21 Jul 2009 4:08 PM

I really think Bid would go off favored in that race....I'm boxing Bid and Secretariat, and throwing in Buckpasser!! HA!! "Throw in" Buckpasser!!

Matthew W 21 Jul 2009 4:15 PM

When the cal-bred tiznow 2000 was looked in the eye by the others, he dug deeper and still got the job done. making it three BC in a row. two for real and your fantasy

to old to know better 21 Jul 2009 4:24 PM

How about Secretariat and Man O'War in a dead heat? If not, then Secretariat followed by Man O'War, Citation, and The Bid.

Karen in Texas 21 Jul 2009 4:24 PM

Karen in Indiana beat me to it - there are a number of videos of Man O'War posted on YouTube.

For me it's Big Red - Man O'War - not only did he crush his opponents carrying heavy weight and set track, stakes and world records while doing it - as others have pointed out, he often raced with his jockey pulling his nose into his chest.  

He won the Travers is 2:01.8, a time not bettered, I think, until Buckpasser did it.  A time that would have won almost all of the last 20 Travers, and if pushed, he might have gone even faster.

It's fun to speculate, and I think MOW would be followed under the wire by Secretariat and Spectacular Bid.

But make the race 2 miles, and you know, Kelso might have something to say about that!

s lee 21 Jul 2009 4:27 PM

I still feel bad about my Northern Dancer comment so, to make me feel better, let me say that Jason: if you were polling for the greatest SIRE ever, Northern Dancer wins hands down with St. Simon second and I'm not sure about third: Saddlers' Wells, Danehill, Sunday Silence, Nasrullah,....

There....now I feel better.

Thanks.

mz 21 Jul 2009 4:31 PM

Jason.  All you need to do now is put up some bands and have a poll there. LOL :)

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 4:38 PM

I think, if at his best, Secretariat would win.  But one also wonders what would the starting positions be, which jockey would handle his horse best, track conditions, etc.  They are/were all such magnificent horses.

Jim H 21 Jul 2009 4:47 PM

What about the "Great" Round Table!!!!!!!!!

-He consistantly spotted the most weight out of anybody! I truly believe he would win even if the race was on dirt..........................on grass.......he would kill everybody

Tom Conway 21 Jul 2009 4:49 PM

Okay folks if you want best ever and include bred in North America and stood stud in KY then Nijinsky beats everyone with Bid second, Man O'War third.

bnijinsky 21 Jul 2009 4:50 PM

Ted from L.A., Steve from St. Louis, and Draynay you guys make me laugh my head off. Really funny in a good way.

90Proof, you make very good points about Citation. It's a tough call. If Secretariat hadn't won the Belmont by 20th lengths I would be hard pressed not to put him first. But I am going by what I saw and that was a jet propelled equine. To me, there are three greats in racing that stand out just about par with each other and above everyone else-Secretariat, Man O'War, and Citation.

Paula Higgins 21 Jul 2009 4:50 PM

Seattle Slew wins from Cigar and Tiznow.  For proof HE is the greatest stallion ever, look at how well A P Indy, Pulpit, Tapit, Sky Mesa, Tiznow, (Cigar would have been a great stallion had he not been totally unique!)etc etc etc are doing and then there are Slew's broodmares and their offspring like Offlee Wild, Stormy Atlantic and co!  What does the immortal Seattle Slew have to do to prove his greatness?  

The only unbeaten Triple Crown Winner and the only Triple Crown Winner to beat one (Affirmed!) twice!!!!  Forget The Tavers - Billy Turner hated running him in that; he knew that Seattle Slew needed a rest after his triple Crown heroics. But his owners got greedy - darn them!

As a racehorse and stallion SEATTLE SLEW is PERFECTION personnified oh ye blind ones!!!!!!!!!

I rest my case and I am entitled to my opinion.  You are all entitled to yours too but Stop underestimating the true CHAMP!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

Abbie Knowles 21 Jul 2009 4:54 PM

Spectacular Bid 1:57 4/5 126 lbs...I mean, he's the Bid.

Dahoss and I agree the WORLD RECORD holder wins this hands down. Bring to us a horse faster at the distance and then we will talk.

I think some of you need to look up the great Citation and The Bid and get a reality check.

Can you imagine Secretariat trying to carry 126 lbs. lol... folks he was a great horse and peaked at the right time but after Belmont he lost his last 2 of 3 on dirt and a nobody named Prove Out whipped him bad by 4 1/2 lengths. What else can you people see through those rose colored glasses.

Draynay 21 Jul 2009 4:56 PM

At Belmont, Secretariat would win by open lengths, and everyone else would be competing for second money.None of the others mentioned traversed the 1 5/8 Marshall Turf Course at Woodbine with the stamina and speed of Secretariat and that is my benchmark.

mike williams 21 Jul 2009 5:00 PM

Man O'War in front all the way.  And maybe Kelso, second...wouldn't it be great to witness such a battle!  And Draynay, don't forget Angle Light, laughing right along with Prove Out and Onion!  

Marcia 21 Jul 2009 5:13 PM

mz....

I feel that Slew is the best sire in the 20th century.  ND was good but not as good as Slew IMO.  :)

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 5:28 PM

I just defer to the late Charles Hatton, Louisville native, who just happened to be the greatest thoroughbred observer in our country's history. He SAW Man 'o War run and said, "Secretariat was as close to a living flame that there was." He selected the Bold Ruler colt as the "Horse of the Century". I'm not sure, but I don't think Onion or Prove Out were on his ballot.

steve from st. louis 21 Jul 2009 5:30 PM

Sorry for the extra post, but I just wanted to add (for Draynay's benefit) that every colt or gelding carries 126 pounds in the three Triple Crown races, so Secretariat's world record in the Belmont WAS under 126 pounds. I don't have to "imagine" him carrying that weight.

steve from st. louis 21 Jul 2009 5:34 PM

Hey Dray: if Prove Out & Onion are laughing does that mean Da'Tara, Garden District & Sara Louise pointing & giggling at your thoughts of 'greatness'?

Lady Ruffian 21 Jul 2009 5:36 PM

Man O' War carried top weights and won with his jockey never giving him his head so beyond a doubt he would be out in front with Seattle Slew showing his true greatness by coming in second with Affirmed slugging it out with Spectacular Bid and Seabiscuit.

Julie L. 21 Jul 2009 5:43 PM

SPECTACULAR BID! 1:57and 4. Not to metion, analyze the chart and the interior fractions and how fast BID ran all the way around. Plus Shoemaker is the Jockey!

Josh 21 Jul 2009 5:46 PM

"Draynay", you don't know what you are talking about! Secretariat would stomp this field! The few times he lost were the days he wasn't at his best. You're just trying to get attention. NO ONE has ever broken his 1-1/2 mile record, and NO ONE EVER will! His Derby record still stands! And he could win on the turf too! Curlin couldn't do that! Big Brown hardly did in his last race! (Sorry, Big Brown, I still love you.) Secretariat was a faster horse than all of them, and he had a bigger heart. I mean, 22, TWENTY-TWO POUNDS! This is a horse that loves to run, and is the best at it! Obviously, you know nothing! Just because he's been beaten before, doesn't mean he's not the best. Rachel's been beaten, Curlin's been beaten, Man O' War has been beaten, Native Dancer has been beaten,Citation has been beaten, so has Kelso, Affirmed, Seabiscuit, the Bid, Forego, Seattle Slew, Cigar, Tiznow, and War Admiral!!! Think about that! I rest my case. SECRETARIAT ALL THE WAY!!!

SmartyJones04 21 Jul 2009 5:51 PM

Joe Palmer, of the Blood-Horse, said Man O'War was "as near to living flame as horses get".

See, for example,

www.spiletta.com/.../manowar.html

Did Charles Hatton borrow that quote?  ;-)

s lee 21 Jul 2009 6:01 PM

StardustyRose: don't go there!!!  

You're going to make me bring up the Draynay Twins: RA and BB so that I can get him on my side and then where will I be: AGREEING WITH DRAYNAY!!  nooooooooooooo!!!

Seriously, though, come on.  Every great horse nowadays traces in some way to my boy.  

(and Jason: I'm waiting for the poll on Sprinters and Fillies and Mares.  Are you thinking about a Turf poll too? And if so, will you be including the Europeans and Australians and New Zealandites?)

mz 21 Jul 2009 6:05 PM

So what if SECRETARIAT lost to ONION and PROVE OUT? Horses lose, and you need to get over it. For a horse like SECRETARIAT to lose to ONION you know SECRETARIAT had to be sick that day. As for PROVE OUT, he was a very good horse in the fall of 1973, he beat HALO, FOREGO, SECRETARIAT, SUMMER GUEST, COUGAR II and RIVA RIDGE, so I sure can't fault PROVE OUT's ability. I'm glad some of you are able to freely make fun of him, however.

SEATTLE SLEW lost to DR. PATCHES, J.O. TOBIN, TEXT, AFFILIATE and EXCELLER. Is anyone laughing at that? No. And they shouldn't.

AFFIRMED lost to ALYDAR, SEATTLE SLEW, EXCELLER, GREAT CONTRACTOR, LITTLE REB and RADAR AHEAD (plus another horse that I can't identify). Where's the laughter regarding those losses? There shouldn't be any laughter, because horses do lose! Even the greatest horses lose...and so what?

I don't see what's so funny about SECRETARIAT losing a few races. He finished first 17 times (disqualified once) and in his wins he was incredibly dominant and even moved "like a tremendous machine." I don't see what there is to fault.

Mike S 21 Jul 2009 6:09 PM

I have to go with Secretariat, especially running at Belmont.  Belmont is his track!  But with this field it sure wouldn't be by 31 lengths.  Man O'War nose-to-nose with him and The Bid and Citation only a head back.  I have to also put Cigar up close too.  Cigar was consistant and had what he needed when he needed it.

TerriV 21 Jul 2009 6:11 PM

Dray,

I picked Secretariat.  Does that tell you all you need to know about me?  Does that remind you that I had Summer Bird in my Belmont picks in the contest?  Does that remind you that I helped to send you to the handicapping sidelines for 30 days?  Ahh, the contest.  I am still master of this domain.

Ted from LA 21 Jul 2009 6:16 PM

WITHOUT A DOUBT:

Spectacular Bid

nuff said

Bill Smith 21 Jul 2009 6:26 PM

Man o' War all the way, Citation 2nd and Cigar and Tiznow dead-heating for 3rd.

Maka 21 Jul 2009 6:49 PM

I have to agree with those few who mentioned Phar Lap. Look at comparable records btw the top three... My favorite always has and always will be Man O' War, but had he ran against Phar Lap, I'm ashamed to say I would bet em both!

SundaySilenced 21 Jul 2009 6:57 PM

Paula,

Secretariat won the Belmont by 31 lengths.  His record will never be broken.

All the horses are fantastic for this fantasy race.  I'd really have to think about it.  All of them would have a chance and Draynay, it's getting old, regarding your constant harping about how Secretariat lost after the Belmont.  Get over it.

MonicaV 21 Jul 2009 6:57 PM

Secretariat, I feel, lost to Angle Light because his odds would be better in the Derby with a loss in the Wood.  

MonicaV 21 Jul 2009 6:59 PM

Paula....my thoughts almost exactly but it would be Man O'War, Secretariat and Citation, the two big Reds first.  It's really hard to say who would win as each and every horse that is listed on the Classic board was a winner in his own right and day, so we will string them all across the track and all come in first, that's the only way to do it.  

lobieb 21 Jul 2009 7:01 PM

1st - Secretariat by a 1/2 length in a new world record time!

2nd - Citation    by 2 lengths who also breaks the old world record!

3rd - Spectacular Bid   Dead Heat

4th - Man O' War       Dead Heat

The rest are left in their wake, some 10 lengths back.  

Jeff 21 Jul 2009 7:02 PM

Secretariat wins all the way then Man o War

meleah 21 Jul 2009 7:07 PM

I dare anyone here to justify placing Secretariat ahead of Citation.  Secretariat does not stack up to Citation's first 2 years 29 races 27 wins.

Draynay 21 Jul 2009 7:11 PM

Thanks Stardusty Rose!!!!!!!!!!!!  But he is the best of any Century!  In my view Seattle Slew is the King of Horses and Dahlia the Queen!!!!!!!

God Bless

Best Wishes

Abbie

Abbie Knowles 21 Jul 2009 7:33 PM

Just throwing a question out there in reference to the Bid's 1 1/4 mile record, Candy Ride did not equal that in any of his performances, correct?  For some reason I thought he was under 1:59 for the mile and a quarter.  Anybody know?  Thanks,

Heather

HLLIKINS 21 Jul 2009 7:36 PM

I've got two words for you:

       ROUND TABLE

Roxanne 21 Jul 2009 7:39 PM

This would be a great race! I was torn between several but voted for Man O'War. If we are assuming everyone on the list is getting a perfect trip and is having their best day, MOW would get the chance to show us why we(who have never seen him) are still talking about him 90 years later. I also think alot would depend on who was riding who. Do they have their jockey from the past(and if so does Affirmed get Laffit or Steve? Who will Shoe ride?) or a current rider? I would sub Native Dancer in for Seabiscuit and maybe Phar Lap for (I almost can't say it) Cigar or Tiznow (I'm sorry Cigar, it doesn't mean I don't love you).

barb 21 Jul 2009 7:51 PM

I saw Secretariat run in the TC races. At Belmont? He literally took our breath away. Remember watching him come down the lane and just not being able to breathe.

He was amazing to watch live.

I never saw Man O' War, but from several old timers (including my Dad) who saw them both run live? Like Steve from SL says? They all were amazed and stunned by Secretariat and his power. Hatton also said "His only point of reference is himself."

Anyone who was over the age of 6 and a racing fan, wanted to see him run, did whatever they could to watch him, get the magazines like Time, Newsweek and SI (still have them). As has been said over and over, he was a hero when this country needed one in the worst way. Know a lot of us needed a positive boost right about then. For those who lived through that time as an adult over 18 you know what I mean.

Are there any other Race Horses in the Top 50 greatest athletes of the 20th Century?

His record for 1 1/2 miles on dirt was amazing as is the calculation of a Beyer of 139.

Tim G 21 Jul 2009 7:56 PM

Correction (my grandad saw them both run, told me the stories when he was pretty old as did his friends who saw them both.)

Tim G 21 Jul 2009 8:00 PM

Ummmm.... Jason, Secretariat won more races on dirt at a mile or less than he did over a mile does that put him on the sprint tote board too?

Draynay 21 Jul 2009 8:02 PM

I was there on that cool, clear, windy day for Bid's Strub---I walked up the trail to "meet" up with Bid and Bud, coming to the saddling barn...then watched him go past the clockers corner twice...last then first, with an early move into that torrid pace!....best I ever saw (in person).....also he was tops as 2yo...tops as 3yo...tops as older horse...from 6 1/2 fur thru 1 1/4 he was 26 for 26.....nice group tom in the Oceanside, I think #8 Afleet Eagle, first time turf/first time stakes---is way live! Also think #9 in the ninth, Perfect Hostess, is way live...

Matthew W 21 Jul 2009 8:02 PM

Depends, is it a Classic on dirt or plastic?

Classic Race 21 Jul 2009 8:10 PM

Monica, don't forget Secretariat also was found to have an abscess in his mouth after the Wood, some say Lucien knew about it before hand. How many of us can do what we normally do with an abscess?

Also,as for those harping on losing a race after running in the Belmont, winning it in record time by 31 lengths? Look at how hard that race has been on so many horses, a BIG part of the reason Jess didn't run RA.

 

Tim G 21 Jul 2009 8:17 PM

This very question is entertained at length in the recent publication, "The Challenge Cup," discussing just such a race held between the greats of the era 1970 through 2005.  It doesn't include horses racing earlier than 1970 but it's still a heck of a field, and highly contentious.

Vic 21 Jul 2009 8:26 PM

Harry's Mini Burgers, yum.

For those of you who are Facebook followers or Twitter buddies (you know who you are). Go look at it on Facebook. There are some cool pictures of the wall, the boards.

Wow, Dray finally recognized how Great Big Red was, see you finally realized he was VERSATILE TOO!

Shawn P 21 Jul 2009 8:31 PM

It would be a dead heat between the Bid and the great Invasor with Citation and Secretariat dueling it out for the show spot about 3 lengths back.

democraticjack 21 Jul 2009 8:46 PM

Jason my other overlay is Affirmed, under Laffit (unbeaten), as he ran BIG as older horse, also think Swaps belongs, I have him #5 all-time after Bid, Secretariat, Man O war (original "Big Red"), Citation.....

MatthewW 21 Jul 2009 8:50 PM

Hllikins:

Candy Ride:

• Candy Ride went 6 for 6

• Won Pacific Classic in 1.59.11 defeating Medaglia d’Oro, Fleetstreet Dancer & Milwaukee Brew setting the track record.

• As far as I know, that was his only 1-1/4M race

• He does show a 1600M or 1-mile win in a G-1 Turf race in 1.31.01 at Gran Premio Internacional in Argentina and another 1-M win G-1 Turf race in 1.32.16 at Gran Premio San Isidro in Argentina

LAZMANNICK 21 Jul 2009 8:53 PM

31. Period.

Soldier Course 21 Jul 2009 9:26 PM

Stardusty Rose:

Seattle Slew was a formidable sire, no doubt about it, but we're talking about Northern Dancer, a sire that was so good that during his hay day it cost a cool one million to breed to him and there was no guarantee of a live foal.  Even at that, breeders were lining up.

His greatest strengths were as a sire of sires and as a paternal grand sire.  He was also a pretty good broodmare sire and his sons and daughters that raced were top flight.

He has been dead since the early nineties, but even so there are more Northern Dancer-line Breeders Cup winners than by any other sire.

What would be interesting is to have the Bloodhorse do a Greatest Sire of the Century contest.  There are so many good ones.

LAZMANNICK 21 Jul 2009 9:51 PM

I would have to cheer for Citation since he is my favorite TC champion and had a brilliant career.  The horse never ran more than he had to when beating competition and his wins were never by impressive margins, he was just happy being first at the wire.  It would be great to see a stretch battle between Citation, Secretariat and Man o'War with Citation sticking his head out at the finish line winning the race.  

silverscrngirl 21 Jul 2009 10:19 PM

Secretariat would win this race, Citation second, Big Brown third (until Kent Desormeaux pulls him up when he realizes he can't win), Sham completes the tri.

Ted from LA 21 Jul 2009 10:39 PM

mz.  LOL you'r funny.  I do really believe that Slew was the greatest.  I don't think he would have beaten Big Red in a race BUT all in all he was the BEST of all!

Abbie Knowles...  and Stardust knows that Seattle Slew was the greatest of all time.  :)

LAZMANNICK... Well in this case we will have to agree to dissagree.  I am not budging on this one :).  Love my Slew and all his daughters, sons, grandaughters and sons and on and on and on and on...... :)  

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 10:39 PM

What horse holds the track record at Belmont, going 1 1/4 mile ? Thats who I vote for.

Michele 21 Jul 2009 10:46 PM

Sweet Seattle Slew.... Race Record...  :)  

Race Record in North America

         1976     3     3     0     0       $94,350

         1977     7     6     0     0      $641,370

         1978     7     5     2     0      $473,006

        Totals   17    14     2     0    $1,208,726 (SSI=104.98)

           1976       Champion Two Year Old Colt (Tri)

           1977       Champion Three Year Old Colt

           1977       Horse Of The Year

           1978       Champion Older Horse

           1978 1st   Marlboro Cup H. -G1 ($300,000, Bel)

           1977 1st   Belmont S. -G1 ($150,000, Bel)

           1977 1st   Preakness S. -G1 ($150,000, Pim)

           1978 1st   Woodward S. -G1 ($150,000, Bel)

           1976 1st   Champagne S. -G1 ($125,000, Bel)

           1977 1st   Kentucky Derby -G1 ($125,000, Cd)

           1977 1st   Wood Memorial -G1 ($100,000, Aqu)

           1977 1st   Flamingo S. -G1 ($100,000, Hia)

           1978 1st   Stuyvesant H. -G3 ($100,000, Aqu)

           1978 2nd   Jockey Club Gold Cup -G1 ($300,000, Bel)

           1978 2nd   Paterson H. ($150,000, Med)

           1977       Ntr Hia 7.00f 1 20 3

           1978       Ntr Bel 10.00f 2 00 0

StardustyRose 21 Jul 2009 10:48 PM

I am crushing the Secretariat / Tiznow exacta

Secretariat's amazing perfomrance - Derby Record, Pimlico Track record, World record Belont, in what is considered the most difficult three race series there is.  Tiznow? - he beat Sahkee and Giants Causeway in successive years.  No body in the field ever faced anything like those two.

How good was Giants Causeway? Won five Group 1's and maybe the greatest UK field ever assembled when he beat Fantastic Light, Sahkee, and Kalanisi - two winners of BC turf and the winner of L'Arc.

Come to think of it, I might heavy up with Tiznow!!!!!

RCW 21 Jul 2009 11:12 PM

Carrying equal weight?

The others will wear themselves out in a speed duel up front, then at the last second...

Forego on the outside! Forego on the outside! Too close to call!

Caroline S 21 Jul 2009 11:22 PM

Can't believe Native Dancer is not on the list!  As for the list as it stands, I see Affirmed, War Admiral and Spectacular Bid in that order setting the pace.  At the finish, I have Citation 1st, a dead heat for second with the Bid and Man O'War with Secretariat a close up 3rd. These are some great horses but I would not have included Tiznow, Cigar or Seabiscuit with that group. I am a racing history buff and have books and newspaper/magazine articles on many of the great ones - what amazing animals they are!  I would also add Whirlaway to the list - have a book about him too that details his career and he is another like the Dancer that did not get the credit he deserved. BUT, in MY OPINION, Native Dancer would be the winner over all.

Racingfan 21 Jul 2009 11:23 PM

Secretariat!

Not only did he break records, he did it all. On every surface, distance and had the "heart" and passed it on for generations to see.

eliz 21 Jul 2009 11:31 PM

Man O'War all the way. Carried huge weights, set records, and raced when horses didn't use a starting gate.  I think Secretariat would be a close second. We never saw him at his best either (scary thought, just how good were these colts?).

After that, it's up to the trip and the conditions, but I'd likely put Citation in for third.

There are so many greats that could have been included, like Ribot, Domino, Native Dancer etc. If they raced at 2 instead, no one could touch The Tetrarch, but at 3 or 4 at a mile and a quarter, I think Man O'War followed by Secretariat.

Terry 21 Jul 2009 11:50 PM

Through 651 votes, the great Kelso has 5, count them 5, votes as the 5-1 fourth choice. Wow.

I just cant believe Secretariat is running away with this the way that he is. Pretty surprising.

jshandler 21 Jul 2009 11:54 PM

Jason,

It's like asking who would win a home run derby.  People tend to remember the athletes they saw perform in person or on TV better and, therefore, vote for them in these kind of polls.  If Kelso ran in the late 1990s he'd have several more votes.  The problem is, the same applies in politics and that is how George W. Bush gets elected not once, but twice.  But I digress, this is about Dray and me and my superiority over him in picking races.  Summer Bird, makes me feel fine.

Ted from LA 22 Jul 2009 12:09 AM

Good point Ted. I, for one, cannot call an athlete the best of all-time unless they have been superior for a long period of time in their given sport. For example, Sandy Koufax may have been the most dominate picther in MLB history for a 5-year period, but he retired soon after. He can't be compared to pitchers like Cy Young, W,alter Johnson, or even Greg Maddux who did it for 20+ years.

In racing, Secretariat may have had the best TC season ever, but I cant call him the greatest ever, or even of his decade, when others dominated at age 4 and beyond. But then again, there is no framed photo of Citation's rider looking over his shoulder in the Belmont that people can hang on their wall.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 12:17 AM

Jason.  Look at his Belmont win.  AFTER two TC races.  I think that is why everyone is going for Secretriat.  I did but I really in my heart would take Slew.  :)

StardustyRose 22 Jul 2009 12:21 AM

Yes, Ted and Jason, good point about television.  And I think Seabiscuit and War Admiral, while wonderful, got on the list because of the book/movie.  And because of that, we're missing Native Dancer, Buckpasser, Swaps, Nashua, Damascus, Exterminator, Domino and any horse who ran before 1900.  

And speaking of great geldings, what about John Henry?  Wouldn't you have loved to have seen him in this race?

Still, 4YO or 5YO Forego at level weights would be tough to beat, IMO -- though Kelso and Man O War and Citation would have given him a run for his money, with Secretariat in the mix.  Can I just vote for all of them to deadheat?

mz 22 Jul 2009 1:05 AM

JASON,

It should be a 14 horse field that should also include Native Dancer, Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and Sunday Silence.  War Admiral and Tiznow sholud be on the contingency list in case of scratches (LOL).

My trifecta assumes that each horse brings his best race to to fantasy classic: 1)Secretariat 2)Spectacular Bid 3)Man O'War

Ranagulzion 22 Jul 2009 3:18 AM

I think with his ability to rate with a fast pace like this race would surely have I have to go with secretariat. I think with his guttyness and determination alone affirmed 2nd. then Mow, and cit.I would like to see Sham get the respect he deserves and be added to the list.

jim2365 22 Jul 2009 4:07 AM

This is a really fun blog, loved reading all the comments. For me Its Man O' War (the original BIG RED) Hands down followed by The Bid and Citation. As I read through all the blogs keeping a mental note of what others have written it doesn't seem like Secretariat should be running away with this, just an observation but I think there are lot of voters for Secretariat that have not commented or supported their votes. Ted, you said it right about, its about what have you done for us lately there is so much written about Secretariat and of course the tv clips and being more current, how could the public not vote for him. He was a great horse and deserves his place in history but I can't say he's the best ever. I would also add Phar Lap to the list. Someone mentioned about the size of Secretariats heart if you do some looking you can find out that Phar Laps heart was just as big. At the KHP just before the statue of Man O' War there are the markers that show the length of stride of John Henry, Secretariat and Man O' War, Man O' War's stride eclipses both.  We know that he was never fully extended in any of his races and ran under a tight almost strangle hold most of the time, I would say that should tell us something about how much faster he could have run.

Rowner 22 Jul 2009 4:31 AM

The original Big Red (Manowar)!!!!!!!! Then a toss for Secretariat, Citation and Bid. Maybe Tiznow to mix it up some because he ran two gutty races to win his races back to back. I like the Idea of the greatist sires someone mentioned earlier that could be fun to.

weezerb 22 Jul 2009 5:04 AM

Cigar at 20-1 seems like good value, after all he is the best modern horse.  I also think Ghostzapper should be on the list, he was a beast too, and I think he would be a better fit than Tiznow.  Plus his wire to wire style may work here.  Seems like a race where everyone would want to rate a bit and not take the lead thus causing a slow pace allowing for a front runner to steal it.

ted 22 Jul 2009 5:58 AM

S Lee: Thanks for correcting my feeble mind. It was Professor Joe Palmer who annoited Man 'o War as the "living flame", not Hatton. Hatton did say Secretariat "defined the blooded horse in his terms". ESPN had Secretariat as one of the 50 Greatest Athletes of All Time. Faint praise? I think not.  

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 8:38 AM

"The fact that many took Secretariat tells me all I need to know about many here."

Draynay 21 Jul 2009 3:51 PM

Why is it nay nay needs a reminder already that the "many here" just recently whipped his sorry butt handicapping and got him banned for a month? That butt kicking is all you need to know about "many here." You had your chance and blew it nay nay. Time to quit bashing those who proved better handicappers than you. Let them have their own opinion.

Rose colored glasses aside nay nay is often stricken with tunnel vision. To add to his woes the tunnel changes sometimes almost on a daily basis. Remember how many different horses he claimed would win the KY Derby this year and with that he never got it right.

One could make a strong case for any horse on this list. They wouldn't be there if you couldn't. It comes down to a matter of opinion and everybody is entitled to that. It's hard to vote for a horse you never saw run. What it comes down to then is you have to take someone elses opinion of them. The "many here" have already proven their opinion is far better than nay nay's so forget about him when he knocks your choice.

My vote goes to the Bid. Isn't it ironic that I would choose the same horse as nay nay? That's probably the kiss of death right there. Spectacular Bid is the most consistent and best I've ever seen run. I won't spend time knocking down any of the others. As I said before you can make a good case for anyone of them. Remember there is no wrong choice here, on their best day anyone of these could probably come out on top.

slyder 22 Jul 2009 8:40 AM

Agreed Jason.  I have that photo of Secretariat at home and at work.  I think we all aspire to perfection (as elusive as it is), but that photo is one of the closest things I have to remind me of it.

Ted from LA 22 Jul 2009 9:13 AM

Secretariat was the first media Superstar, he's no better than 3rd on the alltime list and PlEASE I BEG YOU! just learn about Citation, his 2 and 3 year old years are way more impressive than 31 lengths in The Belmont. I'd go as far as to say the Derby was Secretariat's most impressive Triple Crown race, he was way wide the whole way and his ragozin had there been such a thing in those days would show that may have been as good a race as ever run considering how geared down he was at the end. I agree there are only 3 great horses and then a slew of those on the cusp of greatness, Citation, Man O War, and Secretariat are the 3.

90Proof 22 Jul 2009 9:28 AM

Many good points indeed....We need to have different categories and narrow it down. So many "greats" known for their own extraordinary accomplishments!

eliz 22 Jul 2009 9:51 AM

Jason, that's why I vote for Man O'War. He was a dominating 2-yr. old & 3 yr. old, he set or equaled numerous track records and he did this with sometimes only 1 or 2 weeks between races. I watched Secretariat's races with my eyes big as saucers and my mouth hanging open, they still give me goose bumps. But Man O'War's record and the fact that he did all of this with weights the horses now wouldn't dream of carrying and usually under wraps speaks for itself.

Karen in Indiana 22 Jul 2009 9:53 AM

All those horses are fine and dandy but you don't have the "fastest horse ever" on the list. Personally I am a Cigar fan and bias of him. However the fastest 1 1/4th ever ran in teh Classic belongs to Ghostzapper the Freak! He set records from 6 furlongs to 1 1/4th. Are you sure any of the greats of all time could keep up with him? I'm not too sure they could! Secretariat maybe! Man O' War probably but none of the rest of them want any part of the Ghost!

HarryP 22 Jul 2009 10:02 AM

Where is Ghostzapper? Seriously.

ted 22 Jul 2009 10:24 AM

If we assume that we get each horses best performance, Secretariat wins hands down.  There is simply no logical way to argue anyone else winning.

I find it odd that Count Fleet, in my opinion the second greatest Triple Crown winner (behind Secretariat and ahead of Citation) is not in the field.  I also find it odd that Whirlaway is not in the field.  

I agree that the Bid is the biggest overlay.  I think he would finish 2nd to Secretariat, with Count Fleet taking third.

Man O'War, please.  This isn't a two horse or three horse field of overmatched horses for him to beat.  He finishes up the track.

Great blog Jason.

2:24 22 Jul 2009 10:40 AM

The Red Machine is over-rated. Beat nobody. I'm going with Seattle Slew. Only Triple Crown winner to beat another (Affirmed). Why is he 15-1? Looks like a good bet at those odds!

Stivo75 22 Jul 2009 10:43 AM

Draynay, seriously, do you know anything about horse racing history?  Obviously not.  Your callously dismissing Prove Out is obnoxious and shows how you don't know nearly as much as you think.  Also, you fail to mention that, after the Triple Crown, Secretariat beat the greatest single collection of racehorses in the Marlboro Cup.  All of them older than he was.

I would never say anything bad about The Bid, an awesome horse, but is Coastal laughing someplace alongside Prove Out and Onion (Onion probably not after the Marlboro Cup).  What about Upset?  Is he there laughing too?

2:24 22 Jul 2009 10:47 AM

Unfortunately, Secretariat was one in the now common trend of sending

them to the breeding shed after their 3 year old year. I can see why they did it with him, not so much why they've done it with some after him. Although he didn't replicate himself (not many have done that) Penny syndicated him and that agreement kept him from racing past age three. Remember too his last race was on the grass (second time in his career) & his first race at 1 5/8ths against older horses, with a new jockey and he won by 6 1/2 lengths.

As far as longevity or super performances making someone great?

Very few sports which are incredibly taxing have many with longevity who are able to perform as the MVP etc year after year.

Face it, how many of those paunchy overweight baseball players could be the GREATEST in a sport whch really tested your physical abilities to the very limit. A few have done it, like Carl Lewis, a few jockeys and some like that.

My feeling is Secretariat was just starting to get his second wind after the tough TC series (remember he won it after 25 years

with no TC winner).

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 10:57 AM

Actually Steve from ST Louis, as I commented above Hatton's quote was:

"His only point of reference is himself."

Also, the ESPN award was for the Top 50 greatest of the 20th Century.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 11:02 AM

Secretariat had more physical ability than the rest of the immensely talented field. Hatton had it right when he first saw Secretariat at Saratoga ("WOW").

ROBO 22 Jul 2009 11:03 AM

Ted from La, 2:24 and Slyder:

You all Rock.

Stardusty Rose:

I see that Draynay isn't the only one who is stuborn on this BLOG...Tch, Tch....LOL.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 11:11 AM

You must have been born in 1980 if you consider Spectacular Bid the best horse of your lifetime.  Affirmed owned him in 1979, while carrying more weight.  Spectacular Bid was great, but his exploits were exaggerated by running on the lightning-fast tracks in California in 1980.  He was barely beating Flying Paster, who wasn't exactly an all-time great.

Secretariat was a level above any other horse and wins this decisively.  The only threat would be Seattle Slew getting out to an easy lead.

PJ 22 Jul 2009 11:21 AM

2:24 like it or not Secretariat is a 3 race hero.  Its a good thing he took to turf and won those last 2 races because he seemed to be all washed up on dirt.  After Belmont he never won a Grade 1 on dirt again and lost 2 of his last 3 to Onion and Prove Out.  They sent him off to turf because he just wasn't looking good on dirt anymore.  That is why any comparison to Citation at 2 and 3 vs. Secretariat is silly.  Citation won 27 of 29 a much better record than Secretariat's 16 of 21.  Not to mention Citation did something during that time Secretariat NEVER CAME CLOSE TO DOING winning 15 in a row ! The Bid also has a better record and won races above 130 lbs.  Secretariat never won over 126 lbs. and lost twice at just 119lbs.

Now let me discuss my handicapping ability.  I was choosing the same two horses as the board.  I wanted the outcome to be between Dunkirk and the Derby mud winner. Never in a million years did I expect Summer Bird to get more votes than Chocolate Candy.  I wanted to win or lose on the battle between Dunkirk and the Fluke because I was sure Dunkirk was better than the Fluke. Had I just waited until the blogs votes were in I would have won but that is what I get for assuming the board would take CC over the Summer Bird.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 11:23 AM

I know I, probably unfairly, denigrate those runners who do not replicate themselves in the breeding shed. Do we downgrade Citation because he was sterile? I do, unfairly. When The Bid ran in Chicago, I got a chance to be in his stall and he was a spectacular specimen, dappling out like no horse I've ever seen. But in the breeding shed, he fell down, so even though he was probably the most accomplished older horse we've seen in 25 years, I unfairly downgrade him as a thoroughbred. Secretariat never replicated himself (how could he?) but Lady's Secret, Terlingua, Risen Star and General Assembly weren't chopped liver and his daughters ended up being fantastic broodmares, producing Storm Cat, Chief's Crown, half-brothers Summer Squall and A.P. Indy, Gone West, etc., with Storm Cat and A.P. Indy sure chef-de-race influences. BTW, 2:24 is such a great moniker. Thanks, Jason, for the 99% who congregate here.

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 11:27 AM

Why isn't Mine That Bird on the list? I just love that little freak!! He makes my man squirm at the mere mention of his name.

I'm going with Seabiscuit. I loved the movie and have a huge crush on Gary Stevens. Sorry honey, he's my "fantasy" guy. You've got Paris Hilton, I've got him.

I just can't get myself to go with Spectacular Bid. Maybe it's the worn out underwear adorned with his picture that dear ole hubby seems to wear everyday that's clouding my opinion.

I'd put Secratariat in the second slot. I just feel sorry for the poor horse who's picture graces draynay's dart board. He doesn't show much respect for a Triple Crown winner who set records that may never be matched.

For the Show I'll go with Cigar. If I can't have Gary Stevens I'll settle for Jerry Bailey. That leaves you with Nicole Ritchey honey if Paris doesn't cooperate.

To round out my superfecta I'll take "the field". Ha ha you can't say I haven't learned anything living with the draynay. Take them all and you can't be wrong!!

Happy day everyone!!

Peace, out

draynays better half 22 Jul 2009 11:59 AM

Secretariat never came close to carrying the weight MOW did. It wasn't so much that MOW beat nobody but he was so dominate and he was never let run at full speed. He still set track records in a strangle hold. I'll give Secretariat his due but I think he is no better than 3rd here.

Rowner 22 Jul 2009 12:09 PM

Okay, so, since we are discussing race records and achievments - tell me, who won 43 races, 33 of them stakes, won at sprint and route distances, set track records on both turf and dirt and all while carrying huge imposts.....you won't find him on the list of horses above. No, unfortunately he was left off of the list of choices. But he is the ONLY choice. Still wondering who it is?

It is........

the GREAT Round Table.

Ruby 22 Jul 2009 1:02 PM

PJ Flying Paster was probably the best Cal Bred since Swaps up to 1 1/8, he couldn't handle the tiring (that year) Dreby track/should not have run in Preakness, but he was loaded for bear as a four year old, he looked like Charles Atlas in the Strub walking ring---Bid handled him like he was nothing--Bid also handled good horses like General Assembly & Coastal and, while he did lose that race to Affirmed, it was at 1 1/2 on dirt, just not his cup of tea, he lost by 3/4, at least he tried the great Affirmed--it should be noted that Affirmed's connections (Laz) opted out of the Marlboro Cup because of weights--I'm not sure Affirmed beats Bid at 1 1/4, and I'm practically certain he doesn't touch Bid as a four year old---But that is my point about "best ever"...I think it should be a horse who beat older horses, whether that means running as an older horse or beating them as a three year old--Bid did both....

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 1:17 PM

I'm going with Man O'War. I mean he must be something when the only horse that beats him (Upset) is remembered this long whenever a huge longshot wins a race.

The Rock 22 Jul 2009 1:18 PM

On any given day, any horse in that field could win...with the exception of Tiznow.

BTW, how on Earth is Tiznow in this field instead of Native Dancer?

Makes absolutely no sense.  

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 1:28 PM

2:24, LOL, need you ask?

This is the guy who thought Belmont Park is in Belmont NY and someone (sorry not sure who) corrected him that it was in ELMONT, NY. This is the guy who confused the Bluegrass with a different race and analyzed a horses performance in it, who didn't even RUN the race.

This is someone who 'thinks' he is a handicapper. Guess he emulates the great Mike Battaglia and Hank Goldberg in favorititis.

Never has ONE person had so MANY sure things in such a short period of time, just look at his early Derby picks.

Just remember Dray, the definition of handicapping is "the art of predicting horses who have the greatest chance of winning a race, and profiting from these predictions at the horse races."

NO WHERE does it say,Handicapping:'picking the favorite to win a race, like every other casual fan out there (who liked the horse's name, jockey silks or color of the horse) and making 10 cents on a $2 bet'

Fan, maybe, Handicapper, NOPE.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 1:29 PM

Jason,

Didn't draynay make the statement that he would never call Mine That Bird "the fluke" again? I think that warrants another 30 days in the pokey for him to show that kind of disrespect to the horse and the blog.

As for his handicapping abilty he must not have much confidence in his own picks to base his decisions on someone elses. When he says he chose based on what he thought were to be the blogs picks he proved that. That does explain alot about him though. Choose against what you think the others here are going to choose so you have a foundation to argue with.

The comments on Secratariat being a 3 race hero are ludicrous. His victory in the Marlboro was no gimmee. Unlike draynay's big brown (this must leave him as a 2 race hero by his own logic) Secratariat faced some real racehorses.

Secratariat on his best day could have beaten the entire field here. I like Man-O-War, Secratariat, Spectacular Bid, and Citation. Box them in the trifecta and take the field in fourth for the super underneath them all.

draynays better half what a hoot!!

Thanks for the laugh.

gw_bushwacker 22 Jul 2009 1:30 PM

Now Draynay brings his wife into bat for him. Jeez, what a gelding! Facts are facts. Secretariat DID win on dirt after the Belmont in the Marlboro, probably the best field tip to tail ever. It was the inaugural  Cup, otherwise it surely would have been Grade 1. After his loss to Prove Out in the Woodward (when Turcotte "fell asleep" after a :50 opening half), he came back nine days later and wired the field in the mile and one-half Man'o War (G.1) on the turf, winning by five lengths in 2:24 4/5. In his wake was Mack Miller's Tentam, who had just set a Saratoga track record over the grass. His Canadian International at old Woodbine was just a 1 5/8 mile romp in the park. The record shows he won three of his last four races. Facts are facts.  

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 1:30 PM

Ghostzapper does not belong! MAYBE...Roses In May is "allowed" to engege, which was agrees upon NOT to happen, thanks to Frankel's persuasion...Ghostzppers's Classic is comparable to many races run by Easy Goer--uncontested---greats need the competition! We KNOW he can go 1:59 with a 1:11 pace---WE DON'T know, and never will know, if Ghostzapper can go toe to toe with a good horse--LIKE Tiznow PROVED,....

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 1:42 PM

Now let me discuss my handicapping ability.  I was choosing the same two horses as the board.  I wanted the outcome to be between Dunkirk and the Derby mud winner. Never in a million years did I expect Summer Bird to get more votes than Chocolate Candy.  I wanted to win or lose on the battle between Dunkirk and the Fluke because I was sure Dunkirk was better than the Fluke. Had I just waited until the blogs votes were in I would have won but that is what I get for assuming the board would take CC over the Summer Bird.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 11:23 AM

So, in summary, after much yada  yada yada, and blah blah, blah, you lost

Ted from LA 22 Jul 2009 1:46 PM

steve from st louis,

That's a ringer. Note the sarcasm?

Being a gentleman, I will say nothing further on that subject other than the fact that 'she' kept us entertained with her 'mythological updates' of his mental status (or lack thereof) just prior to and during his banishment

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 1:50 PM

The Bid/Paster Derby match up---I have watched the Derby (on tv) since 1971--There have been no tandems that even come close to the records of Bid/Paster going into that 1979 Derby---They were dominant! I bet on Paster and couldn't believe he finished 5th---Paster was a top horse, I'll take him over Tiznow, Best Pal, Snow Chief up to 1 1/8....

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 1:52 PM

Tiznow belongs, and I commend you for seeing that! He won two classics on the road, the second while not 100%, the first, one of the truly great races ever run v Giants Causeway! Two turn 1 1/4...THAT is the Classic Distance....Tiznow is one of the best EVER at 1 1/4 two turns on dirt! Two Classics, a Big Cap waltz in the park, a Super Derby romp---Tiznow took his good time to develop but when he did he was ALL THAT!!..

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 1:58 PM

Bow to the board Dray.  Or in your case, at least give us a curtsy.

Ted from LA 22 Jul 2009 2:09 PM

LOL, Draynay, you crack me up.  

"2:24 like it or not Secretariat is a 3 race hero."

You still just can't stand to mention the Marlboro Cup, can you?  Too funny.  And way too obvious that mentioning it undermines all your arguments.  

"After Belmont he never won a Grade 1 on dirt again"

Again - Marlboro Cup?  Was a Grade 1 race every year it was graded... not Big Red's fault he ran in the inaugural running.  Oh, wait, it WAS his fault, since there would have been no race without him.

"They sent him off to turf because he just wasn't looking good on dirt anymore."

Ahem.  As you know perfectly well, Secretariat was being pointed to the Man O War (a turf race) BEFORE he ran in the Woodward.  You just like to ignore facts that don't support your point.  You do make me laugh, though!  You're so transparent...

Cleone 22 Jul 2009 2:16 PM

My cut-off year is 75'(I'm 38),that's when I first remember watching/attending the races with my Apa(dad).So I really can't vote for horses before my time,though I'm sure they were outstanding also.

15-1? Ain't that a B!#$H! I'm constantly blown-away by the disrespect Slew' continues to get.I mean,Pound for Pound he's the Best Thoroughbred of ALL time,bar none. Ex: He's the ONLY undefeated TC Champion,Champion 2yo,Champion 3yo & HOY,Champion @ 4yo along with being the most prolific sire of the 20th Century and his genetic saga continues to this day... I'll gladly take Slew' @ equal weights,thinking he'll run them off their feet like he usually did when healthy & in form.As someone else mentioned,Slew' did whup Affirmed(8-1) the 2-times they met,and Affirmed beat the Bid'(10-1),so by process of elimination Slew' trumps them both.What an over-lay,I'd pound him for the win,no doubt.

Jason:  Koufax or Maddux?..hmm,different hitters,different era but I'll take Koufax's dominance(5 no-hitters) over Maddux's 5-6yrs way too long of a very good career.Heck,he wasn't even the best pitcher with the Braves(Glavin). It's akin to comparing say...The Doors to Pearl Jam...lol

Carlos in Cali 22 Jul 2009 2:18 PM

Yeah, to those who think Tiznow doesn't belong, he was a big, quirky horse who took his sweet time to develop---He came around at the right time, first to defeat Giants Causeway, a horse they'll be talking about 100 years from now in England....then, while not 100%, in the Cup following 911, Tiznow came back at Sahkee, with "that big dinosaur head" to quote Lafranko..."wins it for America..."....to quote Billy Idol "they won't forget that--BAY--BEE!"

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 2:24 PM

1. Man O War

2. Seattle Slew

3. Tiznow

Billy's Empire 22 Jul 2009 2:45 PM

Stivo75, you wrote that Secretariat didn't beat anybody?  Are you kidding?

In the Kentucky Derby he beat Sham, a fine horse, winner of the Santa Anita Derby, who also ran the Derby in under 2 minutes.  He also beat a horse named Forego in that race.  Perhaps you've heard of Forego.  In the Marlboro Cup, he defeated two other HOF horses, Riva Ridge and Cougar II as well as other accomplished horses like Key To The Mint, Kennedy Road, and Onion.

2:24 22 Jul 2009 2:48 PM

Matthew W - Tiznow was awesome.  I'm a huge fan.

2:24 22 Jul 2009 2:49 PM

I have often looked at this board & felt the Bid at 10-1 was easy money...but what if Swaps were in the race?  At one time he held something like 6 or 7 world records over distances ranging from 7 furlongs to 2 miles - how could Swaps (with 4 good feet) not take any field?

Davant 22 Jul 2009 2:55 PM

Tim G: No woman would end a love note with "Peace Out". I saw "her" Adam's Apple from here. The skirt, however, was an improvement.

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 2:58 PM

If Tiznow is here after beating so-so fields, why isn't Awesome Again, who beat the best BC Classic field ever in 1998? (8 millionaires, including Touch Gold, Silver Charm, Gentlemen, Skip Away, Coronados Quest, Victory Gallop, Swain, Running Stag). Who can forget the wildest finish ever in the Classic, with the horses stretched across the track that made it look like the end of a quarter horse race? And of note, Victory Gallop closed from about 15 lengths from the far turn to the wire, finishing 4th by a half length in a blanket finish. What a race!

www.youtube.com/watch

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 3:05 PM

Native Dancer definitely belongs on the list.

Jim H 22 Jul 2009 3:14 PM

Notice that we are COMPARING CLASS when we try and figure out who would win this mythical race, not who was the FASTEST like a certain Blogger continuously likes to harp about.

If we're talking about speed, then I know a few claimers that hold track records that should be on this list....WHY AREN'T THEY?

It's intesting to note that this certain Blogger still harps about Secretariat's Grade One race's, or lack of them, when it was pointed out that many of the races he raced in would have been Grade Ones today, but weren't listed as Grade Ones back in the day because Graded status in races was extremely limited....to say the Marlboro Cup Inv. wasn't a Grade One is a pathetic stab at best.

I'm sure glad that this certain Blogger wasn't a racehorse himself.  I wouldn't want to imagine him in the breeding shed trying to duplicate himself.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 3:16 PM

Carlos: Not many things can rile me up more than someone disrespecting Maddux. Are you kidding? Who cares about Koufax's no-hitters? That was 5 games. He had only 6 or 7 good years. Maddux is the only pitcher in MLB history to have 15+ wins in 17 STRAIGHT seasons. And his ERA was under 3 for all but the last 2 years of his career. And he is only 1 of 10 picthers with 350+ wins. And his ERA was 1.5 runs lower than the league average most of his career during a hitter's era. All for a guy who was 5'10", 170 pounds and DIDNT cheat. Did he hang on a couple years too long? Yeah, but so what. He was the best pitcher of our lifetime. No doubt. Look at his numbers vs. Koufax's. No contest.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 3:21 PM

my gut feeling says secretariat but having not seen man o war and citation aye feel limited so lets say man o war,secretariat,citation and spectacular bid makes the superfecta all reports say man o war was unbeatable but secretariat won on everything and was impossible on belmont world record mile n eighth/1.45n2/5 galloping against best horses in training world record mile n half 2.24 by obscene 31lengths this race aye wud have had to see to believe any horse had a bigger heart than the big red which one man o war or secretariat they were both red someone missed the call at the end think tom durkin got too excited and called one for the other (laugh) money on the line

warren fraser 22 Jul 2009 3:26 PM

Spectacular Bid is the biggest overlay in the field at 10-1. You would have to structure all of your bets around him finishing in the top three at 10-1. I also would include war admiral on all of my tickets. Boxes with Man O, Secr, Bid, and Admiral.

Edward 22 Jul 2009 3:27 PM

steve, think it's one of his haters (take your pick)

Although Dray DID say he would appear in a pink dress, somewhere for some lost bet (don't recall the details now). Could be he knows he's a loser or just a crossdresser, not that there's anything wrong with that (don't want to upset anyone).

Jason? Riled up? YOU? Maddux, your dog, cats, disrespect of Pearl Jam (think that's what bothers you the most huh? My kid told me you were listening to them yesterday....)

By the way, I'm trying to remember, help an old guy out here, did you write about baseball for a while?  That would explain your reaction. Once a baseball fan, always a fan! Did you play for a while, as well? Maybe I'm delusional but just a vague memory.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 3:36 PM

Jason you better be first ball swinging with Maddox cuz after 0-1 you won't get a good pitch to hit! A MASTER, BTW one of my dearest friends still can hit your glove from 110 feet, I know I caught him recently---you can close your eyes and he'll put it in your glove from 110 ft, 75-80 mph, last player who will ever break 25 wins in a season...

Matthew W 22 Jul 2009 3:38 PM

dray

secretariat came back to win his next 2 races on the turf setting world records. not to mention when he lost to prove out the time was 2:25 thats faster then RA Big brown and curlin.

thomas 22 Jul 2009 3:39 PM

Oh and ron turcotte said secretariat was a better turf horse then dirt horse. wheres the bid?(great horse but did he win a turf race?)

thomas 22 Jul 2009 3:40 PM

So Jason - how about another contest to ban Dray-NAG again?

Lady Ruffian 22 Jul 2009 3:41 PM

Tim: Believe it or not I am very easy going, don't get riled up often. It's you guys that set me off! :)

Yes, I did write about baseball for a while at the Philly paper I used to work for, although I never played. I love baseball and football. I actually did a long piece on Maddux in 2001 when I had the privilege to interview him in person for about an hour. As down to earth as they come.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 3:41 PM

Who cares about the Marlboro Cup ? It was a made up match race but then decided they had to invite others and make it a real race for betting.

And who cares about a G2 turf race in Canada ? He beat up on Big Spruce again whoopee ! The facts are he never won a G1 race on dirt BEFORE or AFTER the Triple Crown races, he tried but he lost. Yes he was a great horse but better than Citation or The Bid ? Sorry the facts don't support that at all.  Secretariat at two turns never won more than 4 in a row. Compare that to Citation and The Bid and its no contest. Even Sham beat Secretariat and Sham won one G1 stakes race and never won again. And people still bring up Sham like he was a great horse... laughable.  There is nothing great about Sham and he was far from durable.  Even Big Brown made it past Belmont.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 3:46 PM

Jason if you wrote for a Philly paper you better show some love for Steve Carlton !!! Many moons ago I worked for the Philly organization.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 3:54 PM

Jason: Not so quick in dismissing Koufax. Once he learned to pitch instead of throw, he was unreal. His LAST four years in the game, he was 97-27 with 89 complete games. If you want a soft-tossing, cunning pitcher on the mound who could throw forever and field his position, you're right, Maddux fits the bill. If you wanted a guy who was unhittable when healthy, there's Koufax. Best pitcher of your lifetime maybe. I'll take Koufax, Gibson, Carlton, Ryan and Seaver before Maddux.Don't get me wrong, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer just like the five I mentioned.

steve from st. louis 22 Jul 2009 3:56 PM

Dray: Were you a ball girl?

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 3:56 PM

Jason, thought I remembered that article. I knew you wrote for the newspaper.

The only thing about Greg is a friends kid went to the LVBA and Greg didn't show and the kid was pretty mad and upset. Did make it the next year though and the kid was back as a hero worshipper.

Weren't his stats 6'0" 170?

Just kidding on the riled up. (notice I mentioned the dogs and cats not the things that REALLY rile us up) Although, you're easy pickins. Sometimes we're just joshin and you get serious. LOL.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 3:57 PM

Saratoga AJ:

Exactly.

Awesome Again went six for six that year winning the Stephen Foster, Saratoga Breeders Cup, Hawthorne Gold Cup. Whitney and finished up with the Classic.

In the 1998 Breeder’s Cup Classic he defeated:

• A Derby, Preakness and Dubai World Cup winner (Silver Charm)

• A Belmont and Haskell winner (Touch Gold)

• Another Belmont winner and Whitney winner (Victory Gallop)

• A BC Classic winner who was also a two time Jockey Club Gold Cup winner and a Hollywood Gold Cup winner (Skip Away)

• A Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup & Pimlico Special winner (Gentleman)

• A multiple Group One winner in Europe (Swain)

• A Haskell and Travers winner (Coronado’s Quest)

He defeated them all in the same race and everyone of them was in position to win and yet Awesome Again ran them all down.

He wasn’t voted HOY or Champion Older Horse……those honors went to Skip Away.  And yet in the Classic he ran away from Skip Away who had no excuse in what was a CHAMPIONSHIP RACE.

This one race can’t be considered a FLUKE, because he was well bet in the Classic and he danced every dance that year against top competition and won them all.  I wonder if the fact that he was owned by Frank Stronach and/or was a Canadian bred had anything to do with it.

Why doesn't Awesome Again at least get more respect?

That being said, I can’t vote for him, but I will vote for:

• 1…Citation

• 2…Secretariat

• 3…Man ‘o War

• 4…Spectacular Bid

• 5…Kelso DH

• 5…Forego DH

• 7…Affirmed DH

• 7…Seattle Slew DH

• 9…Cigar

• 10…Seabiscuit (lost too many races

• 11…War Admiral

• 12…Tiznow

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 4:11 PM

Steve: The numbers don't lie. Just compare the stats. Dont give me all this soft-tossing, field his position stuff (although, you're right, he did win 18 gold gloves). He was as dominate as they came for a 12-year period. You are remembering his last 5 years when he was on the decline. Go back to 92-96 when he won 4 straight Cy Young's. In 92 and 93 he had back-to-back years of a 1.56 ERA and 1.62 ERAs! That is sick! The league average ERA was over 3.50. Again, look at the career numbers and come back and tell me Koufax compares. Maddux did it for 20+. Koufax did it for 7+.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 4:14 PM

Hey Dray - The infamous Marlbro Cup where Big Red won convincingly over stablemate Riva Ridge is right here watch it and marvel at sheer brilliance on the track.

www.youtube.com/watch

Secretariat also defeated Key to the Mint, Cougar, Onion & Kennedy Road. (So really i think he got the last laugh over Onion - don't cha think?) All of the  horses were accomplished runners who share a part in horse racing history. one of the greatest fields assembled.

you actually have the audacity to bash Secretariat for running in a 'made up race' with real competition. what do you call Big Brown's Monmouth Stakes??

Let me tell you what it was  - a made up race for IEAH to run their horse against subpar competition to add a win to his record after his atrocious Belmont. The difference between the races - nobody will be talking about any of the horses Big Brown ran against while here we are 36 years later still talking about the Marlbro Cup.

Secretariat is not only one of the best - he ran against some of the best. the same can't be said for your beloved bb who would be right where he was at belmont in this fantasy field - being pulled up.

Lady Ruffian 22 Jul 2009 4:15 PM

Daynay:

Many years ago you worked in the Philly organization...What were you a ball or a bat.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 4:16 PM

The prefab race for BB was what again?

THAT explains what happened to BB, he took the scenic route, went 5 hrs out of his way to Belmont on his way to ELMONT and THE Belmont!

AHA! now we know what happened to the LAST colt you proclaimed greatest ever.

What's LAUGHABLE? All of your proclamations of what's great and what isn't. All your puffed up opinions of your ability and your horse rating. Like it's better than that of any other average fan or even the EXPERTS?  THAT is what is laughable.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 4:16 PM

Sorry, Jason, but even though I agree that Maddox was a great pitcher, his only advantage over Koufax was he was more durable and pitched many more years. Koufax has the better lifetime WHIP,SO's and hits allowed per game  by far, and most importantly, very much superior in the post season (.095 ERA!). Also more Cy Young Awards (4-3) despite pitching less that half the number of seasons. It is safe to say that Koufax might have had the best consecutive 5 years (1962-66) of any pitcher in history.

I am not trying to belittle Maddox...certainly one of the top pitchers in history. But if I had to win one game, give me Koufax any day. And keep in mind I was a NY then SF Giant fan back then, and hated the Dodgers.

His performance in game #7 in the '65 World Series against the hard hitting Twins, on two days rest and an elbow too sore to throw his curve ball...a 2-0 three hit shutout on nothing but fast balls was one of the greatest performances I have ever seen.

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 4:22 PM

Jason, ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Classic!

Dray you just got owned. ptwn.

That explains the pink dress comment too.

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 4:23 PM

Jason...I stand corrected...Maddox did in fact win 4 CYA's too.  

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 4:23 PM

Can you take this baseball talk off the board or do it over e-mail?  I'm trying to get under Dray's skin and it is hard to do with all this baseball banter.  You know I'd never go off topic.  By the way, who was a better boxer, Muhammad Ali or Rockey Marciano?

Ted from LA 22 Jul 2009 4:25 PM

Jason,

    How can you possibly say we set you off, we're all so well behaved and level headed, especially me :)

LDP 22 Jul 2009 4:36 PM

AJ: C'mon. If youre going to make an argument have your facts straight. Maddux had 4 Cy's (which you already corrected) and he is 10th all-time in KOs. Koufax isnt even in the top 35. Koufax's WHIP and ERA were slightly lower, but he played in a PITCHERS era. Not this steroid-crazed hitters era Maddux did. Most importantly, and listen closely on this one, Maddux is 8th in all time wins with 355. Koufax? He is 195th on the all-time list with 165. C'mon dude. Maddux has almost 200 more wins!! 200! It's not even a comparison. Let's please end this discussion before I hurt you even more than I have. lol

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 4:37 PM

Hey Ted from LA - Marciano over Ali. You don't argue with perfection or 43 knockouts!

Take nothing away from Ali but if we are playing this fantasy matchup game - my money is on Rocky!

Lady Ruffian 22 Jul 2009 4:38 PM

Laz, BALL or bat? Need you ask?

My bet is 'dingbat' OBVIOUSLY not the former, get my drift?

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 4:46 PM

Damn!!  RuPaul...I mean Draynay is tacking a Brutal Bashing,albeit,deservedly so I guess.

Jason: LOL..Easy there buddy.I don't think I disrespected Maddux at all.I was just stating that Maddux had a very good,steady and elongated career as opposed to Koufax's short,11yr career/6 year reign of dominance in the Majors.Too bad arthritis ended his stint @ the age of 30,or he'd have most of MLB's pitching records in his resume,no doubt. Wikipedia him for conformation,he was a Beast-on-a-leash when he applied himself.Compare both of their 6 best yrs. and Koufax blows him away...BTW: We cheered & respected him greatly when he pitched for our Dodgers,even though he obviously was past his prime.And you're right,he was all class when we had the pleasure of meeting him during fan appreciation day. No harm,no foul right?  

Carlos in Cali 22 Jul 2009 4:50 PM

Jason: Stats, the saying goes, are like hookers; you can make them say whatever you want. There is no player in the Hall of Fame with less appearances in the bigs than Koufax. What does that say? Koufax led the league in ERA five years in a row and we wouldn't be having this argument if Koufax stayed healthy. Walter Alston wore his "bell cow" out as he threw 657 innings his last two years in the game. He averaged 6.7 hits per nine innings, second in the history of the game. Maddux was dominant for 12 years, but Koufax was more dominant for six. I'll take Koufax and we can agree to disagree. In horse racing terms, you love Forego and I'll take Smarty Jones.

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 4:56 PM

Carlos: It's all in good fun, but the problem with your and A.J's arguments is that you keep saying during 'his best 5 year period' and 'if' he didnt get hurt. You cant do that when comparing. Fact is, he did get hurt. Fact is, Maddux didnt. Durability is a major part of greatness. And you cant say one guy (or horse for that matter) is better than another if one did it 3 times as long. In baseball, numbers are everything. Stats don't lie. Koufax was great. Maddux was the best.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 4:58 PM

Hey, I went to a Philly game once when I was really little! Kept thinking Draynay looked familiar!

Once more for old times sake Dray!

HEY TWO Hot Dogs, no mustard!

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 5:00 PM

Sounds good Steve. We'll agree to disagree. But youre dead wrong about stats. They are what makes baseball baseball. Ask any writer that.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 5:00 PM

Jason, please don't disrespect ball girls ;)

Abbie, while Seattle Slew was a prolific and influential sire, he did not sire Tiznow, although he is the maternal grandsire.

The In Reality line needs some love too.

Tiznowbaby 22 Jul 2009 5:02 PM

Jason,

As a person who is a Koufax fan and having seen him pitch numerous times, he was very special and he retired at 30!!!!  He didn't pitch as long as Maddux.  He had to be shot up with Cortizone because his arthritis was so bad in his elbow but still was an amazing, gifted pitcher.  Had his career gone another 10 years there is not telling what he would have achieved.

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:03 PM

Hey Dray: maybe if you paid attention to Grade 2 or 3 races in Canada, you would have picked the Kentucky Derby winner this year.

mz 22 Jul 2009 5:07 PM

Monica: As my old math teacher used to say to me, 'if IF was a horse, we could all take a ride.' Translation: Cant deal in 'what ifs' when youre comparing athletes.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 5:11 PM

Jason,

I had no idea you were so into baseball!  Do you sit and read all the stats in the sports section everyday?  Wow!  All my brothers are like that.  I grew up around baseball and hav seen hundreds of games, both professional and organized youth and high school baseball.  After I was out of my teens I rather lost interest because there weren't any players who interested me but I was lucky to have seen Willie Mays, Johnny Roseboro, Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale.  It was wonderful then and I remember how Koufax and Drysdale held out signing to get 100K!!!!  Peanuts compared to today's salaries.  That's when players loved the game.

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:12 PM

Face it guys. That ATL team had a pretty amazing line-up for a good number of years. Stats in Baseball are cold hard facts.

Sort of like world record times in track or horse racing. Irrefutable, black and white.

Not a 'won from the _____ hole for the first time ever, was only undefeated to win, only 2 year old champion etc. Those are nebulous 'records' only trotted out to add to the mystique.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 5:13 PM

mz,

fabulous post to Dray at 5:07PM!

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:14 PM

LOL Jason!  I'll agree to that but Sandy was incredible no matter what.

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:15 PM

Jason

I can take the pain...but I've been around longer than you and I will still take Koufax (and Marichal and Gibson from that era) over Maddox in a must win game.

Koufax retired with a bad arm at 30...in his prime. That's what happens when you throw as much as 335 innings a year. Maddox pitched in a time when pitchers are prima donas...7 innings every fifth day. Hell, Sandy had 54 complete games...54!!! in 1965 and 66 alone!  

Maddox was not as dominant in the post season when it mattered. But I would rank Maddox only behind Pedro in the last 2 decades. That's my opinion.

You know, it's just as hard to compare baseball players from different eras as it is horses! :)

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 5:15 PM

Jason,

   I figured it out, Here is Draynay when he worked for the Phillies...

cache.daylife.com/.../340x.jpg

Greg J. 22 Jul 2009 5:15 PM

I really don't understand why Draynay is always trying to make Secretariat look like an average horse.  I would really like to know why.  What did Secrerariat ever do to him?

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:19 PM

Good points A.J. Fair enough. Maddux had 11 wins in postseason (4th all time) but had a losing record. In his defense, his ERA was 3.50 in the postseason - he received terrible run support. Trust me, I watched every one of those games as a big ATL fan. Nonetheless, Koufax was a better postseason pitcher, that is a fact.

One last thing: Please spell Maddux's name right :) he deserves that.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 5:20 PM

Where's Gun Bow?  He should get in on this baseball thing.  

Jason,

Horse racing, music and baseball.

This gets more interesting everday!

I love it and by the way, glad to see you are a baseball fan!

MonicaV 22 Jul 2009 5:21 PM

Hey Jason, any relation to Ron, one of Fantasy Baseball's gurus?

p.s.

I just love a blog that makes some people as irrelevant as they should be.

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 5:32 PM

Dammit AJ,you beat me to it,regarding: innings pitched per year,complete games and how "coddled" modern-era pitchers are. Fernando Valenzuela was the last of the "work-horses",if not for the over-load of pitching(and partying/womanizing,lol) he did early in his career,who knows?...

Hey,I'm sure glad I brought my Lap Tap to Del Mar,it's crazy and packed...Race#2 box the 1,4,6 exotics.

Carlos in Cali 22 Jul 2009 5:36 PM

    Wow!, What an incredible field, If everything is even, All in top form, and at Belmont?, This is a no brainer as far as who would win, To get the best ROI, I would have to go with:

1.Secretariat

2.Seattle Slew

3.Citation

4.Spectacular Bid

    Greg Maddux, Hands Down, The guy was a pure pitcher, His stuff was nasty...

Draynay,

     You just love digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, Don't You?  You become more laughable each time you belittle Big Red, and then you try to explain your Belmont Logic?, Bottom Line, You Lost, Which I don't really think surprised anyone except maybe yourself...

Greg J. 22 Jul 2009 5:44 PM

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but how can you call the Coaching Club American Oaks a Gr.1 race when it doesn't have a single Gr.1 horse in it?!

ceil 22 Jul 2009 5:57 PM

Nice!!  $25 exacta is OK by me(3-1 over 2-1) should pay for our trip,munchies & drinks many times over!!  Think we'll be back this Aug.1st for the Micro-brew Festival/Concerts.

Race#3--box the 5,6,10

Carlos in Cali 22 Jul 2009 6:03 PM

Tim G....

Stick to being a fan not a critic and leave the rest to the experts.

Have a nice day! ;-)

eliz 22 Jul 2009 6:21 PM

Sandy Koufax...lol... give me a break Steve Carlton puts him to shame.  Steve pitched AND he hit !  That's real baseball.  I was at a game when he hit two home runs did Koufax ever hit 2 home runs in a game ?

MonicaV I have nothing against Secretariat but people need to look at his entire season. He had no problem whipping Angle Light in early races he shows up at the G1 Wood and gets beat by Angle Light?

After the Triple Crown races he shows up at the G1 Woodward and gets whipped by Prove Out ? The fact is the only G1 races he won were the Triple Crown races before and after he lost.  Do I have to mention him losing to Onion? Onion are you serious ? And MonicaV what is up with Sham ? The horse won one major race and NEVER won again yet he is talked about like he was a great horse.  Give me a break the whole Sham love affair is just that... a SHAM !

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 6:38 PM

Jason.  Do you like basketball?  Michael Jordan?  I didn't know you were so into sports.  I am too.  

And WHY IZ Seattle Slew at 15/1?  :)

StardustyRose 22 Jul 2009 6:52 PM

Jason,

I always sucked at spelling...and must of had Gary on my mind! lol

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 6:54 PM

Tiznow is a grandson of my beloved Seattle Song on his dams side.  Cash Asmussen won the Washington International on Seattle Song.  Seattle Slew is not the sire of Cigar, OffleeWild or Stormy Atlantic, or Pulpit or Tapit or or or ...either but HE is in their pedigrees!  You did not read my blog properly Tiznowbaby!!!!!!!

Thanks Stardusty Rose!

Seattle Slew forever!

C'mon all you Seattle Slew fans come out of the woodwork please and support HIM!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

Abbie Knowles 22 Jul 2009 7:11 PM

Jason:

Wasn't there a strike zone called the Maddox Strike Zone which extended out about five inches on each side of the plate?  I remember an ump saying once, I don't remember his name, that this is his strike zone and if he hits the glove there I call it a strike everytime.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 7:15 PM

I don't know Monica but I've been trying to figure that one out myself.  Maybe when Draynay was younger Secretariat stepped on his head or something.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 7:16 PM

Jason, BTW, wouldn't ya know it...I'm a Met fan. That's what happened to most NY/SF Giant fans.

So you know I saw all I wanted to see of Mr. MaddUx.

My season is just about over already. Tough to win with 11 guys on the DL, including 3 of your best 4 position players, two starting pitchers, and your main set up man. Add the half dozen+ backups that hit the DL too...had to bring up a 20 year old then he got hurt! Never seen anything like it.

But I do like the trade we made with you guys...more up side with a 25 yr old Jeff F. than a 30 yr Church...who still is a fine player too. Maybe the change in scenery will benefit both.  

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 7:17 PM

Lazmannick-

Thanks for the Candy Ride info.  Sorry, just got off work and looked at this now.  Too bad we couldn't actually watch this race, it would so exciting with all these horses.

Cheers,

Heather

HLLIKINS 22 Jul 2009 7:31 PM

A.J.: Yes, Gary Maddox, centerfielder for the Phils. First autograph I ever got. Nice man, and caught final out of 1980 World Series.

And BTW, the Mets stink, injuries arent the biggest problem with them. That team has the wrong chemistry and it's so obvious. The last two September chokes should have clued them in.

Lazmannick: lol....yeah, all those Phillies/Mets/Pirates/Giants fans complained about the strike zone for Maddux and Glavine bc they couldnt hit them! Wah...wah...wah

Rose: I used to be a huge basketball fan. But the NBA is about as bad a product as you can get now. I wont watch. I covered college hoops for 6 years. Still enjoy that.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 7:44 PM

nay light: You're the only one in the world who would take Carlton over Koufax. Enough wasting our time. And when and what did you do for the Phillies? I worked for the Sun Times back in the day and had many press box buffets at Veterans' Stadium and dinners at Bookbinder's (on expense account) with John Vukovich, who was a Phillies coach and a friend of mine. Your dad must have gotten  you the job 'cause you sure don't make friends easily.

steve from st louis 22 Jul 2009 7:53 PM

Monica V, thanks for the right 31 length figure. Clearly, I'm an idiot. It only makes our case for Secretariat stronger. I mean 31 lengths in the Belmont. Not even Man O'War or Citation could have done that in my opinion. They would have been close but not cigar, no pun intended.

Thanks Lobieb, it's good to know I am not totally off base on my picks being one of the newbies.

Mike S. I am not laughing at Secretariat's losses believe me. I LOVED Secretariat. I do think the name Onion is a hoot. I do think Draynay trying to make the case that Secretariat shoulddn't be one or two in this contest is a riot. But I love the fact that he is willing to stand up against the wind and be counted and make his case. That takes guts and passion, whether you agree or not.

Jason, I live in Georgia and we stood in line with my two nephews to have Greg Maddux sign their baseballs. A hunk of change later we got his autograph x2. I saw him pitch some amazing games. During the season he was unparallled. Post-season was another story. He was just not the same pitcher. Then we had to rely on Tom Glavine and John Smoltz. I always felt Tom Glavine was underappreciated. But Maddux was in a class by himself during the season.

As for Sportsperson of the 20th Century, it was Secretariat and Man O' War at number 1 and 2 (not sure which postion for which one though). Forget, Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth LOL.

O.k. I am from Atlanta and I paid Greg Maddux a bucket of money to sign 2 baseballs for my 2 nephews and stood in line forever too.

Paula Higgins 22 Jul 2009 8:02 PM

ooooh eliz, get upset about the  comment on another blog? Because you as an 'insider' spelled 2 of the 3 most well known trainers names WRONG?

Not a critic, a Dr. Not just a fan, a horse OWNER, former race tracker in my youth.

Seen almost all the famous ones in person, the really old ones? My Dad or grandad saw IN PERSON.

Know the trainers you spoke of, personally and have been in racing longer than I'd care to say. Have owned a few 100 or more horses so do have a certain amount of expertise.

Apropos your comment was right there with another who has 'issues'.

LOL steve.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 8:07 PM

Jason, assume you wrote about the NCAA BB before it was a tryout for the NBA?

I love watching the little guy schools who haven't got a 'future pro' on the team. Some day I hope one of those little guys jumps up and wins the whole shootin match.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 8:10 PM

Yes, Jason, they blew it in '07....but last year losing their closer in July sealed their fate. They lost a ton of games in the 8-9th inning...surely they would have not with Wagner pitching.

And they have won 35 more games than the Tomahawk Choppers since 2006, so if they stink, does that mean the Braves stink worse? :)

Now before you  start ranting, I will give you credit were credit is due...they had a good run on Division Titles. But answer me this...which team was in the World Series last? And in the playoffs last?  LOL

That's why I love the horses so much..the Mets and Jets drive me to drink and keep me up at nights...but all I lose is my $$ bets when it comes to the ponies! :)

Now back to the important stuff...what do you think of RA entering the Woodward if she wins Sunday? Has a 3 yr. old filly ever won that race? In fact, how many, if any, 3 yr old fillies have beaten older handicap males in any major stakes race? Got to get the record books out.

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 8:14 PM

HLLIKINS:

Got your post.

You can actually see Candy Ride's 2003 Pacific Classic.....type in youtube candyride(2 words).  When it comes up go to:  YouTube - Candy Ride (ARG) Pacific Classic 2003

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 8:29 PM

HLLIKINS:

I was thinking that you meant watch the Pacific Classic.

I know what you mean, a race with all these champions listed above would be awesome and I'm willing to be that if they somehow raced 5 different times, we might get 5 different winners.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 8:31 PM

1980 I was at Veterans field on the really really hot turf in full costume as Royce Rawls one of the Tug McGraw Scroogie Characters.  It gave me a chance to hang out with some of baseballs greatest players. Pete Rose, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, and Larry Bowa.  I also got a chance to play ball boy with Chocolate Thunder practicing his Free Throws at The Spectrum. As a matter of fact I was at the game when Chocolate Thunder broke his second backboard ! If you like I have some great stories from the Flyers games in the 1970's.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 8:46 PM

Man O War won a race by 100 lengths.

I guess that makes him 3 times better than Secretariat.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 8:48 PM

Oh A.J., you can do better than that. All you New Yawkers are such spindoctors. More wins since 2006? lol. The Braves won 14 division titles in a row, a pro sports record! Arent they entitled to a couple off years? Fact is, Mets have been a huge disappointment for the last 20 years. Braves have more wins than any baseball team over the last 20 years - and they have a WS title in the last 15 years. Should have had 1 or 2 more, but it hurts too much to go there :)

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 8:49 PM

Question: Is this fantasy fast forward to this years BC? If so, who can run on poly? Not only that, who can beat a large field with real competition. Over half of these horses stole races because no one wanted to waste money and time, nor had the guts to beat em. I say the fields wide open. Honestly, I can't pick! I would just have to pick a couple long shots, crack a couple cheap beers and toast to may the best horse with a smart jockey win!

shesfast 22 Jul 2009 8:53 PM

Paula, not an idiot, caught up too much, overexcited about the subject? Never an idiot.

Although I do question your support of a certain person who is most objectionable. Know he said you 'understood' him, but he'll turn on you, be sure of that.

Maybe it's the Nightingale effect?

Dad the Dr says nurses are indispensable (strange guy from most Docs heh?).

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 8:58 PM

I think I'll sit this race out and go for a fried chicken sandwich at the Hattie's stand.

Well maybe a token throwaway bet on my way to the escalator. Yeah, why not?

Alex 22 Jul 2009 8:59 PM

Jason: does 1992 still hurt?  It was good for us.  1993 was good too. Since then, not so good.

However, I gotta say that at least I think we are now world champions at something in another sport: 42 years and counting since out last Stanley Cup.  Go Leafs!!!

mz 22 Jul 2009 9:08 PM

What about the Rodney Dangerfield of the Classic (and horseracing in general)?  If Skip Away runs a race like he did in 1997, I'd put him in contention.

Hildegard 22 Jul 2009 9:12 PM

Draynay:

Tell us some of your Flyers' stories.  I'm a Leaf fan myself...and before you start making cracks about the Leafs not having won the cup since '68, the Flyers aren't doing much better.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 9:20 PM

lol mz: Nah, '92 doesnt hurt nearly as much as '91 or '96. They were torture. Lonnie Smith tripping around third still haunts me to this day.

The rest of you non-baseball fans, don't worry, we'll get back to horse racing one one these days.

BTW, what did everyone think of Mosses comments, or lackthereof, today?

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 9:25 PM

Draynay:

I remember watching Flyers' games on the tube back in the seventies.  Die-hard Leaf fans hated Bobby Clark, Reggie Leach, the Watson Brothers, Mad Dog Kelly, etc., with a passion.

There used to be this obnoxious guy sitting in the stands near ice level.  He had short hair and a thick mustache.  He was always sticking a sign up and it got to the point that we called him the Sign Man.  He was around for years, an annoying little twerp who had a way of getting under your skin.....

Please don't tell me you were the Sign Man.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jul 2009 9:37 PM

Used to be a huge Flyers fan in the 90s, but something left me after the Lindros debacle in early 2000. I loved the big guy but he didnt get any help. His parents were a different story. They did their best to ruin #88. Bobby Clark and Ed Snider became too arrogant and they lost me. Now, living in KY, I dont think they know what hockey is down here. So I've lost interest. NFL season cant get here soon enough for me.

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 9:43 PM

Hildegard---Yes, especially since this fantasy Classic is held at Belmont, where Skip Away ran the JCGC in 1:58.8; only a fraction off the track record for the distance of 1 1/4mi.

MonicaV---The answer to the 'why' part of your question today at 5:19 P.M. shouldn't be too hard to figure out with the help of a DSM-IV and a little Freudian thinking.

Karen in Texas 22 Jul 2009 9:54 PM

LAZMANNICK that fan lol... that you are talking about was one of my teachers at John F. Kennedy High School.  I can't remember his name right now to save my life but I can go on to my facebook account and ask a few of my High School buddies and they will remember. By the way his hair was many things but short wasn't one of them.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 10:00 PM

Hey Lazmannick: think we can get Mine That Bird on skates?  Might help our team, especially if we put him in goal.

mz 22 Jul 2009 10:05 PM

Jason, I was going to comment on that but got sidetracked with the baseball and reading all the interesting stuff.

Did you get to speak with him personally? If so, were you able to tell anything by his intonation or inflection?  

Your article? Seemed like he left the door open but he's said before he's not letting JJ dictate what he should do next.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 10:05 PM

Draynay is making some good points about Secretariat, but he is twisting the facts, as is typical of him. I would like to say that although it was a nice field, the 1973 Marlboro Cup was far from the greatest field ever assembled like some are saying. Riva Ridge was a Hall of Fame horse, but he was only 17 for 30, had only barely won an allowance in his most recent start, was last in his race two after the Marlboro(he won the Stuyvesant Handicap, a Grade 2, directly after the Marlboro),and had only one Grade 1 win all year. As Riva is generally considered the second best horse in that race, and there have been races that had at least two horses better than him in history, it stands to reason that the 1973 Marlboro Cup could not be the greatest field ever. If times are to be considered to the exclusion of win-loss record and longevity, then Swaps is just as good, if not better, than Secretariat. Swaps had more world records ,5, than any other horse. My pick in the fantasy Classic is Citation, by the way, with Man O' War second and Spectacular Bid third.

Citation 22 Jul 2009 10:06 PM

Lol... well I knew I would find out quickly.  The "sign guy" was Mr. Leonetti. I have a few friends that still live in Willingboro.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 10:15 PM

Alex, early stake out at the Spa or getting hyped for the open house on Sunday?

Have some chicken for me, yummy yummy, can't wait.

Lots of folks have already settled in. Some works of interest to me today.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 10:16 PM

Paula, 3 yr. old Man O'War beat the 4 yr. old Sir Barton, the first Triple Crown winner, by over 100 lengths in a match race.

Karen in Indiana 22 Jul 2009 10:18 PM

Shawn P, I think I love your father. That's very kind of him.  M.D.'s are heroes in my eyes for many reasons, and especially in these times. I have been lucky in my career in that I have worked with some very fine doctors.

Draynay, is o.k. He is not illogical. I can follow his reasoning and often he makes a compelling case. Actually, alot of people make compelling cases on this board for their particular horse(s). So I am like "Who do I agree with?" You are all light years ahead of me in horse knowledge.

Jason, I love it that you are a Brave's fan. Bobby Cox is one of my sports heroes. A great manager. John Smoltz too.

Jason, what Moss's comment?????

Paula Higgins 22 Jul 2009 10:20 PM

Another break down on synthetic at DM?

I ALMOST started to say DN was a Mascot, so funny. Hey, saw a guy in a costume in front of a store the other day. maybe they have an opening. With your experience you're a shooin.  

Jason, know what hockey is. Doesn't mean it can replace king racing or college basketball!

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 10:24 PM

And I don't want to hear any comments from anyone on this blog about whether Rachal Alexandra would have a harder slap shot than Ruffian!

mz 22 Jul 2009 10:29 PM

Jason...

"And they have a WS title in the last 15 years. Should have had 1 or 2 more, but it hurts too much to go there"

Yes, and I bet it never hurt more than in 1996. Drop 4 in a row after winning the first two in NY?

I see where one of the  stars of that Series...Leyritz...is in a world of trouble right now.

Saratoga AJ 22 Jul 2009 10:29 PM

OK, Tim I'll leave you alone, LOL...Thanks for the laugh, you are way too easy...gotcha LOL!

However you do have some valid points in some of your posts...

Take care hon and have a nice day!

eliz 22 Jul 2009 10:31 PM

Jason I am a big Bejarano fan and I understand he has been hurt.  Can we set up a get well blog for him so we can all send him a message wishing him a speedy recovery.  I am sure many here would like to wish him a speedy recovery.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 10:41 PM

Tim: Yeah, I spoke with Moss at length today. I'll probably blog about it on Friday. He's a tough nut to crack; real nice guy though.

A.J: I ws a senior in collge in '96 and watched that series with all guys who were Yankees fans. Seriously, was one of the most painful weeks of my life. I was thrown out of bars twice in 4 days. Mark Wohlers. If I saw that guy now...lol

jshandler 22 Jul 2009 10:46 PM

Nay lite: Hillarious! You were a mascot? THAT'S being in the Phillies' organization? You were a clown then and little has changed. And a ball boy for the 76ers? Jeez, why don't you write a tell-all about all the sweat you mopped up? On another site.

steve from St louis 22 Jul 2009 10:51 PM

Saratoga A.J., three-year-old fillies Twilight Tear and Beldame are the ones the come immediately to mind as far as beating older males in a major race.

It doesn't happen often, and if she goes and wins, I will feel privileged to have seen it.

Tiznowbaby 22 Jul 2009 10:52 PM

Thanks Paula! We aren't all jerks, all the time anyway.

I've admired your posting for quite some time. You've really come a long way and are really up on things now. The Moss comment, an article on the front page by none other than Jason.

Like Shawnie says though, we need to work on that DN appreciation, worrisome.

eliz, nobody but my better half has called me hon since my granny passed. LOL. I'm definitely not easy, or cheap for that matter, :)

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 10:55 PM

Yes, can certainly tell Jerry is a successful businessman in a cutthroat industry. Look forward to the blog.

The breakdown at Del Mar was horrific and I guess Rafael has multiple facial fractures.

On the heels of the breakdown Sunday and the debacle that followed for that poor mare? Just makes me like those ultra-safe synthetics even less.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 11:06 PM

Yes Why IZ Seattle Slew 15/1?  

What an insult!

I love all horses it is just that of this field I love The Mighty Seattle Slew marginally the best from Cigar and Tiznow!

Draynay is a... no i won't go there!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

Abbie Knowles 22 Jul 2009 11:09 PM

I do recall a big invitational race at Arlington Park (won by Secretariat) where the big red horse's connections would not run if Linda's Chief were invited.  The same deal for the Marlboro Cup.  One wonders why....

democraticjack 22 Jul 2009 11:15 PM

Nay lite: Hillarious! You were a mascot? THAT'S being in the Phillies' organization? You were a clown then and little has changed. And a ball boy for the 76ers? Jeez, why don't you write a tell-all about all the sweat you mopped up? On another site.

Gee... you got me I should be ashamed that when I was a teenager I got to hang out with some of the greatest athletes of our time.  What teenager would want to hang around Bobby Clarke, Dr. J, Chocolate Thunder, Maurice Cheeks, Mike Schmidt, Larry Bowa, Steve Carlton, The Bull, and Pete Rose. Gosh now that you bring it up I had it really bad huh... By the way my track coach was Carl Lewis' dad and got a chance to speak to Carl many times (you know the track legend that won all those gold medals) I guess I should feel bad about that too.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 11:23 PM

Tim G, more than happy to say it. I just pray to God that people will still want to take on the years of learning, medical school costs, stress and strain as medicine changes. But that's for another blog I am afraid.

Karen in Indiana, OH MY WORD!!!!!!!!!!!! 100 lengths. Good grief. Now I am wondering if I should go back and vote again??? You know, this is a tough one. Man O' War is my favorite horse of all time, but Secretariat is right up there too. My problem is I love them all. Supposedly, Man O'War was a pistol too. Had to be held back. Maybe he could have beaten Secretariat in the right circumstances. But the Belmont is longer and I have to go with my gut that Secretariat would pull it off because of his big heart = huge stamina for long races.

Paula Higgins 22 Jul 2009 11:36 PM

Hmmm, who knows about Linda's Chief. Red blew him away in the Sanford when LC was the favorite.

www.youtube.com/watch.

Beat LC in the Champagne (which by the way Red won, then was DQ'd on a, to me, ??? call by the stewards). Trying to recall any issues.

Sham also beat LC when LC was the favorite in the SA Derby.

Hmmm, curious. Doubt they feared him, maybe a horse that caused bumping issues or something? Now I'm curious.

Tim G 22 Jul 2009 11:42 PM

mz... not cool.  Carl Lewis was the greatest track athlete ever and a very nice guy. To suggest one of the most tested athletes in the modern era ever took a drug is just plain wrong. If you knew Carl and his Dad you would never make such a senseless comment.

Draynay 22 Jul 2009 11:58 PM

At JFK?

Shawn P 22 Jul 2009 11:59 PM

MZ:

We could use the Bird's speed.  I wonder how hard he can shoot?  I know he could stickhandle and he could go through the holes like a rocket on ice.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 12:40 AM

You can criticize it all you want, and you can be unimpressed, and you can be jaded and bitter, but the field for the Marlboro Cup in 1973 was comprised of no less than FIVE CHAMPIONS, all of which were fantastic and/or great horses: SECRETARIAT, RIVA RIDGE, COUGAR II, KENNEDY ROAD and KEY TO THE MINT. Two other stakes winners were in the field as well: ONION and ANNIHILATE 'EM. No other race that I can recall has had 5 champions. Put them down all you want, those five horses were spectacular, and I think true racing fans recognize and appreciate them.

Why not find another hobby? Bashing SECRETARIAT is way beyond "old," and there's actually nothing to bash.

Mike S 23 Jul 2009 12:55 AM

Secretariat, artificial surfaces?...Food for thought.

eliz 23 Jul 2009 12:56 AM

I think Linda's Chief was one of the early rising stars of that crop.  Not sure what happened to the horse.

It was not Sir Barton that MoW beat by 100 lengths.

Kat 23 Jul 2009 2:06 AM

Karen in Indy (and Paula)...I am reading this late and so others will have probably already said this but MOW beat Sir Barton by 7 lengths in their match race. The race he won by 100 was the 1 5/8 mile Lawrence Realization over a horse called Hoodwink and it could have been more than 100 lengths, I have read that they were basically guessing how far ahead he was and 100 is a nice round number.

Jason...I asked my friend about her friend in Pearl Jam, he was the bassist not one of the drummers. They went to college together and he was in a different band (something with Ds, I already forgot, lol). And I think Dray has a good idea (!!!) about sending good wishes to Raphael Bejarano. I met him last year at Del Mar and just saw him at Hollywood Park and he smiled for photos in the post parade. He seems like a really nice man and I hope he has a speedy recovery. And my condolences to Mi Rey's connections.

barb 23 Jul 2009 2:34 AM

Abbie Knowles...

Maybe Jason put the numbers backward.  It should be 1/15  THAT is more like the one and only Slew.  I cannot even believe that people question that horse.  He did it all.  He was a champion on and off the track and a really neat horse that gave us some really good years.  Love my Slew.  :)

Jason.... NFL aye?  Well I am getting ready for that too. Oh yeah maybe the Draynay ticker should go back up aye?  Just a thought.  LOL

StardustyRose 23 Jul 2009 3:13 AM

Barb: The bassist for PJ is Jeff Ament. If your friend dated him, much respect to her. Very cool.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 8:38 AM

I think it's way beyond hilarious to think of draynay with an oversized paper mache head. I'm quite sure none of the athletes he "hung around" with took him too seriously. They probably told their kids to stay far far away from him too. I also think it's hilarious that draynay has moved on from those days of wearing a clown suit to wearing a pink dress. Why else would he have one in his closet ready to wear?

In the Koufax vs Maddux debate someone mentioned that Maddux played in the steriod era for hitters. Let's not forget the steriod abuse isn't limited to only the hitters it includes pitchers as well. For what it's woth I'd take Bob Gibson over either Koufax or Maddux.

schabelli 23 Jul 2009 8:40 AM

Just to offer a bit more perspective from someone who hasn't had access per say to major league sports teams very long.  

My home state is Wyoming and even though I now live in the Philly area I'm still not used to actually having major league sports teams this close to me.  One of my grandfathers is a huge Reds fan, living in Cincinnati his whole life. He'd take me and my sister and my cousins to a Red's game every family reunion.  Now I know that the Red's aren't that good of a team, but I don't know that much about baseball.  My nearest MLB team back in WY was the Colorado Rockies (not a fan), and my nearest NFL team was the Broncos (also not a fan.)  You add in that my nearest hockey team was the Avalanche and nearest basketball team the Denver Nuggets and I have been to none of their games.  

I find it neat that there are major league teams now for my area, instead of teams that are for an area 6-7 hours of driving time away.

Lazmannick--I agree with the five different winners, would be neat to see the race set up perfectly for everyone and see who has the most left at the end past the quarter pole.  

Hope everyone is having a good week.

Cheers,

Heather

HLLIKINS 23 Jul 2009 8:43 AM

Dray, I'm glad you lived such a priviledged childhood, but respecting others' opinions was obviously no part of your upbringing. I'm guessing you're an only child.

steve from st louis 23 Jul 2009 8:44 AM

Schiabelli: Are u suggesting Maddux may have taken steroids? lol. Yeah, he really looked imposing out there, huh?

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 8:58 AM

Jason:

I propose a new race.....The DRAYNAY Inv. Hdc.

It would list all of Dray's stars, their odds and of course their accomplishments.

Even though it would be an Invitational we should still Grade it....

How about a Triple Grade-1.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 9:04 AM

barb, you are right - I got my races mixed up.

Karen in Indy 23 Jul 2009 9:22 AM

Privileged childhood ? Do you know anything about Willingboro NJ? When I was at Veterans Stadium or the Specturm I was WORKING !

Now I would like to put the whole Secretariat thing to rest. Everyone agrees that he was a great horse but believe it or not everyone does NOT believe he was the best ever.  The facts and the stats simply do not back that up. Just the fact that he NEVER ran past 3 takes him off the top 5 list and places him 6th all time.

After Belmont he lost on dirt to average horse at just 119 lbs. and while everyone wants to brag about his last two turf wins you must remember Secretariat was getting a huge weight allowance 5 lbs on Big Spruce in the Man O War and 9 lbs. on Big Spruce in the Canada.  Big Spruce raced 40 times winning 9 times beating Forego twice as a 5 year old in 1974.  Before that he had only won some minor stakes when Secretariat faced him.  And because of that Secretariat the Triple Crown winner got a weight break of 5 and 9 lbs ? Give me a break look at the facts and be honest.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 9:24 AM

Since we're putting a wrap on the whole Secretariat debate, I'll weigh in.

I agree with Draynay that he cannot be considered the best ever bc he never ran past 3. Ive used the analogy before with baseball. I cannot put an athlete at the top when others have accomplished more for a longer period of time. It just goes against everything I was taught. Part of greateness is longevity. Would Secretariat have been a superior older horse? Im sure. But the fact is he was retired at age 3. No way you can put his resume next to those like Citation, who were also Triple Crown winners but accomplished more.

You want to call Secretariat the greatest 3YO ever? I have no problem with that. Most accomplished horse? Not even close.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 9:33 AM

Karen in Indiana,

   Man o War beat Sir Barton by 7 lengths. He beat Hoodwinked by 100 in race that was to be just a walkover, but Jeffors I think that was the owners name i'll be corrected if i'm wrong entered him so Man o War would have someone to run against. The reason why is because that same year i think is when Purchase a poppuar horse was pretty much made fun of when he had to do a walkover. Jeffors said she'd enter if Hoodwinked wouldn't be beaten too badly. Well the jock on Man o War had him under a choke hold the whole way and he still beat him by 100.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 9:40 AM

Paula,

    Man o War also won his Belmont by 20 lengths, then at 1 3/8 and set an American record of 2.14.2 for the distance. Divide that time by 11 and that means he ran an average of 12.2 seconds per furlong.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 9:47 AM

Ok i did get the name wrong, it was Jeffords, Sarah Jeffords.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 9:49 AM

Jason you may have to save this blog and do it again after Rachel romps in the Haskell and Travers.  The next two races should prove we are seeing a Superhorse for the ages !  Go Rachel !

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 10:33 AM

Steve Carlton

My last memories of him were when he was in a Twins uniform. He was truly pathetic then. What a shame he tainted a great career by holding on way too long. Reminds me of Randy Johnson who needs to retire for good. Maybe his injury will wake him up.  

I agree with you Jason that Sandy Koufax and Secratariat are two of the best ever in their respective sports but can't be ranked in the top 5 because their accomplishments were over too short of a time. On their best day it might be another argument but in terms of career accomplishments both fall short.  

slyder 23 Jul 2009 10:59 AM

Draynay, didn't get an answer from you on JFK, and Mr. Lewis being your coach.

So Jason, do you know Dray from Philly?

Interesting, he's calling a 'wrap' on the subject?  Yet HE is the one who brings it up blog after blog?

Interesting.

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 10:59 AM

Jason,

If he did I wonder what Maddux would have looked like without the steroids?

schabelli 23 Jul 2009 11:00 AM

Oh, by the way.

Are you discounting the Blood-Horse and the panel of experts they put together and who named Secretariat #2 all time? Hmmmm

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 11:02 AM

Tim G.,

    First, Thanks for the info regarding "Bone Bruises" over on Nicanor's Blog.  Second, Question for you, I didn't want to post this over there, But if the injury includes a slight ligament/tendon issue, First, Is that common with these type of injuries, Second, What is the prognosis for a full recovery?, I know it is hard to answer without specifics, but that is the best that I can do, Thanks for your input...

Greg J. 23 Jul 2009 11:07 AM

Shawn: Dray and I have never met.

Schabelli: lol about Maddux.

Dray: Did you ask Rachel out on a date yet? You are infatuated with her. Is it her legs?

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 11:29 AM

Dray,

    Your comment, "Now I would like to put the whole Secretariat thing to rest", Are you kidding me?, See how long you last on this latest promise, My guess is as long as you did on your "promise" to not call "Mine that Bird" a "Fluke", Give me a break...

Greg J. 23 Jul 2009 11:31 AM

Shawn P. yes Mr. Lewis was our indoor Track coach my Senior year at JFK in 1982 the year we also won States.  I threw Javelin and Shot. Won both events every meet but 1. Indoor Track I ran the 400 hurdles because no one else would do it and the 400 and shot.

Shawn P. when I was in Philly Jason was busy being potty trained. And yes the Secretariat debate is over until someone on this blog explains how Secretariat at 2 and 3 tops Citation at 2 and 3.  Until someone, anyone does that... the debate is over.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 11:43 AM

People: He does have a point. How can Secretariat's 2 and 3 YO seasons top Citation's?

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 11:55 AM

Kelso, people. A versatile horse who could handle a busy schedule and a variety of distances. One classy horse.

MtBFan (STILL) 23 Jul 2009 11:56 AM

Jason..... I think it is her makeup that Dray loves.  Look at the way she wears her makeup.  Very unusual for a horse don't ya think?  OK Jason on to the buiseness of being serious.  Who are the best teams in the MLB right now?  If you know a lot about baseball, that would really help me out.  :)

StardustyRose 23 Jul 2009 11:59 AM

My love affair with Rachel has been hot and heavy since March as you know.  My question to you is how is your love affair with Friesan Fire going ?  

Quick story about Pete Rose. I was standing next to Pete and he was getting ready to go into the batting cage.  There were a couple reporters around asking him questions and one said to Pete, "I remember taking my mother to see you play a double header in Cincinnati back 10 years ago when you slapped a single to left and stretched out to a double." Pete looked up and said, "It was against the Pirates I hit another double my next time up and went 4 for 5 that game in the second game I hurt my thumb sliding and went 1 for 4 with a walk." The reporter and I just stood there and looked at each other realizing the man had a photographic memory.  To this day you can bring up a date and time you saw him play 30 years ago and he will tell you what he did that game who was pitching and what the weather was like. Simply amazing.  Pete Rose not being in the hall for betting on baseball is laughable at best.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 12:07 PM

For the record I have been taking abuse since 1969 and Joe Kapp failing to deliver.  BUT this is the year of the Vikings and Brett Farve.

Go Vikings !

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 12:14 PM

I sat down at the carnival last week to play the squirt gun/water game. How I managed the hubby to cough up a couple of dollars to play the game is beyond me. Maybe some of you have played the same game. You aim the water from the squirt gun at a hole and "race" your horse to the finish line to see who wins the prize. I had to fight off draynay for my horse. I chose Citation. He ended up with some other nag. To make a longer story short Citation got his hiny whipped and I finished dead last. So much for the best ever.

Gooday everyone!!

Peace...out

draynays better half 23 Jul 2009 12:20 PM

Why must men always turn things into something about a womens body. Why can't you guys go for personality or brains. Also, just me but i would like it if a guy said something about my eyes, not so much my butt, legs or anything under the neck.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 12:50 PM

Dray,

    I ran track this year. My coach stunk at putting me in the right events. I hate to sprint and she kept me in the 100m and 200m. I like more of 400 and up. When she finally did put me in the 400m i actually won and she looked completely shocked. I don't even look like a sprinter i'm 5 foot 5 and am 107lbs. My sister is the sprinter and can do 400 and down, but likes the 200 best. In indoor track the coach kept putting her in the 500 until the last couple of meets. I wish we actually had a coach that had done something with track before, this coach had no history with it at all. That is why i hate the policy at our school that give teachers first dibs on coaching. That is the dumbest rule ever made.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 12:55 PM

Rose: The NL will come down to the Phillies and Dodgers again. I think L.A. takes it this year. They have the best lineup in baseball and will likley get a starting pitcher at the trade deadline. Looks like the Red Sox in the A.L. Manny vs. the Sox in the World Series? cant beat that.

Dray: Pete Rose deserves to be banned. He lied for more than 15 years about his involvement. He was a great player, but as arrogant as they come. He made his own bed.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:10 PM

Someone mentioned LINDA'S CHIEF, wondering what happened to him. LINDA'S CHIEF died in 1974 at Hollywood Park during a 7 furlong stakes races (won by ANCIENT TITLE) when he fell over the rail at about the quarter pole and broke his back. It was a very awful and sad day. I remember it well.

On another thread somewhere someone asked about ENCOLURE (a RIVA RIDGE horse) and someone else answered that he fell when going "down the hill" at Santa Anita. It was actually a 1-1/16 allowance race on the dirt, not on the turf, and the incident happened at about the far turn. ENCOLURE broke down very badly, and VARIETY ROAD fell over him. ENCOLURE died. VARIETY ROAD was injured but came back to race again, never being the same.

Mike S 23 Jul 2009 1:15 PM

Seriously, if you can't see that SECRETARIAT, RIVA RIDGE, COUGAR II, KENNEDY ROAD and KEY TO THE MINT were excellent racehorses (they were "champions," and I would call several of them "great") then you need a course in Horseracing 101. SECRETARIAT was as great (maybe greater) as a horse can be!

Mike S 23 Jul 2009 1:16 PM

Reason I asked is I knew he was the club track coach but as far as I have read, he coached girls track at JFK.

I got interested because I ran track for a while. Also my Aunt was city and state champion in her age group in the long jump and 100 back in the old days in HER hometown also did High Jump and 100m hurdles and my other Aunt was a HS champion. So they talked about Carl and like track alot. (more than me).

I knew you didn't know Jason as a child, duh. Asked HIM if he had met you in Philly at some point. He said he collected on a bet from you so.......

Jason, everyone has a 'point' it's just HOW that point is made and truthfully? Some people never CAN have a civil discussion, it always deviates from civility. Just like him saying "Until someone, anyone does that... the debate is over."

NO, his part in the debate is over, right? But until the blog writer calls it, the discussion can go on, can't it? I'd hope you wouldn't call it just because HE says to.  

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 1:21 PM

Oh Lord not the Vikings.  I cannot stand that team LOL.  Also I agree about Pete Rose with Jason.  I cannot stand those types of attitudes.  Who the hell does he think he is.  

Jason.  Thanks.  Baseball is a trippy sport cause they only go to 9 innings when you wager right? Something really weird about the system on that sport.  Soccer is like that too.  I can't stand they way they stop the bet before the game is over.  Why do they do that?     Grrrrrrrrrrr

StardustyRose 23 Jul 2009 1:23 PM

Mike S.  

Agreed there.  Super horse.  Never again will there be another horse like Secretariat. He isn't my favorite horse but I still know my boundries.  :)

StardustyRose 23 Jul 2009 1:25 PM

Shawn: You can talk about anything you want, for as long as you want, as can everyone. Just keep it clean. I dont care how long the Secretariat discussion goes on.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:26 PM

Jason: Was Big Cy HOY at 2 like Big Red?

steve from st. louis 23 Jul 2009 1:26 PM

Rose: Not sure what you are talking about with baseball. As a guy who has wagered on MANY baseball games, the bet isnt final until the game is over, no matter if it goes extra innings or not. Someone gave you bad info. Soccer isnt even worth talking about it is so boring and irrelevant.

Oh, and the Vikings stink Dray. Favre is an embarrassment. He was God in Green Bay and now bc he is such an egomaniac, the whole state of Wisconsin is turning on him. For what? Just so he can throw 25 more interceptions in Minnesota for 1 year.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:31 PM

draynay,

So you are a Vikings fan? It's really true then, there is good in everbody!! I remember the 69 Super Bowl like it was yesterday along with the other Super Bowl losses suffered by the Vikes. My father took me to the 69 NFL Championahip game against the Browns and I still have one of the ticket stubs. I sold the other one on ebay a couple of years ago and got $45 for it. I worked a souveneir stand at the old Met Stadium with a friend so attended all the regular season and playoff games there. Ragnar the Vikings mascot was the parking lot attendant at my High School (he's a great guy. Just goes to show mascots are real people too. I've always disliked dome stadiums so since the Vikings moved there I prefer to watch somewhere with friends and family on TV. I'm waiting for Favre's announcement coming this Friday as to what his plans are. He's not the same QB he was years ago but is way far ahead of what we have now. I love our defense it reminds me of the Purple People Eaters of the 60's and 70's. Favre may just be the final piece to the puzzle. Training Camp opens July 31st and I'll be there to see this years "team of destiny:. How did you become a Viking Fan from Philly?

Joe Kapp was one tough Quarterback. Played the game like a linebacker. In the 69 NFL Championship Game he put his shoulder down and ran over the Browns stud linebacker knocking him out in the process.

LDP,

What's wrong with your eyes?

slyder 23 Jul 2009 1:34 PM

Steve: The awards mean little to me, especially since Ive been on the inside and know how the voting works.

I look at what they did ON THE TRACK. Citation's body or work goes well beyond Secretariat's, IMO.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:34 PM

Thanks Jason. Guess it's just his way of answering (or trying to) for you. Saw he did it to you again when someone asked about the best MLB teams and YOUR opinion on it.

What I DON'T get is how a guy, who isn't in school (and out for the summer), supposedly a businessman and NOT a writer for his job like you are,can spend so much time posting.

My Dad, does when he's off or when the office is closed but not every day (Dr Wednesday was big for him, sale on MON and Tues for us) all day. Some of these people I'm sure are retired, post on their lunch hour at work etc but he posts all over the place, not just here. Oh well, just seems odd.

I always keep it clean.

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 1:35 PM

Slyder: You remeber 1969 like it was yesterday huh? Wow, that is a lot of suffering you went through.

Final piece to what puzzle? Great running back, average rest of the team. Do the Eagles have to spank you in the one more playoff game? Have fun with a 39-year-old QB that in his prime was still an interception waiting to happen.

Here's another debate that will surely get us going. Top 5 QB's: I dont have Favre in there. No way. I dont care how many yards he has.

1. Elway

2. Montana

3. Marino

4. Unitas

5. Brady (and climbing)

Favre isnt even in top 10. I'll take Manning, Fouts, Bradshaw, Young, Moon, Staubach, etc.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:42 PM

Jason,

Manny vs the Bo-Sox? You diss Pete Rose but like Manny? C'mon Manny's only looking out for Manny. He's not a good ambassador of the game. Manny Ramirez is a cheater and sulks when he doesn't get his way. I'd much rather pull for a player like Joe Mauer to succeed than a Manny Ramirez. Pure raw talent and a real respect for the fans and the game. Did you know Joe Mauers Gpa works Canterbury Park selling a daily tip sheet and has since it opened as Canterbury Downs?

schabelli 23 Jul 2009 1:43 PM

Schabelli: Where did I say I was pulling for Manny? I dont root for any Boston or L.A. team, ever. I was giving my opinion on who will be in the World Series.

That being said, he is the best clutch hitter I have seen in the last 10 years, hands down. Did it again last night. He is entertaining, that's for sure. And he is much more likeable than the best hitter I ever saw, Barry Bonds. Talk about a guy who was a cheat...and a bad dude. I have first-hand experience with him. Seems like everyone has a negative story about him though.

BTW: I like Mauer, and a big Morneau fan too.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 1:47 PM

LDP I was a high-hurdler in high school, you had to use me underneath cuz I never won a single race! CLOSE but (I was) no Cigar!! AND I tell my three young men--1) brains...2) EYES...3) the rest, when I rate a (human) filly....though they're at the age when they go right to the #3...

Matthew W 23 Jul 2009 1:50 PM

Democratic Jack:

"I do recall a big invitational race at Arlington Park (won by Secretariat) where the big red horse's connections would not run if Linda's Chief were invited.  The same deal for the Marlboro Cup.  One wonders why...."

You need to check your facts.  Here's a link to an article where it clearly states that Linda's Chief's connections didn't want to run him further than a mile and a sixteenth, and that it was their decision to withdraw Linda's Chief from the Arlington race.  The Marlboro Cup was at a mile and an eighth, too, so my guess is that's why he didn't run there either.

As anyone can tell, I am a strong fan of Secretariat; nevertheless, I have no problem with other fans preferring other horses.  Just make sure, when you're making your arguments, that you check your facts.  I do.

news.google.com/newspapers

Cleone 23 Jul 2009 2:11 PM

How many foals were born the same years as Citation? Answer: 5,819. How many in Secretariat's year? Answer: 24,361, almost 5 times as many. As for competition,Citation had champions Coaltown, Bewitch and Noor in his crop and the filly Bewitch beat him at 2 and Noor beat him four times in a row! No horse finished in front of Secretariat twice. Explain that. Secretariat's class of 1970 foals came from all over the world, inluding champion Allez France, Annihilate 'Em, Ancient Title, Dahilia, Desert Vixen, Forego, LaPrevoyante, Mr. Prospector and Stop the Music--a who's who and a little bit deeper. Citation was great and for sheer NUMBERS, Citation at 3 was more impressive, but Secretariat's three track records* in the Triple Crown haven't been touched in 36 years despite improved equine care and procedures, improved training techniques, medical advances, etc. (*screw Pimlico's faulty timer and the Maryland Racing Commission, which refused to accept long-time DRF clocker Frenchy Schwartz stopwatch and CBS-TV's video tape, which showed Secretariat setting that track record as well. I also recall Andy Beyer questioning the accepted final time despite the fact the margins between Secretariat, Sham and My Gallant were identical from the Derby to the Preakness.) I'll also defer to Eddie Arcaro, who rode Citation. He called Secretariat the "prettiest horse he had ever seen, prettier than Eight Thirty" and the best horse he had ever seen. Economics limited Big Red's opportunities on the track at 3 and sent him to the shed after 3, just like Man 'o War a generation earlier. Just like  Koufax and Maddux, it's hard to compare athletes from different eras. All you can say is that they were the best of their time.  

steve from st. louis 23 Jul 2009 2:18 PM

Draynay, infatuated by Rachel, her legs and her unique make-up blaze, asks for a date ... now THERE, Jason, is the topic for your next conversation with the horses.  You could have Rachel talking on the phone to her BFF (what filly would she confide in?  Stardom Bound?  Life Is Sweet?) about whether or not to accept the date.  Why should she let Curlin take her for granted?  She is in Vogue magazine, for crying out loud!

Sorry, getting carried away by Girl Power. On the initial subject of this blog, I voted for Citation and agree with those who say Native Dancer belongs on the list.  Like it says in his bio, but for a few inches or feet in the Derby, he could have been a TC winner and undefeated in 22 starts.  The most revered horse ever?

Pam S. 23 Jul 2009 2:20 PM

Gotta agree that Charlie Hustle should be in the HOF. Best of his era, all he did was bet on his team to win. He's a competitive SOB and loves to be right, as do many horseplayers, so he was drawn to gambling.  He didn't take money to throw the World Series, heck, he probably wasn't even betting for the money, just the action. He's been an outcast long enough. Now let's handicap this race...

cat thief 23 Jul 2009 2:24 PM

Good post Steve. It is difficult to compare different eras. All we have to go by are the numbers and our opinions.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 2:30 PM

Pete Rose deserves to be in Cooperstown?  That's rich.  He belongs in prison.  The reason he can recall every game he played in is not representative of a photographic memory, but an egomaniac self-loving self-absorbed jackass (donkey).

Since many of you seem to be college sports fans, who is the greatest combined college athlete/college head coach in NCAA history for any sport?

Ted from LA 23 Jul 2009 2:37 PM

Tim G I get it! When a horse suffers a fatal breakdown on synthetics you blog about it--when a horse suffers a fatal breakdown on DIRT, you DON'T blog about it! Understanding that fact, I HOPE NOT to read your next blog post, but I accept that breakdowns happen in this sport....The FACT is, there HAVE been less breakdowns out West this year, they decided to go to synthetics so they would have a more consistent cushion--they went to synthetics to (hopefully) AVOID breakdowns, no one wants them!

Matthew W 23 Jul 2009 2:42 PM

Jason: I can't wait for your piece Friday on Moss and Zenyatta. When he says he wants to do "something different" with her, that has me stoked. His ego and his love for the mare will win out. Obviously, he's quite a sportsman.

steve from st louis 23 Jul 2009 2:45 PM

Steve: Thanks. I wish I had something more to give from the Moss interview, but much of what he told me is already in my article. All Im going to do tomorrow is give my opinion on where she'll go. Then, we can do what we do best, debate about it :)

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 2:48 PM

Dray:

The Sign Guy.....now that you mention his name, it sounds very familiar because the CBC network made a point of finding out who he was because as annoying as he was, he was also comical....and come to think of it, he might have had long hair...we're talking 30+ years ago.....all I know was that he was ANNOYING.

That little story you told about Pete Rose in the batting Cage......seems to me it was in one of the books I read about him.  He didn't make any mention about a MASCOT being allowed in the cage though......

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 2:55 PM

Jason,

The Vikings have the best D-Line in the league (if they can keep them off suspension). Their linebackers are well above average (Greenway should have been all-pro last year) and Henderson was having an all-pro year b4 getting hurt last year. An All-Pro D-back in Winfield is well above average. Favre won't have to throw as much with AP in the backfield so no 25 ints. Got a much better than average kicker. The coach stinks but hey most do. The team is well above average. Guess we'll see.

slyder 23 Jul 2009 2:57 PM

Steve from st louis:

Rock on.

If certain people can't understand your Secretariat/Citation logic it is simply because:

a) they don't want to

or

b) they just don't get it

I had Citation to beat Secretariat in a post above, but the comments about Noor and Bewitch made too much sense to pass up.

Now I would have Secretariat defeat Citation with MOW third in a close finish.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 3:05 PM

I just have to try to explain from my own personal perspective why Secretariat stands alone.  Jason, your explanation of how you evaluate the greatness of a horse makes perfect sense and I could agree if I could look at it that way.  And your perspective also opens for discussion how important it is for a horse to run after 3 years old.  Their career is just not complete unless they run longer.  Though from reading Bill Nack's book on Secretariat I do believe that Penny Chenery had little choice and that she would have loved to have had a 4 year old campaign with Secretariat.  Above and beyond his HOY at 2 and 3 and his racing record, stats, oversized heart, and his incomparable Triple Crown races, Secretariat had a magical presence, phenomenal way of moving and a dominating, mesmerizing way of running down his competition that was simply breathtaking.  I can't watch his races without tears running down my face. (it is really ridiculous, but true) I believe that most people who believe Red would win your fantasy race, believe it emotionally.  He may not have raced at 4 but watching how he did run I can easily believe he would only have been better as a 4 year old.  And, how a horse does in the breeding shed has nothing to do with how great a racehorse they were. (example: Cigar)

TerriV 23 Jul 2009 3:10 PM

Wow, Jason - I have enjoyed your blog, but only being a casual at best horse racing fan, I haven't joined in.  I agree with the Rose comments - biggest scumbag of all time and had his chances to own up, come clean and have a shot at the HOF.  As far as Manny, he may be the best hitter of all time; however, his lazy butt belongs in the AL as he is a defensive liability. As far as cheating, almost every era of baseball had its share, in different ways.  Maddux was a doctor in his own right.  Elway over Montana??? cmon!  If the Phillies don't get Halladay, or at least upgrade their starting pitching, they won't make the NLCS.  The NL East is the worst division in baseball!

Down With the Brown 23 Jul 2009 3:12 PM

Laz...In defense of Citation in the race with Bewitch, the top 3 finishers were all Calumet horses (with the same trainer) and the jockeys were instructed to finish 1,2,3 but not to fight for the win. They were told to let whoever was in front to just go on. (Free America was the third place horse.)

barb 23 Jul 2009 3:23 PM

As a former card carrying member of the Professional Football Writers' Association (1979-83)and former NFL beat reporter in Chicago, I had to chime in on this QB thing. All I can say is John Elway was the most gifted athlete to ever play QB in the NFL. He was a minor league cf for the Yankees and could have played pro ball. His arm was the greatest ever. Period. I don't care who you put second , third, etc., but Steve Young has to be in the top 5. Montana reminded me of a golfer who doesn't do anything spectacularly but he can get his ball in the hole and score. He was the first player to be known as a product of a system, Walsh's "west coast" offense.

steve from st louis 23 Jul 2009 3:29 PM

1 1/4 @ Belmont in late fall. Last 3 winners: '05 St. Liam, '01 Tiznow, '95 Cigar.  All 3 stalked near the front, two had Bailey up, two wore pink silks.  At Belmont, 1 1/4 starts on the clubhouse turn and those inside posts seem advantaged, although St. Liam was far outside.  If the Bid has a 1-4 post he could wire it, even with pressure from Slew and Affirmed (also in pink). The Bid on the outside with Slew or Affirmed inside of him points me to a speed dual, both those two need the lead. I gotta think stalkers/midpack closers who are 4+ yrs old.  3 yr olds are overbet in this race and rarely win, they've usually had a late 2yr old campaign and a tough 3yr old season.  Horses like Tiznow and Curlin started later in their 3 yr old year and are the exception rather than the norm.  So I'd bet against Big Red for the win (a must use in the exacta).

I'd take either/both Cigar at 20-1 and Tiznow at 25-1 and be happy. Cigar went and easy 1:59 2/5 on a slow, muddy Belmont track while 4-5 wide on the far turn. Tiznow, the only two-time winner, got to Albert the Great after 1 1/8 then held off/ battled back vs. the closer and Dubai fav. Sahkee. That could be a speed-dual compromised Bid fading as Big Red flies down the lane at Tiznow or Cigar.

cat thief 23 Jul 2009 3:34 PM

NO Matthew I was just responding to the comment about Bejarano getting injured and the suggestion that Jason start a get well blog.

You made my point FOR me. Synthetics aren't delivering as hyped.

Greg, I wrote an explanation on bone bruises to you but it seems to not have gone through. But my response to your question was:

I don't profess to be a vet, but similarities between humans and equines exist (notice how much some resemble the back end of an equine?)

A bone bruise results from compressive forces incurred during an injury as I said, bleeding that occurs under the tough fibrous covering of the bone called the periosteum. The damaged area occurs in the medullary portion of the bone and can be accompanied by bleeding and swelling.

Since bone bruises are usually caused by compression injuries it's distinctly possible that a ligament or tendon injury can accompany. Seemingly ACL injuries in humans often have bone bruises mentioned in concert.  

The thing about  a bone bruise is  that the swelling with a bone bruise is often minimal compared to a sprain or a strain. But really the only way to tell if a ligament or tendon are involved or if it is a bone bruise is MRI.

However, ruling out a fracture with an xray is advisable since the symptoms are so similar.

There's lots of case studies, publications etc to read up on. Probably terribly boring to most.

To the moderator, if my previous comment to Greg went through, please delete this duplicate.

Tim G 23 Jul 2009 3:36 PM

One more PS: I have assumed that when handicapping horses for this fantasy race, each horse would be running at his top form for this race - regardless of years racing, numbers of races etc... when Secretariat was at his best he was simply the best ever; unbeatable, unstoppable, a tremendous machine!

TerriV 23 Jul 2009 3:37 PM

Jason...and how about another QB that really gets overlooked....Bart Starr. All he did was win, baby.

And what about Tarkington?

Johnny U was the best of his era...but it's as hard to compare QB's from different eras just like baseball players and horses.

The game has changed a lot.

Saratoga AJ 23 Jul 2009 3:47 PM

Hey Barb:

Nobody needs to defend Citation...he was sensational and come to think of it, I've heard something along the lines of what you said before.

However, it seems that we for some reason need to defend Secretariat.

It's interesting the way the votes are going.  As of right now:

1-Secretarit   433  42%

2-Man 'o War   213  21%

3-Kelso        102  10%

4-Spec. Bid     91   9%

5-Citation      46   4%

6-Seattle Slew  44   4%

Biggest surprise other than the resurgance of Kelso and the less than stellar results for Citation:

Tiznow ahead of Cigar, Seabiscuit, Forgo and especiall Affirmed.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 3:50 PM

Slyder,

    I was just responding to a comment Jason said about Dray being infatuated with RA because of her legs. I was saying that why can't guys like a girls eyes. Nothing are wrong with mine, i do where glasses, but there mainly for driving and school if i'm in the back row.

LDP 23 Jul 2009 3:58 PM

Even though I love TIZNOW and think he was a great horse, and I love him as a sire as well, I don't think he would stand a chance in this "fantasy" race. I don't think CIGAR, as great as he was, would stand a chance either. I think a lot of the "newer" racing fans - the ones who came in during the last 10 or 15 years - don't realize how great SPECTACULAR BID and SECRETARIAT, and the other 1970's horses were. I think that SPECTACULAR BID was the best horse in the last 30 years, bar none. SECRETARIAT may have been even greater. SEATTLE SLEW, AFFIRMED and FOREGO were as great as can be. I think that all these 1970's horses are way better than anything we've seen in a while. Even a 70's horse like COUGAR II would be the star on dirt and turf if he were running this year, because nothing we have is in that league. So the Big Five Greats of the 1970's are surely superior to today's "greats."

Mike S 23 Jul 2009 4:29 PM

If any of you guys ever make it down to Southern California, check out Del Mar for opening day. I've gone for the last three opening days and it just keeps getting better and better. Its a good time for all to get dressed n dressed and cut loose with the booze and try to pick some winners. Plenty of Eye Candy to go around as well, which never hurts. =). Pacific Classic day is another good day for big crowds. I'm in my mid 20's and I'll tell you what, I've had the time of my life the last 3 years.

Jason,

Ever been to Opening Day @ Del Mar?

The Rock 23 Jul 2009 4:32 PM

Rock: I am ashamed to say Ive never been to Del Mar. I know, inexcusable. But Im only in my 30's I've got plenty of time. One of my best friends lives in SD, so I'll get there eventually.

Ive also never been to Arlington, which is ridiculous.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 4:37 PM

Jason,

Don't wait too long buddy. Time moves pretty fast when you're having fun. Especially with Dray everyday. Eeeekkkkk!!! lol jk.

BTW, Here's to a quick recovery to Rafael Bejarano. That spill happened right in front of me and it looked pretty nasty. Good to hear he'll be back in 3 weeks or so. Cheers Rafy!

The Rock 23 Jul 2009 4:44 PM

On and to you fella's that do attend Opening Day @ Del Mar, its probably best not to bring the wife along. LOL. For health reasons of course. ha ha

The Rock 23 Jul 2009 4:46 PM

ason you are dead wrong about Pete Rose he did nothing wrong as a PLAYER.  What he did later (after his career)as a coach is a different story.  If you want to ban people for what they did after they played you better get rid of Ty Cobb.  He was a racist and would not dine in the same room as a colored man. So if you want to ban Pete as a coach fine but he did nothing wrong during his career and the same cannot be said for hundreds of players over the last 20 years.  Oh, and you were wrong about something else.  Placing Dan Marino ahead of Bart Star and Steve Young is just plain nuts take it from a former starting High School and College Quarterback. Last, LAZMANNICK Tug McGraw was a very nice man and very nice to us kids and let us hang around him and talk to the ball players.  I have dozens of wonderful stories about Larry Bowa, Mike Schmidt and others. But Pete was something special and was all business when his feet touched the turf.  When he stepped into the batting cage you could of heard a pin drop.  No one laughed or said a word when he was in the cage. Everyone knew they were watching one of the greatest hitters of all times.  I was at the game at Riverfront when Pete got his 3,000th hit.  We never dreamed he would get 4,000 before his career was over.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 4:48 PM

Wow ! The Haskell raises price money to 1.25 million.  Lol... the things they have to do to get horses to race against Rachel.  Seems few want to show up to get there teeth kicked in.  After this race I wonder how many will duck facing her in the Travers.  

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 5:16 PM

geez, one person who knows everything, everyone, has starred at every sport yet only known by his postings on blogs????

I have a great uncle who was a running back at one of the biggest powers in college football, a cousin who was same. Their opinions are opinions on running backs, doesn't make their opinions better, THEY say.

NOW, someone in the same position playing in the same league, maybe.

But the rest has to be based on the stats I guess.

Agree on Rose Jason, he came off like a jerk. Not only was he a crook he was arrogant and just didn't give a darn until he realized he wasn't going to get into the HOF.

He gambled as a manager, am I a cynic to believe that he probably gambled as a player?

Obviously a compulsive gambler, doesn't usually happen overnight.

As far as Ty Cobb? He was a mean SOB and everyone knows that. His 'racism'? Somewhat the norm then. Wrong? Yes, definitely especially by today's standards but not illegal especially then. Immoral, unethical? Probably but what about guys with kids by several women etc? Not my way but not illegal (unless they marry them at the same time). Those who did illegal things, directly related to baseball and the possible outcome of games? VERY hard to overlook.

On Del Mar? Wow, Jason you're missing out! AP? It's okay, course you've been to Saratoga so it's a bit similar to opening day at DM.

From some things going on out in Cal I'd say maybe you better try to make it out there soon, otherwise you may be there only looking at an apartment or a store in the mall.

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 5:24 PM

Tim. G.,

    Thanks for the explanation, I'm trying to educate myself by getting all the info I can grasp. Last question, I swear, This is only a hypothetical scenario, But, If it is a damaged ligament above the fetlock, along with a Bone bruise in the same area(Back left hind leg), What is the prognosis for a full recovery?, Will the ligament ever regain its full strength it had prior to such an injury?, I know you are not a vet, But, You seem to have a lot more knowledge in this area then myself, and it would really be a shame if this turns out to end his promising young career...Thanks again..

Best QB'S???

    Being a little biased due to the fact I am a New England Patriots season ticket holder, Tom Brady will soon be the best there ever was, I believe two more Super Bowl Rings will make that statement a reality!  Until then, Number one would have to be John Elway(Only QB to start in five Super Bowls, Won two, Last game ever was in Super Bowl 33, A win over Atlanta), Thank God he finally got his Super Bowl Rings, Number two, Joe Montana, Number three, Terry Bradshaw, Then Mr. Tom Brady, Who will get his fourth Ring this year...

    The Manning's(Both Brothers), Will never be on my top ten list, EVER, Being a Patriots fan should be enough info on why I say that...

Greg J. 23 Jul 2009 6:05 PM

    I forgot to add my two cents on Pete Rose(Charlie Hustle). Say what you want about his personal life, A complete egomaniac idiot, BUT the Hall of Fame is supposed to be achieved by what you do on the field, And Pete Rose was the best pure hitter EVER, He always gave 110 Percent, He is the ALL TIME leader in Hits, Games Played, At-Bats. He had a career average of .303, Won three World Series rings, Being a die hard Red Sox fan, It is hard for me to give him his due, But, He was an incredible player, I loved the fact that whenever he got issued a walk, He would ALWAYS sprint to first base!(Can you ever imagine Manny doing that, lol), Like I said, He was a complete jerk off the field, But, If you go by the by-laws of the Hall of Fame, It is supposed to be based on what you did on the field...

Greg J. 23 Jul 2009 6:18 PM

I agree Citation is #1 when it comes to race horse champions.  He was out his 4 year old career with ocelots which were fired and came back his 5 year old year not the same Citation, but he ran and he ran hard. Heck, he was the first race horse to hit the million dollar board

Look at the San Juan Capistrano between 5 year olds Citation (130lbs) and Noor (117 lbs). They were so close it looked like one horse running and Noor may have put his nose out further, but he had to break an American record to get that nose out and just look at the weight difference as well.  

In my opinion Big Cy deserves much more respect and pushed up higher than 3rd on the charts.  Also I think Breyer should make a traditional sized model of this champion so that I can put it in my hutch next to my other Citation themed stuff:)

silverscrngirl 23 Jul 2009 6:50 PM

Jason, I'll take Slingin' Sammy Baugh and Bart Starr over Elway any day of the week.

Sammy pretty much defined the modern QB position and had a completion rate of 70.3 percent.

Tiznowbaby 23 Jul 2009 7:00 PM

Jason: The Blue Crew could use another quality starting pitcher,but not if it involves Kershaw or Billingsley.I know they're thinking of acquiring Halladay,I'm hoping they won't.They have great chemistry right now,and Halladay's ego would be a detriment in the dug-out.Plus,Kuroda will be back soon enough....LA vs. Boston!!  Gotta' love it huh?...I also will NEVER root for ANY team from....PA.,NY or Boston,but then again,so would most all of the native Californian sports fan.

Bradshaw?..Like me and my buddies always say:  That dude was sooo over-rated,just check his stats.He was average at best(think Dilfer),their defense carried them.All he did was throw-it up,and hoped the acrobatic Lynn Swann or Stallworth came down with it.He should NOT be in the NFL HOF,but like they say: 'rings get you in'...you homer! lol

Favre hater aye?...he has to be in the top 5,easy.He holds most passing records,has been  consistent for a long,long time and won a Super Bowl. Aren't those "your" requirements for "greatness" that you stipulated? ..though,I don't like his recent antics the last 3yrs,you still must give him his props.

Carlos in Cali 23 Jul 2009 7:55 PM

silverscrngirl...I have a dvd that has an interview with E Arcaro from the 70s. He said that Citation was back to his old self in the Hollywood Gold Cup and he wished they would have kept racing him. Maybe he would have won another million.

Somebody mentioned Citation being sterile, not true. I know he sired a Preakness winner.

Laz...I am suprised by the results as well. Esp. Kelso because nobody is talking about him, but they are voting for him. And Citation isn't getting votes, yet people clearly respect his "greatness". Then again I didn't vote for him either, I voted for Man O'War. I only pointed out the story with Bewitch because you said her beating him affected your opinion of him, which in this case I think would be unfair since he wasn't asked to beat her. I think he could have, not that she wasn't a fabulous racehorse in her own right. Even with the top 3 finishers in that race the connections thought that the best of their crop was still in the barn, Coaltown. Can you imagine being part of Calumet in the 40s? It must have been Heaven!

barb 23 Jul 2009 8:19 PM

The five top quarterbacks of all time are as follows.

Joe Montana

Steve Young

Bart Star

Otto Graham

John Elway

Bad news for Unitas but his QB rating is simply to low to crack the top 5.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 8:19 PM

Hmmm, Greg. Interesting. I'd say since comorbidity always complicates recovery and rehab, he'll have a tougher time if there are ligaments involved.

Depending on the severity of the injury it is possible that he won't recover or at least to the same status as he previously enjoyed.

Ummmmm, making me think too much here after a really long day. The comment of day to day actually sounds somewhat promising though.

Setbacks, can occur, but really rehab is a day to day process.

Just so hard to say. Like two patients who have a hip replacement due to traumatic fracture, one can recover completely, no trace of after effects and another can limp and be restricted for life.

Sorry folks to bore you.

Without specifics? Who knows? If it is indeed a bone bruise that is day to day? I'd say the prognosis for recovery is good to excellent.

The QB's? Elway wasn't especially well loved.  Good QB though.

Funny DN says he's been harassed since 1969? Thought you were like mid 40's?  So obnoxious you've been being harassed since pre-school? Hah, ball boy, mascot JOBS?

 

Tim G 23 Jul 2009 8:21 PM

Carlos: If the Dodgers get Halladay it's over. He's the BEST pitcher in the game. Absolute stud, and can go all 9. Workhorse. Stop with Kuroda. He's a No. 3 at best, junk baller.

Favre does hold many records, you're right, including the most interceptions. lol...Overrated and choked more times than not in big spots. I cant wait to see him come back this year and throw 25 more picks. If horse racing was as easy to predict as when he would throw big picks, I'd be a rich man...

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 8:42 PM

Who was it that said compulsive gambling doesn't happen overnight?  It did for me, and I'll bet $500 it has for others too.

Farve completely defecated in his nest when he left Wisconsin.

Ted from LA 23 Jul 2009 8:47 PM

Charlie Hustle on the field always equalled passion plus desire. Two things always stood out about him......the way he raced down to first base on a walk as per GREG J.....and the famous colision at home plate in the all-star game.  You can't knock his will to win.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 8:56 PM

Dray:

Of course you were the team waterboy when Otto played.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 8:58 PM

Carlos in Cali:

I see Halladay every time he pitches.  If there is one thing He doesn't have, it's an ego.  He gave the Jays 11 years and could have went the  fee agent route twice.  He stuck it out, loves the city and is the most respected man on the team.  You can't blame the guy for wanting to be on a winner at some time during his career.  Unfortunately, it won't happen in Toronto any time soon, so why not be up front with the team.  He didn't start this trade-me BS, it was the imbecile the Jays have for a General Manager.  If the Dodgers should be lucky enough to get him they will be getting talent+class...how can you beat that?

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 9:03 PM

You better believe you get harassed when your entire family are Cleveland Browns fans and your Grandfather is a season ticket holder at the freezing Metropolitan Stadium.  My favorite color is purple and Joe Kapp was a tough mans quarterback.  In the mid 70's when I started playing Fran Tarkenton owned the NFL and I wanted to be just like him.  Fran was a very good quarterback but leaders are judged on their teams success and with no Superbowl wins it tough to rank him with the all time greats.  But that didn't stop him from being my hero as a kid and he is the reason I started playing Quarterback.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 9:12 PM

Steve Young better than John Elway? Is that a joke?

SMA 23 Jul 2009 9:19 PM

Ted usually you make me laugh.

What I meant was you didn't suddenly wake up one day say. I'm going to the track and bet the farm and going every single day,

until I'm rich or a destitute bum.

(I MIGHT reconsider that on your behalf but the average gambler no)

Just thinking that it seems likely that, if he was a gambler who gambled on his own games, WHEN did that start?

Usually guys have some kind of preference to what game they gamble on unless they just gamble on everything, which could have been his deal too.

I just have a hard time believing he never gambled when he played.

The thought on Favre again is that if the talking heads are debating on Vick over Favre? Man that is pathetic.

Favre turned into a joke last year.

As far as QB's ranked on passing?

1 Steve Young

2 Joe Montana

This is ESPN's list (compiled by some of the greatest coaches, players etc in history)

1. Johnny Unitas

2. Joe Montana

3. Tom Brady

4. Dan Marino

5. Peyton Manning

6. John Elway

7. Terry Bradshaw

8. Brett Favre

9. Otto Graham

10. Dan Fouts

But there are as many different rankings as there are QB's

Shawn P 23 Jul 2009 9:24 PM

Jason:  fair enough,Favre has thrown way too many picks.A bit careless with the ball,but you can't knock his grit and skills.He belongs in the top echelon of quarterbacks,and you know Bradshaw has no business being mentioned with anything regarding "best" whatsoever,you know this.

Yup,Halladay is a top pitcher,but his Sh@##y holier-than-thou attitude will not be welcomed in the Dodger dug-out.That's why they got rid of Penny and to some degree Lowe.Kuroda has been their most consistent pitcher the last 2/3yrs,trust me on that.He's good,too bad he's injured.With his return and Schmidt's continued(fingers crossed) comeback,we should be primo heading into the post-season.We'll see what happens....LOVE this time of year!..with the MLB play-offs in sight,Football around the corner,the NBA season starting in Oct.,boring Hockey nowhere in sight and the BC coming up.What more can you ask for.

Carlos in Cali 23 Jul 2009 9:50 PM

I was a big Steve Young fan, but c'mon, he wasnt Elway's equal. The man had a rocket for an arm, was mobile, was deadly accurate, won 2 super bowls and had more 2-minute comebacks than anyone. Remember, Young only had 6 or 7 seasons as an NFL starter. He played in the USFL and then say behind Montana for a few seasons. Dray, stick to stalking Rachel. Leave the NFL discussions to us.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 9:58 PM

Carlos: OK, because of Favre's longevity, I'll give in, I'll put him at #10 :)

I'm not sure where yo get all this Halladay ego stuff. Ive never read any stuff about him being like that. And c'mon, nodody is more selfish than Manny. If he can fit in that clubhouse, trust me, Halladay would.

As far as Jason Schmidt, please. The man is done! Stick a fork in him! I saw him pitch against Cincy the other night and he was tossing meatballs. Between him and Kuroda, they are lucky to combine to hit 90 on the gun. lol

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 10:02 PM

Jason:

I agree with you about Halladay....He's simply class all the way.  I can't count the number of times the bullpen has blown it for him, especially when the manager took him out to save him for another day and Doc really didn't want to come out.  But he never said anything even though you could see it on his face (disappointment not disgust).  The worst part was seeing him in the dugout when they blew a game that he had totally under control so many times).  A guy like the Doc might straighten out that clown Manny just by being himself.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 10:16 PM

So many great ones out there.

I'm a little surprised no mention of a guy who, although he choked in the Super Bowl(s) still as the HOF says at the time of Jim Kelly's retirement, "only Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, and Johnny Unitas among Hall of Fame quarterbacks had passed for more yardage, and only Tarkenton, and Fouts had completed more passes".

Speaking of which, what about Fran?

Where is the old man Y.A. Tittle? No Joe Namath fans? How about Jim Plunkett or McMahon?

Jason, kinda like you said about the recognition of horses in TV time or the most current, the selections on here are mostly recent QB's.  Dray is talking about the real old timers? Wow that's a turnabout Joe Kapp? Send that bum back to New Mexico where he was born. By the way The Longest Yard was on the other day, bad actor too.

Why would someone who supposedly resides in Ohio, etc, from NJ spent time in Philly, be a Minnesota fan??????

Tim G 23 Jul 2009 10:29 PM

MLB Network reported that an 'unnamed star player' for Toronto said: Halladay has obviously distanced himself from the team the last couple of years.(I'm thinking Vernon Wells,possibly)

Meatballs?...lol,old school & still funny.He's learning how to pitch without his customary high velocity because of the surgeries.Give him a break,that was his 1st MLB start in over 2yrs.Yes he had a bad 1st inning,but he didn't allow a single hit after that(5 innings).If he can continue his comeback and stays healthy,he'll be alright.Remember,he still possesses a wicked Curve,Slider & Sinker...location,location,location.

Carlos in Cali 23 Jul 2009 10:42 PM

Tim: I get blasted all the time by my friends because I root for the Braves, not the Phillies. So I cant talk!

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 10:55 PM

Dodgers still need 1 more arm to put them over the top Carlos. If they get it, it's over. That lineup is sick.

jshandler 23 Jul 2009 10:56 PM

Jason:

Horses that weren’t on the list that maybe should have been:

• Native Dancer…like the story goes, a couple more inches and he would have been an undefeated TC winner going 22 for 22….#7 top 100 (how can you leave him out).

• Whirlaway…HOY in 1941 and 1942….TC winner and Travers winner…#26 top 100….worse than 3rd only 4 times in 56 races.

• Pharlap….mysterious death I think says lots…#22 top 100.

Exclude (with no disrespect):

• Tiznow…as good as he was wouldn’t compete against these these

• War Admiral…can’t take away from his accomplishments, but still lost to Seabiscuit.  Surprised he is rated as high as #13 on top 100.

• Seabiscuit….as great and as loveable as he was he is still a one-time claimer who lost 56 times.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 11:00 PM

Carlos:

I wish Wells would distance himself from the team.  Talk about an over-rated, over-inflated multi-trillionaire who once he got the money wasn't even remotely close to being the same anymore.

If you ask real baseball insiders or even his catcher Barajas you'll get the real answer.  Not once in 11 years has anybody said that Halliday has been difficult, remote, indifferent or a jerk.  He has always been accommodating for various causes, and so has his wife.  If you're a Dodger fan he would put your team over the top without question, but the problem is...what you would have to give up in return and if they are current roster players, that would surely change the chemistry.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jul 2009 11:09 PM

Agreed Jason,you can never have too many quality starting pitchers.Speaking of,that Buehrle guy is pretty good aye?... Manny is a team player and perfect for this young clubhouse,just don't *@#$ with his money or publicly dis' him and he'll behave.  lol. You're right that line-up is sick,1-8,inter-changeable.

Carlos in Cali 23 Jul 2009 11:17 PM

Tim, I am a child of the 70's and my favorite sports teams prove that.  I am a Laker fan, a Viking fan, and a Oriole and Reds fan.  I have a older brother who is a huge Cleveland everything fan and rightfully so (he pitched for their minor league team) but as a younger brother I wanted to show my independence.

Draynay 23 Jul 2009 11:42 PM

Yes Jason but the Braves vs the Vikings???????

The Braves have/had some of the best players of the last 17-18 years:

Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Steve Avery, Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Dave Justice etc.

Their record starting in 1991 was nothing short of amazing. Despite their semi-fall from the top, and their sale they are still nothing to laugh at, historically especially.

Who could forget the one and TRUE Hammerin Hank, Hank Aaron?  Milwaukee and ATL.

Plus the music scene in ATL has been at the top the last number of years, or so I'm told by people much cooler than me.

Tim G 23 Jul 2009 11:45 PM

Steve from St Louis: No Citation was not voted Horse of the Year at 2 but not because he didn't deserve it. Back in his day the "powers that be" did not believe in voting a 2 year old the horse of any year. In fact, NATIVE DANCER was the first 2 year old to be voted Horse of the Year and he had to share as co-horse of the year because one of the voting groups refused to choose a two year old.  Secretariat was the second two year old to win the title but by then the feelings about the subject had changed and the separate voting entities were combined into one.  And by the way, just a note to those who don't want to vote for a horse they never saw run - you don't have to have seen them to give due credit - just read the amazing history.  I never saw Native Dancer or Citation or Whirlaway (or any others before Secretariat) but I can tell you they were GREAT horses in the golden age of racing!

As for the interview with Mr. Moss, I still didn't learn anything.....?  They might do something different?  Why the suspense - why not just say what your plans are - IF things work out?  Doesn't sound like they intend to meet Rachel though it sounds good to say they would like to see it happen.  I am irritated with the lack of information from that camp....

Racingfan 24 Jul 2009 12:20 AM

LAZMANNICK - I agree with your 7-23 11pm post!  Native Dancer DEFINITELY belonged on that list.  Boy do I wish he had won the Derby - then he would get the credit he deserves!!! He was awesome and was the first true "celebrity" race horse!  Whirlaway was great too and has really been under appreciated also - glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks so.  I've never read a lot about Phar Lap but from what I do know, he was awesome as well.  What a race this would be! If I staged it though, it would be on a straight course (which I know does not exist - but it is my fantasy race) so there could be no excuses of interference-especially on the turns - (look at all the excuses that were thrown around this year - imagine how it would be in that race).  LOL!

DANCERS1FAN 24 Jul 2009 1:02 AM

Here is "Division B" of The Fantasy Breeders Cup Classic, comprised of some of racing's greats that didn't make the cut to be included in the big race. I'm making this race at 10 furlongs on dirt, at Belmont, and allowing 14 starters. I know who I'm rooting for!

:)

ROUND TABLE

SIR BARTON

COUNT FLEET

NATIVE DANCER

NASHUA

SWAPS

ACK ACK

COUGAR II

SUNDAY SILENCE

DR. FAGER

DAMASCUS

BUCKPASSER

GHOSTZAPPER

FOOLISH PLEASURE

Mike S 24 Jul 2009 1:37 AM

Oh no! I just created a 2nd Fantasy Breeders Cup field and I forgot JOHN HENRY!!!

Mike S 24 Jul 2009 1:45 AM

Well said, Jason, regarding Elway over Young. I would also add that #7 played with mediocre offensive talent through most of his career, whereas Steve Young had some of the best receivers and backs in the league. Young was a fine signal-caller, but ranking him ahead of Elway is just ignorant.

SMA 24 Jul 2009 2:03 AM

Nobody answered the NCAA question (Jason you can play along too).  Who is the greatest combined athlete/eventual head coach of any sport in NCAA history?

Ted from LA 24 Jul 2009 2:17 AM

Why are Affirmed and Seabiscuit 8-1 and 10-1, while Bid is 10-1, Slew and Forego 15-1???  As a handicapper I have to take the odds...Bid at 10-1?  Come on!!!  I'm not sure who was better Bid or Secretariat, but I know they were the best 2 I ever saw run.  As far as the before I was born crew, I would take Man 'O War over Citation with Count Fleet and Kelso third and fourth.

BTW, as a gigantic Rachel fan (you are not alone Draynay) I created a fantasy female race open to all females of the past forty years and got votes from all my horse racing friends.  The results....

1) Ruffian

2) Rachel Alexandra

3) Lady's Secret

4) Personal Ensign

5) Princess Rooney

6) Desert Vixen

7) Zenyatta

8) Genuine Risk

9) Go For Wand

10) Rags to Riches

Also Ran - Bayakoa, Winning Colors, Gallant Bloom, Azeri, Bold 'n Determined, Susans's Girl, Shuvee.

Comments?

ABZ 24 Jul 2009 10:38 AM

Ted: I wouldnt even know where to begin on that question. It's very tough. Throw out some names and I'll weigh in.

jshandler 24 Jul 2009 11:16 AM

Racingfan: I think Mocassin was named co-horse of the year in 1965 as a 2YO by one of the voting entities.  That would make her the 2nd 2YO HOY, not Secretariat (if I'm remembering right.  

Sort of funny, when you consider the male 2YO champ that year was Buckpasser (I think)

mz 24 Jul 2009 11:56 AM

Yeah, barb, I noticed someone said Citation was sterile, too. He was not sterile; was the damsire of 33 stakes winners and sired Fabius, a Preakness winner.

Ted from LA---Give some sort of clue. Are you asking about a "team" sport such as basketball, or a sport that has both teams and individual events such as swimming? Is this coach currently coaching?

Karen in Texas 24 Jul 2009 12:00 PM

The CCAO should be a good one,I'll take High Tap/Moon' for my Ice Cold Exacta.

Carlos in Cali 24 Jul 2009 12:37 PM

Warren Moon put up huge #'s running the run'n'shoot---getting hit EVERY time (with no back) AND delivering--He makes my top tep easy---Also in Young's defense (!!), he did not always have a running game he could count on--THEY KNEW he was going to pass, and run, and they could not stop him....agree on Elway at the top, When he finally got HIS running game, made ya think, "What if...."....Thinking there's a resurgence of good new QB talent right now....

Matthew W 24 Jul 2009 12:47 PM

Hit on Afleet Eagle opening day...barely lost on Corey in yesterday's feature...gonna side with Mr Drysdale and Gretsky today at Del Mar, going against the current trend of speed on the Dmr turf...

Matthew W 24 Jul 2009 12:51 PM

ABZ:

Like your Distaff.

Interesting that you have Ruffian first after the great Rachel debate.

Shuvee would definitely be in my top five or six.

I don't think Rachel should be second, maybe in the top ten, but definitely not second.  She would go down to at least eighth or nineth at this point on my list.

Where's Mom's Command?  Her profile is unbelievable and she defeated Lady's Secret.

Great froup of fillies and mares though.

LAZMANNICK 24 Jul 2009 2:45 PM

I can't believe that I'm the only one who loves the field I assembled for "division B" of the Fantasy Breeders Cup Classic. I think it's an amazing field, and almost as great as the one assembled for this discussion. :)

Mike S 24 Jul 2009 3:23 PM

Mom's was beaten enough not to quite make the cut...Shuvee is interesting but she was really no match for Gallant Bloom in several races...I have Rachel first on my list, but this was a consensus of nine horse racing nuts.

ABZ 24 Jul 2009 3:27 PM

Mike S,

Alydar, Alydar, Alydar!

I believe him to better than at least half of your list...other than that, not bad.

ABZ 24 Jul 2009 3:30 PM

ABZ...OH NO! You're right! I forgot ALYDAR. I forgot JOHN HENRY. What was I thinking? Now we have a field of 16! Maybe it's time for me write Division C, and put in ALYDAR, JOHN HENRY, EASY GOER, BOLD RULER, ANCIENT TITLE, etc.

Mike S 24 Jul 2009 3:51 PM

ABZ:

Consenses of nine horse racing nuts.....what.....Draynay has eight bothers???

Shuvee has to make the top five or six.  Don't forget she won the Jockey Club Gold Cup at 2-miles agains males two years running and to show that she didn't shy away from the males, she finished third in the Whitny.

Mom's Command never saw a maiden or allowance race.  All her races were stakes.

LAZMANNICK 24 Jul 2009 4:13 PM

So i was watching something on youtube and this popped up under related searches. thought everyone on here might like it.

www.youtube.com/watch

Lady Ruffian 24 Jul 2009 4:18 PM

LAZ,

I do not know Draynay...I promise!

Mom's was an excellent horse and she certainly got some consideration on the larger list, but she received no top 10 votes.

Shuvee was a wonderful mare for several years, but the fact that Gallant Bloom defeated her the last four times they raced was her downfall in narrowly missing the top 10.

ABZ 24 Jul 2009 4:35 PM

Mike S - I like your field choices for Division B VERY MUCH - but I believe Native Dancer belonged in Division A since he is truly an all time great and I would still love to see Whirlaway on the list. Time for Division C.....?

MZ - you are correct - I did not know about Moccasin but she was named HOTY at two.  I had read in an article about Secretariat that he was the 2nd - but actually just the second colt I guess.  Thanks!

Racingfan 24 Jul 2009 7:02 PM

Sound, at his peak and with Red Pollard as his jockey and Tom Smith as his trainer, Seabiscuit would be right there with Man O' War. GO BISCUIT!

I love Mine That Bird 24 Jul 2009 10:28 PM

Racingfan:

Maybe you were confused because when Secretariat was named HOY at two he beat out Le Prevoyant, a 2 y-o filly, the only time that two year olds finished one-two in HOY balloting.

LAZMANNICK 24 Jul 2009 10:51 PM

Barb: I think that if Big Cy was very fit by the Hollywood and getting better than he probably could have had one helluva 6 yr old season to leave on.  I am gonna have to find that interview with Arcaro to watch:)

As for the Bewitched beating, I read that Cy was held back since Calumet had their 1-2-3 placing and also that there was a possiblity of holding back to make sure she came up with the win.  The jockey (can't remember name...dang! sorry!) even kicked himself in the aft for letting him be beaten like that.

Cy wasn't sterile, he just did not get any mini Cys in his crops, there was a filly that did pretty good though.  Calumet even tried to replicate Citation in a full sibling which didn't not go as planned.

silverscrngirl 25 Jul 2009 6:29 AM

Gable.

Ted from LA 26 Jul 2009 1:49 AM

I'm thinking it would be Secretariat (win), Man o'War (2nd), Kelso (3rd).

Zenyatta 26 Jul 2009 8:49 AM

Secretariat over Man O War, Citation 3rd, Damascus 4th.  Slew and Bid next.  

I dont think a single horse that raced after the Bid retired would crack the top 10.  

ace 18 Aug 2009 3:05 PM

No contest here. The greatest horse ever to look through a bridle, 1 1/4 in 157.4. SPECTACULAR BID

Howard B 15 Sep 2009 3:21 PM

Leave a Comment

All comments are moderated and must be approved before they are posted. The blog author reserves the right to edit or omit any comment.

  (Appears with your comment) (required)
  (Will not be published) (required)
  (required)

Breeders Cup Chat

Resources

Click Here to download BloodHorse.com Widgets!