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Zensational is a 'Beast'... and Getting Better

As many of you know, there aren't many horses in training that I like more than Fabulous Strike. The gutsy 6-year-old will try for his second Vosburgh win next week and then a decision will be made whether to send him back to California for the Breeders' Cup Sprint, where he finished fifth a year ago.

Until very recently, I thought Fabulous Strike was the best sprinter in the country. Not anymore. Zensational, or the "Beast" as Bob Baffert affectionately calls him, is a far and away No. 1. And he is only getting better.

How good is he? In a recent TVG interview, I heard Baffert say that the best three horses he's ever trained were, in no particular order, Point Given, Midnight Lute...and Zensational. I did a double take when I heard that. And this was before he won the Pat O'Brien.

As deep as the sprint division is this year, the BC Sprint might be the easiest Pick 6 single of the championships. Yes, I know we are still more than six weeks away, but Zensational looks unbeatable.

So far we know that Kodiak Kowboy and Vineyard Haven probably won't go, and the status of Munnings, Benny the Bull, Capt. Candyman Can, and of course, Fabulous Strike, are still in doubt. But I don't think it matters who shows up. This horse is so fast, and so deadly on synthetics, that they are all probably running for second.

I decided to call Baffert and ask him just how special this 3-year-old son of Unbridled's Song really is. After the interview, I came away thinking he is even better than I originally thought. Scary. You'll think so too after you read Baffert's comments.

JS: What is the plan for Zenzational leading up to the Breeders' Cup?

BB: I'll just work him up to the race. He's athletic and strong; very easy to get ready. He hasn't worked since the Pat O'Brien, so I'm going to work him tomorrow morning (Sept. 23). I have him here (at Santa Anita) now. I have to get him used to this surface.

JS: He won at Santa Anita last year so we know he likes the surface. But how much different is it than Del Mar and Hollywood (where he won his grade I races)?

BB: It's very different. They are all different. And we won't know how it is until the meet starts. It's tricky. When it's cool, it's a lot better. When it's hot, it gets like cake. It rises. We'll have to figure it out.

JS: When did you know how special Zensational was?

BB: We knew he was fast right away, but he wasn't mentally mature at first. When I ran him long (a mile March 27 at Santa Anita in an optional claimer), it was a disaster. He didn't know what was going on and still hung on for second.

He came back in that Friday night race (May 29 at Hollywood) and had every reason not to win. We hauled him over the day of the race; then it was bad atmosphere in the paddock. There was a speed horse in the race that just cooked him. He ran a :21 and then like a :43 half. It was crazy. Zensational had to move early at the three-eighths pole. He got the lead in like three jumps but it looked like there were a bunch of horses that were going to go by him like they always do on these tracks. But then Victor (Espinoza) hit him and he re-broke. We all just went ‘wow.' And he wasn't even tired after the race. Anyone who watched that race that day was amazed. That's when I nicknamed him the ‘Beast.'

JS: I saw that TVG interview when you said he was one of the top three horses you've ever trained. That took me by surprise.

BB: Well, what I meant by that is pure, raw talent. I have my top 5 in regards to that kind of Rachel Alexandra talent when they do things that just make you say ‘wow.' They are Midnight Lute, Silverbulletday, Indian Blessing, Point Given, and Zensational (in no particular order).

This horse is good and he is getting better. His sire was that way, but not like this. I think this might have been the perfect genetic mix. He's strong and big-boned. He's special. And he's just three.

He's fast, but he's a different kind of fast. I once saw where someone said a cheetah is the only animal that can go from zero to forty in two jumps. I think that's wrong now. This horse can do that.

The thing is, I told Victor not to ask him yet. I told him to wait until the Breeders' Cup. Hopefully then we'll see how good he really is.

JS: Wow. And I guess the fact that he is running at Santa Anita gives him even more of an edge in the Breeders' Cup?

BB: Honestly, I think he's at a disadvantage on synthetics. I think he'll be better on dirt. On synthetics it's hard to separate from other horses.

JS: That's saying a lot. Will you run him on dirt or at a longer distance next year?

BB: I'm not sure yet. We have time for that. I'm just trying to get him ready for the Breeders' Cup now. I don't want to jinx myself. I always get nervous when I run this horse because he is so good and I know he is going to win if nothing (bad) happens. I always wonder, is this going to be the day when he doesn't do what I know he can do?

JS: Zensational started out with Bill Mott. How was it that he came into your barn?

BB: I forget exactly what happened. He made his debut at Saratoga (for Mott) and something happened. Everyone knew about him at Saratoga. He was working like a monster. But I'm not sure what happened (when he ran fourth). He might have come out of the race with shins so they sent him back to the farm and turned him out the rest of the year. Mr. Zayat sent him to me (this year) and it turned out to be an awesome pick up.

He's changed so much in the last 60 days. I'm just trying to keep him happy and we'll keep our fingers for the Breeders' Cup. If all goes well, we'll find out how good he really is.

193 Comments:

I would love to see him take on Vineyard at 6 furlongs.  I will take Vineyard. "I forgot exactly what happend?"  Are you kidding me ?  Spill it Bob !

Draynay 22 Sep 2009 5:42 PM

How could Bob Baffert have left Silver Charm off his list of his five most talented horses? In 21 races at three and four, he ran a 102 Beyer or higher in twenty of them, including a 123 in the Kentucky Cup Classic, won two Triple Crown races and the Dubai World Cup, and won 12 of 24 races, including eleven stakes. Poor Charm doesn't even get respect from his trainer.

Citation 22 Sep 2009 6:01 PM

    I can't believe Silver Charm Real Quiet & Captain Steve weren't amongst Baffert's top 5.  Seriously, over the course of the last 12-15 years, has any trainer in the US been so blessed with the kind of talent Baffert's trained?

    As for Zensational, I have to admit you may be right about that horse being a Pick Six single.  Not only is the horse extremely talented, but he won't have to travel cross country like the others you have mentioned as BC Sprint contenders.  He's already settled in and getting use to his surroundings.  I think that's a big advantage.  Anyway, the only downfall might be that he's out of Unbridled Song.  Unbridled Song horses are as talented as they come, but they also tend to be very unsound.  Hopefully Zensational make it all the way to the BC Sprint & beyond without any mishaps.

Curlin 22 Sep 2009 6:12 PM

are we to believe this spew? this guy is the ultimate talker...and talk is cheap in this particular sport. we'll see what this horse is made of on the track, and not in print somewhere! remember, most of the horses that have the credentials to beat this horse are not synth horses, so who knows what one will bring when they get to SA.....

rick 22 Sep 2009 6:23 PM

I still like Midnight Lute, a BIG guy.

Like 'BOB' is going to spill the beans to anyone outside of racing. Zayat pulled the horses from him in 08 'because he didn't like the synthetics'. Pulled them from Bill because he wanted to go back to the West. (AFTER naming one after Riley, so weird). Ramsey's parted with Romans after years, Evans from Frankel. Guess what? It's an owners perogative. The thing is, those outside the inner circle never WILL know the real reason why. (ESPECIALLY from the trainer who GOT them). Still that closed society that some talked about on here. If you don't belong to it, you'll never know.

 

Shawn P 22 Sep 2009 6:27 PM

JASON,

Mark these words, a fit and ready FATAL BULLET will outgun Zensational on the Proride in the Breeder's Cup sprint.

Ranagulzion 22 Sep 2009 6:34 PM

The "Beast", Wow. And to put him in the top five best talent wise horses he's ever trained. Zensational, IMO should be a nomination for top three year old, if not the winner. He this season has done more than most of the other 3yr olds have done. Having 3 consectutive grade ones against older males, is quite an achievement. I know SB has won the Travers and Belmont, but seriously a person could make an argument that Zensational is more accomplished. If he wins the Sprint, it will be a crime to NOT vote him best 3yr old.

LDP 22 Sep 2009 6:36 PM

There are some horses out there that can run a 43 flat.  Zensational is beating up on California horses, the real talent will be coming out in November and I will be betting against him.  California horses are like watching AAA ball.

Draynay 22 Sep 2009 6:43 PM

I agree, he looks unbeatable on synthetics.

He is awesome and deserves his props.

I'm really looking forward to seeing our horse in the Vosburgh.

He loves Belmont.

Six Fs is his best.

Just hope for an outside post.

If Todd puts him away for the year following that race, I could not blame him.

I'd hate to see him out there spinning his wheels on that stuff.

Maybe he can hit a race at Aqueduct later in the year and hope for good health in 2010.

Best to Bob and the Beast.

Perhaps the two will meet at CD next time.

Peace

Virgil Fox 22 Sep 2009 7:07 PM

Any 3 year old who can face older horses at 120 and blaze like he did in the Pat O Brian deserves respect.  It's been a good year for Zayat and horses formerly trained by Mott.  Not to take anything away from Baffert but POTN was pretty much ready to peak when he arrived at the Baffert barn  

Householder 22 Sep 2009 7:11 PM

On Raw talent I would not put Silver Charm on this list either..On heart and desire maybe he gets the top spot!!

MsComeonNow 22 Sep 2009 7:29 PM

Rick: Do you have any idea what you are talking about? He just won three grade ones in a row. How's that for proving it on the track?

Baffert wasn't bragging. He was answering the questions honestly, which is refreshing.

For those of you who have a problem with his top 5, why? He's just giving his opinion on his "most talented" horses from a physical standpoint. He didnt say who his favorites were. Relax.

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 7:38 PM

Carlos: I was there last year and will be there again this year.

Dray: You are truly a dope.

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 7:41 PM

Silver Charm is my all time favorite horse.  I am convinced he would have won the Breeders Cup if he had seen the other horse.  When he was in a tough stretch run, and could look at the other horse, Silver Charm was tough to beat.  I think it is a disgrace that Bob Baffert did not mention him.

SP 22 Sep 2009 7:43 PM

kevinhare,

he's not "out of" unbridled's song, he's BY unbridled's song. your analysis has to be called into question now....

rick 22 Sep 2009 7:45 PM

MIDNIGHT LUTE WOULD BLOW ZENZATIONAL AWAY! Let's see if Z breaks 1:07 flat that ML posted at BC Sprint last year!

IWHAMMER 22 Sep 2009 7:47 PM

Well Done!,

     Thanks Mr. Baffert and Jason for some insight into this Speed Freak!  Ever since I saw him in person last August at the Spa, I have loved this horse!  I agree that once he goes back on the dirt, he will be even better(Which is insane to say!).  He will follow Mr. Baffert's Thirty Slews and easily take the Sprint!(Jason, You have to let me take him to get my hundred back, I will give you the field and three lengths!, lol).  Just watch, "The Beast" will run a quarter mile in 20 seconds in the Sprint...Not too shabby for a $20K price tag as a yearling!($700K as a juvenile)...

On a side note, I think it is criminal if they are actually bringing back "Lava Man" to run!  I can not say how upset this makes me, You have no idea!  It was all arranged to send him to Old Friends to enjoy his WELL deserved retirement.  I guess 5.27 Million in winning's isn't enough for a 50K claimer?  I hope I am wrong and he becomes a stable pony, I mean, It will be almost 1 1/2 years since his last race when he hits the track again! He has had bone chips removed from his ankles, followed by stem cell therapy to help prevent the future onset of lameness and arthritis, And now they want to race a 8 year old that has gone through all this?  Makes no sense and the people who are making this pathetic decision should be embarrased of themselves, Think about that when you look at yourselves in the mirror, Shameful...

Finally, It has been a very tough week, With the loss of three greats in their own right...

R.I.P Haveaheavenlytime, El Prado, and Summer Squall...

Greg J. 22 Sep 2009 7:48 PM

jshandler,

I realize you are the moderator, but c'mon...the fields he has been facing are less than stellar (to say the very least), especially in the Pat O'Brien....and proving it on the track would apply to horses like Munnings, Vineyard Haven, Cpt. Candyman Can and so on. at least they've faced something. Zensational may win (because despite my opinion, this is still horse racing, and he's a fine animal), but by no means is this horse a single on the most unpredictable day in racing. more likely, Goldikova is your true "best single"....but once again, tread lightly. and really, the moderator should state an opinion, and let us the readers duke it out. if you didn't want differing opinions, then you should keep yours to yourself!!!

rick 22 Sep 2009 7:54 PM

Hay Draynay

Sounds like your next big horse isn Vineyard.....I think you're going to be disappointed.

Isn't it amazing that two of the very best horses this year start with ZEN.....

LAZMANNICK 22 Sep 2009 8:04 PM

Right Jason, Bob doesn't have to brag, he's got some awesome horses.

Lute's my fav because he ran in the mud and won, had a terrible prep, ran on the synthetics and won.

I'll admit I'm not a fan of the synthetics, but I think Zensational's got the talent to win on anything.

It's not unusual at all for a 2 year old to end up with shins.

Now as far as getting a 2 year old to the Derby off the syns? I wouldn't want to do it.

Neither would a lot of trainers.

But why not run a sprinter in the BC where you can make money, then taking him to Dubai on their new synthetic for one of THOSE big purses?

If he can make money with a sprinter in Cal or on the syns, what's the reason to leave?

Other than the fact that Bob likes them about as much as the rest of us do. Cake? Now there's a new term for it.

Shawn P 22 Sep 2009 8:04 PM

Good one rick!

SP do you mean the TC?

Well that's racing, sure lots of others would say 'I'm convinced I would've won if.'

Shawn P 22 Sep 2009 8:06 PM

one more for you jshandler,

when I said weak fields, I forgot how truly weak they were...

TRIPLE BEND:

beat Star Nicholas, and Paul's Hope (and lesser mention to Rebellion and Street Magician), with Liquidity and Monterey Jazz scratched.

BING CROSBY:

beat Talkin to Mom Roo...say no more

PAT O'BRIEN:

beat Noble Court, and again beat Talkin to Mom Roo, with very little else notable to speak of.

HOW'S THAT FOR CLASS?

BETTER THINK TWICE BEFORE MAKING THIS "BEAST" YOUR SINGLE

rick 22 Sep 2009 8:08 PM

correction rick, I meant good catch on the 'out of'.

Not the first comment, that's pfffffttttttt.

Shawn P 22 Sep 2009 8:09 PM

That's the great thing about this blog Jason.  You can come back here after the Breeders Cup and look up this post where I said Zensational is overrated and has only been beating up on the minor league horses.  When the big players show up let me know how he does.  The first time he faces another horse running a 43 flat he is going to fold like a house of cards.  YOU HEARD IT HERE. Dope.

Draynay 22 Sep 2009 8:16 PM

OK Rick. Are you a gambling man or do you just talk?

I'll give you the field for the BC Sprint right now. I'll take Zensational. What kind of odds will you give me and how much do you wanna bet?

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 8:18 PM

Dray: Get a a clue. He already faced a horse running a :43 flat and won going away. Or did you not read the Baffert comments or watch the race!!

I'll make the same bet with you that I offered Rick. Put your money where your mouth is.

BTW, werent you the one who said you "had no respect for me" because I said Ventura would beat your boy Bribon last week? I forget, what happened? Have any respect for me now? BTW, dont hear you talking about Bribon anymore. You're a joke.

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 8:21 PM

Please single this horse!!!  

If the BC Sprint is a 5 horse field full of allowance horses, than by all means Zensational will be almost unbeatable.

3-year-old champion???  Excuse me, I just threw up in my mouth a little.

ABZ 22 Sep 2009 8:21 PM

HELLO JASON:

Great job! I will agree and state BB is a  great trainer for certain,but he also has the habit of changing like the weather on who is "his all time fav". Can also say I spent some time a couple weeks back in Kentucky with an individual who has personal knowledge of BB and his name came up in our conversation. "Egomanic" is what was stated to me. Great trainer,sure but there's more to training than that. He's a complete turn off w/ his attitude!

Mike Relva 22 Sep 2009 8:22 PM

as much as i like zensational i dont think he will win the BC sprint. only because he will be on the lead and 10 horses would be pressuring him the whole way around.

thomas 22 Sep 2009 8:24 PM

Bob Baffert told a friend of mine "the only horse who can beat zensational in BC this yr wld b if they brought midnight lute back"

DP333 22 Sep 2009 8:28 PM

Why do so many peoople including Jerry Baily conclude that Vineyard Haven is a superior horse to Capt. Candyman Can? The Capt. had to go 4 or 5 wide, have slop spashed in his face, and be bumped twice. Was I seeing things when the fouls kept the Capt. from passing him?

Is it because VH was away longer?, because he is owned by Godolphin?, because he has a weird front action? Because he cost so much?I don't get it. The Capt. has won 5 stakes, let's keep him under the radar.

Umatilla Joe 22 Sep 2009 8:37 PM

Backing you up Jason.....When ZEN (2) raced a horse going in .43 he was only a neck behind and still won going away.

LAZMANNICK 22 Sep 2009 8:42 PM

Wow Jason you picked Ventura to win? What a stretch, and she got nice soft ground after pouring the entire night before the race. I would have never have thought to jump off Bribon on soft ground and on to Ventura great job Jason! Get serious rookie.  I will give you 2 to 1 on Zensational put up or shut up.

Draynay 22 Sep 2009 8:43 PM

HEY!,

   Jason, That was my wager against you, No fair, lol...

If he goes, California Flag & Zensational in Stone Cold Exacta in Sprint, a little redemption for Flag from last year...

Greg J. 22 Sep 2009 8:45 PM

Dray: First of all, the ground was firm. I dont even know where to start with your assinine comments so I'll just bite my tongue and say...you're on for the bet. Go away now.

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 8:46 PM

Draynay

It hadn't rained in Toronto in almowst three weeks.....Where was the sof ground you were talking about?

LAZMANNICK 22 Sep 2009 8:48 PM

This is getting good!

The mental midget of handicapping with a chalk outline everywhere he goes, battling the handicapping turf writer. ON THIS particular wager, my money is on you Jason.

Just wait though we've still got 6 weeks + to go, chalkman won't be able to resist the chalk and will fall into line after changing his mind 16 times.

I crack up at this 'a guy told me this about this other guy'. Man, ever hear of a.jealousy and envy or b. people who don't KNOW other people are full of it and c. people who are at the top have confidence or they don't stay

at the top long.

These blog comments,better known as trash the trainer, are soon going to limit Jason's ability to get these guys to talk to him, through no fault of his own.

Shawn P 22 Sep 2009 8:53 PM

Dray,

I would agree with Jason, you are a joke. Get off this site. Please realize Californina sprinters are the best in the world. In fact when was the last time a CA based horse didnt win the breeders sprint? CA based sprinters dominate eastern crap!!! I am so glad the breeders cup is in Californina, so we do not have to witness a MUD bath back east.  East Coast racing is a complete farce. RA is even afraid to come out west.

rhoward 22 Sep 2009 8:58 PM

I've met and talked to BB at several racing events including at the Derby victory party in the Derby Museum when he won with War Emblem.  He was nothing but a gentlemen.  I've also met the owner of this horse on a couple of occasions.  I will never bet on one of his horses as long as I live.

Ted from LA 22 Sep 2009 9:05 PM

yuck! when you start listing your best horses, you throw out some superstars. I love you bob, but I don't think that is the way to handle this.  I do remember silver charm giving you ever thing he had every time he got on the track to not be neglected like this

supermav 22 Sep 2009 9:06 PM

Dray,

    What planet are you on? You seriously are in your own little make believe world, lol...

Here is the weather stats for 9/19 & 9/20, What rain ? Maybe your tears from all you losing wager's..

Sept 19, 2009:

Max Temp: 17.7 °C

Min Temp: 8.9 °C

Mean Temp: 13.3 °C

Precip Accumulation: 0 mm  

Sept 20, 2009:

Max Temp: 19.9 °C

Min Temp: 10.4 °C

Mean Temp: 15.2 °C

Precip Accumulation: 0 mm

Dray, You sure add some needed comedy relief to this blog, thx...

Greg J. 22 Sep 2009 9:08 PM

Firm ground Draynay, get your facts straight. She ran them down like a freight train from the back of the pack

mburry 22 Sep 2009 9:26 PM

Guys: He talked for a week about how Bribon was gonna crush Ventura. After she blew him away he doesnt bring it up. Now, he complains about fake rain. Wow.

As for those of you who dont like Baffert, Im not sure why. He is opinionated but not in a boastful way. If he comes off as egotistical to you on TV, you are reading it wrong. He has a good sense of humor. He's a class guy and he actually has a personality, unlke others I've met. He's great for the sport and one of the best who ever lived.

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 9:27 PM

While I have been impressed with Zensational I do think that his 3 G1 wins are a little weak for the G1 level as I do not think he has beaten another G1 winner.  The Sprint is a very tough race and his greeness would be a major concern for me, especially after being on or near such a brutal pace against legitimate G1, G2 winners.  As much respect as I have for BB the layoff would be a major concern as well due to the demanding nature of the sprint and the fact that the race sets up perfectly for Munnings who is prepping next week.  While I like a fresh horse a 10 or 12 week break with no race is asking a lot of anyhorse going 6 panels let alone a 3yrold.

drewclearwhenroused 22 Sep 2009 9:29 PM

the bet is, if you choose to accept it....

Zensational wins (under any circumstance, DQ, act of GOD, etc...), I make amends publicly on THIS BLOG, and bow to the Handicapping Guru that is Jason....I win (which means Zensational finishes THIRD or worse), then I get to co-moderate THIS BLOG for a week!

great topic, hope you accept!

rick 22 Sep 2009 9:32 PM

JS, thanks for a nice piece on the Breeders' Cup and not some hypothetical race between all-time greats. Also, nice picks with Ventura (tackling males off a long layoff, very brave) and Marsh Side.

cat thief 22 Sep 2009 9:32 PM

Rick: Sorry, I dont need you to "bow" to me. That doesnt interest me. I'd rather have your money. Or better yet, how about: you win, you get to write a guest blog. I win, you donate $50 to a charity of my choice. Either that, or bet me straight up like Dray is doing. That's the best I can do. Your the one who called me out. You know the saying; put up or....

Cat Thief: Thank you. Marsh Side was a tough DQ but I also liked Just As Well, as you know, so had a little on him as a backup. My real money came on Condemned though. He is fast!

jshandler 22 Sep 2009 9:37 PM

Rhoward- is bashing the East Coast with nothing but irrational statements....the last 10 winners of the sprint

2000- Kona Gold- Ca

2001- Squirtle Squirt EC

2002- Orientate EC

2003- Cajun Beat Midwest

2004- Speightstown EC

2005- Silver Train EC

2006- Thors Echo CA

2007&08- Midnite Lute EC/CA

Midnite Lute had more graded wins on the EC than in CA so to call him a CA horse because of his trainer is a bit misleading but even with him winning the last 2 renewals well I don't understand your argument.  

drewclearwhenroused 22 Sep 2009 9:40 PM

Silver Train (that Belmont freak), Speightstown, and Cajun Beat...a threepeat for east-coast, '06 thru '04 respectively.

cat thief 22 Sep 2009 9:41 PM

Zensational ran against some less than stellar fields.....the way he was bet down preoves it, but he didn't disappoint.....He won every race very easily and I bet there was lots left in the tank if one of them would have stood up and challenged him.....Even in the Triple Bend, which at 7-F might be a little longer than his best distance, he won geared down by a length with a 105 Beyer....In the O'Brien he clearly was in workout mode....They can fire whoever they want at him this year, on those west coast tracks they will clearly be running for second money.

LAZMANNICK 22 Sep 2009 9:43 PM

your handicapping leaves something to be desired, your counter-offer however is genius! I accept, and will follow the blog faithfully while waiting for the cup. Good Luck my friend!

rick 22 Sep 2009 9:45 PM

I believe you made Baffert's quote quite clear, he said he was talking about raw talent. He didn't say those horses were his all time favorites to train or his favorite horses period. Read, Read Read, people.

Jack Shinar wrote an article about Ventura on 9/20 and updated it 9/22. In that story, he describes how Ventura ran second last year in a yielding turf and Gomez said "definetly, the soft ground hurt her chances".

Where does Draynay get his misinformation from? Does he wear a Beanie cap with an aluminum foil antenna? Maybe someone should check it out, poor guy might be getting zapped by aliens with bad intentions.  

Dona 22 Sep 2009 9:49 PM

Just as Well was my single in the pick three that started that race and I used your Ventura, but that maiden who hadn't won in 25 races beat me in that middle race. I don't think any of those top 4 want too see Gio P again this year, so we'll get another crack at 'em in the international.

PS I was wrong on the east coast years, forgot Thors Echo. should be 05-03.

cat thief 22 Sep 2009 9:58 PM

Nice post Jason!  I think Zensational is a fantastic horse! And I really like Bob from all I've seen and heard from him (don't know him personally unfortunately). I can't understand why people are being negative about him - and like usual probably have never met him.  I also don't understand why every post about a horses performance these days leads back to the "haven't beaten anything" talk.  These animals have no control over who they race.  But they give their all just to be bashed by some who apparently have nothing better to do....?  He has turned in good times while facing older horses very early in the season and carried a reasonable weight.  (Just like Rachel and her times and Ruffian and her times....) Guess there are some people who are just going to be negative no matter what the facts show and that is really a bummer.  Too bad those people don't go by the old saying - if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

Racingfan 22 Sep 2009 10:02 PM

Cali sprinters have been at or near the top of American Racing foe some time--even Cali BRED Sprinters! But I do think winning at Santa Anita on the lead will be a tall task...NEXT year look out, but I, too, will be betting against the beast on the pro ride...as for Ventura going 1:32 FLAT on SOFT ground???...C'mon, Dray, Ventura is tops, at least in THIS Hemi, at a mile/turf, when she puts it all together--look out!...I just hope it's not so hot this year, the '03 and '08 Cups were SO HOT!!!...Also I wish the Breeders Cup was ONE day---have some nice stakes races on Friday for a warm up--but bring the big guns (the fillies!) out on Saturday where they belong!

Matthew W 22 Sep 2009 10:05 PM

But yeah, Jason, three Gr I's vs older--one from a gruelling rail pace battle at 7 fur...and, yes, the latest one vs "easy" for Gr I...but he's a three year old! And synthetics have not been to kind to speed horses--he still gets the $$....At SOME point, ya gotta say he's "legit"!

Matthew W 22 Sep 2009 10:09 PM

Jason you are right about Bob Baffert. We nurses have a feel for people and my sense of him is that he is a very nice man and good to his horses. What you see is what you pretty much get with him. He tells it like he sees it but always in a courteous way. I like him. If he says Zensational is good and getting better, than he is.

Paula Higgins 22 Sep 2009 10:12 PM

I didn't know Squirtle Squirt was an East Coast Horse--I saw him run at Fairplex, of all places! Just because a West Coast guy kicks booty back there--it doesn't mean he's East Coast!

Matthew W 22 Sep 2009 10:19 PM

Greg J -

Thank you for the mention of our losses this week - Haveaheavenlytime, the great El Prado and Summer Squall (damsire of Summer Bird).  I know this blog isn't about them, but they surely deserve to be honored.

As for Zensational, I find it hard to believe that he can be beaten so long as he stays healthy.  Watch his works & races at Larry Zap's Youtube channel - he's breathtaking.  

sherpa 22 Sep 2009 10:26 PM

JASON

I respect   your opinion regarding BB,but unlike many on TVG that thinks he's "the second coming" I don't respect his attitude and I'm telling you   for a fact the individual I know  thinks he has a problem w/his over inflated ego should. He's had contact with him. I'll never say he's not a great trainer cause he is,but his few "down years" should have been a serious  reminder to what anyone in this business can experience. He's anything but humble! Oh,BTW I loved his line last month"I didn't stagger into the HOF". Enough said!

Mike Relva 22 Sep 2009 10:41 PM

There is one thing consistent about these blogs, is the fact that Draynay will stick his oversized foot in his immensly large mouth to satisfy his huge ego. He never misses an opportunity to diss the California horses, and show us just how ignorant he really is.

Good article Jason, thanks for sharing...........

Deacon 22 Sep 2009 10:46 PM

GREG J

I was told recently by a reliable source that Lava Man was coming for certain to Old Friends. Tell me,where did you hear this?

Mike Relva 22 Sep 2009 10:49 PM

PAULA HIGGINS

Do you think he's "good to his horses" when War Emblem ran in all three legs of the Triple Crown with bone chips??????????????

Mike Relva 22 Sep 2009 10:51 PM

Seem to recall a certain boistrus blogger was all over Music Note to beat Zenyatta last year---only to go right to the "she didn't handle the track" nonsense after she got beat---I thought she ran lights out/will be playing her this year, ie she handled the track just fine!

Matthew W 22 Sep 2009 10:55 PM

Bob is an okay guy. Much improved in the last several years, grew up like some on here need to do.

Straightforward and says things people might not want to hear but tells it like it is.

He was talking about athletic ability and raw talent. Not sure why people take exception to that.

He always has said Silver Charm was his FAVORITE horse, based on how hard he tried, his heart.

Who do you guys want mentioned on these blogs? ANY top trainer talks like this. What do you want them to act like? They are always high on their horses, if not they should get the he** OUT of the game.

Like another one who also gets bashed all the time said about himself, Baffert and others who have been there and done it all: "We've been hired, we've been fired, we've been right and we've been wrong. But we believe in the way we do things." Even the quiet unassuming guys have a different persona when they're really focused on the game.

Then you get a guy like Chip Wooley who is riding a shooting star, is showing that he is a super nice guy and you beat him up.

Whether some of you like it or not, the trainer knows these horses, their abilities and talents much better than anyone who doesn't live with them every day, all day.

They really can't win, because they get called arrogant if they refuse to talk to people, then egomaniacal publicity hounds if they DO talk to them.

Should it go back to the old days when they never talked to anyone? Figure as long as their owners are happy that's all that matters?

Tim G 22 Sep 2009 11:42 PM

Laz, wasn't it you and Ted who labeled Dray the Liar?

Well Jason just provided proof positive.

DN will say anything to make a point no matter how ludicrous.  We are all able to read the form and results and SEE that the past performances show the turf was FIRM and the weather was CLEAR.

We read that Jason picked Ventura and Dray not only picked Bribon he raved on like it was the greatest pick EVER. Don't always see eye to eye with Jason, but he had a pretty good weekend.

Kind of like my kid said, funny to see Dray try to give some credibility to his inane remarks by calling guys like Bob and Wayne by their first names like a friend or something.

Tim G 22 Sep 2009 11:52 PM

I saw Midnight Lute (the BRUTE as I call him) run at Saratoga and also the Breeders Cup at Monmouth. If Baffert puts Zen is his class that is all I have to know. Lute was an absolute powerhouse running down the stretch.

As far as horses that are beating nothing...if a horse runs numbers completely off the charts and beats nothing does that take away from his greatness? I am exaggerating here and just trying to make a point, but certainly there comes a point where a horse is running in such a stratosphere that who he beats does not matter as they are all in the race as much as a prop on a stage set!

KenfromRI 23 Sep 2009 12:04 AM

Dray, sit down take a deep breath, and repeat after me..."I'm a decent guy and don't have to build my self respect up on some silly blog"  Repeat that a few hundred times and maybe you will gain some semblance of reality and self worth and stop having to live in your dream world.

KenfromRI 23 Sep 2009 12:09 AM

      You know what kills me?  When trainer's agree to talk to Jason and come on here and give some insight and knowledge through their eyes and then the gratitude shown to them is that some feel the need to bash them and belittle them. Case in point, First comment posted here by you know who:

"I forgot exactly what happend?"  Are you kidding me ?  Spill it Bob !

Another example, After the leading trainer at the Spa this summer, Linda Rice, Did an interview, One of the first comments posted by you know who:

"Can you tell me how many drug violations she has had in the last 5 years ?"

I mean, really, Like it has already been said here, If these juvenile comments persist and you were a Trainer, Would you grant an interview to Jason?  I just wish everyone would think a little before they made a comment...

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 12:24 AM

Thank you for the interview with Bob Baffert.  I do Like Zensational, have been watching his races and he is fast. If he is not the first under the wire it will be a close one by a nose or head.

Looking forward to more trainer interviews:)

silverscrngirl 23 Sep 2009 6:11 AM

You have to take with a grain of salt when trainers say "the best I ever had". It usually depends on who they are training for at the time. The top trainers are also very good politicians.

MikeM 23 Sep 2009 7:25 AM

Greg, you're right, we lost 3 great horses...I'm old, I remember them young, they're young again, now.

I think Baffert is great...when he first became a major player he was a TV draw all unto himself...when he, Zito and Lucas were winning everything it was a lot of fun...3 true characters.

da3hoss 23 Sep 2009 7:52 AM

Jason,

I see "the liar" draynay just can't help himself when he opens his mouth. He must have spilled his drink over the monitor creating an illusion of rain in his feeble mind when he watched the replay of his can't miss pick getting thrashed by Ventura.

I find it laughable that he compares "California" horses to AAA ball then only has the kahona's to give you 2:1 on your choice when he gets the rest of the best in the world against Zensational. That right there shows he has no confidence in his own B.S.

"dope", joke, whatever, it all describes the crap he spews here. When RA beat older males ONCE it was the end all to be all in his mind. Zensational does it multiple times and he's AAA caliber? I think another draynay ban is warrented, this time for life.

draynot 23 Sep 2009 8:42 AM

Okay-I'm a Baffert fan from way back - but he's on my bad list now for not including Silver Charm on his top list!!!  Guess it's easy to forget your first Derby winner - or the horse you won your first Dubai World Cup with....you know - your first champion!  grrrrrr

Kelly E. 23 Sep 2009 9:43 AM

Great interview as always Jason. Don't get too cranked over the comments of others otherwise you'll have a stroke by the time Keeneland opens.

Alex 23 Sep 2009 10:12 AM

Bob Baffert is a breath of fresh air in the sport. So is Lukas. They might be a little controversial, walk and talk with a little swagger, but they are serious trainers. They bring good attention to our sport.

Belmont Rick 23 Sep 2009 10:23 AM

DrewClear, yes, Squirtle Squirt prepped in the East, but, he won at Fairplex, in what I belive to be, the West.

Why do so many miss the question asked of BB?  He was not asked to name the greatest horses he has trained.  He named the most raw talent, he had witnessed, or as he said, the ones with "Wow" moves.  Silver Charm developed into a true champion.  A good friend of mine and a fellow player, loves to use the phrase "On the engine" - Everytime he says this, I think of those great head to head, going 24s, duels by Silver Charm and Free House.  Yes, they were definitely, "on the engine".

berttheclock 23 Sep 2009 10:45 AM

Jason: You can't shoo Dray away; he's your "bell cow". You have job security as long as Dray is able to spew his ignorance on a weekly basis where intelligent horse fans are forced to comment in droves on his nonsense (how about last week--"How can anyone rate Secretariat higher than Affirmed?"). As long as he posts, common sense isn't very common.

Dray is the "Cabbage Patch Doll" of your blog: Everyone else looks good next to him.

steve from st louis 23 Sep 2009 11:04 AM

I think we will all just have to wait and see what happens on the track. In the last race, Zensational and Fab Strike ran almost identical fractions and  times, but like Baffert said, he has not gotten into the beast yet. Fab Strike, who is by far one of my favorite sprinters named other than Lost in the Fog, would not be able to beat Zen on a synthetic. This horse is a freak

Billy's Empire 23 Sep 2009 11:06 AM

One thing I will go out on a limb and say is that the BC Juvenile Turf Winner will be by Kitten's Joy!!

Billy's Empire 23 Sep 2009 11:10 AM

I think Baffert's 'top five' comment was more to stroke Mr. Zayat than a real reflection of just where he ranks the horse. Like a lot of racing celebrity endorsements, I can smell the insincerity from here. Still, I like the horse, and am following his career in spite of his connections.

No question that Baffert has got something there, but as someone already mentioned, that horse is by Unbridled's Song, and for that reason alone it might be dangerous to single him in a pick 6 ticket even if he appears the best. But I wish him nothing but health and luck in the BC, and hopefully he will stay sound long enough for us to see what he can do on dirt as well.

Zensational is an interesting horse, but he has a lot ot prove before I rank him over durable lights out sprinter Fabulous Strike or streak of lightening Midnight Lute. I thought he looked like the one good horse in each of his three G 1's, but I also saw that they didn't need everything he had to win them either. So I'm watching, but I need to see him tested by great horses.

And I think Fabulous Strike's connections are foolish to even consider a round 2 on the ProRide at SA. What for? The only thing that last year's BC could have proved to them is that their horse doesn't care the least little bit for the ProRide.

Mary in VT 23 Sep 2009 11:17 AM

Speaking of the "Beast":

Zensational

Your Comment: Scary Fast!

Date: September 23, 2009

Track: SANTA ANITA PARK

Distance: Four Furlongs

Time: 47:00 Breezing

Track Condition: Fast

Surface: All Weather Track

Rank: 1/11

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 11:25 AM

Mike Relva

I think you should cut BB some slack with regards to War Emblem.  He was purchased by our oil rich friends just before the Derby specifically for a Triple Crown campaign.....I bet even if BB wanted to back off with him he would have been over-ruled....anyway, have a good dday.

LAZMANNICK 23 Sep 2009 11:41 AM

Tim G

I don't think we can honestly call him a liar....well, maybe we can.....I still think he lives in a delusional world…..probably believes that Mighty Mouse is still going to save the world and every time he goes outside it is raining…..what’s that saying…..it only rains in sunny Toronto…..LOL

LAZMANNICK 23 Sep 2009 11:46 AM

Draynay

You still don’t get it…….I said that Bribon is a top miler and has a shot at a BC mile race…..but on dirt or synthetics, not turf……If he’s as good as you say he is on turf why is he not racing on it that much?

LAZMANNICK 23 Sep 2009 11:51 AM

Im a big fan of Silverbulletday and Midnight Lute.. but to put them in a class without Silver Charm & Charasmatic is simply rediculous & a smack in the face to two incredible horses. Silver Charm & Charasmatic vaulted Bob Baffert to the top of the thoroughbred world & he should have the respect to credit them for that.

Lady Ruffian 23 Sep 2009 12:19 PM

Excuse me Real Quiet I got my Derby winners mixed up! hahah. its early & i havent finnished my coffee

Happy Wednesday

Lady Ruffian 23 Sep 2009 12:20 PM

Dray,

Your a dope. It never rained in Toronto for one and two Garrett Gomez says that Ventura prefers Firm ground as oppossed to soft ground because of her explosive turn of foot. So you've got fake rain and soft ground that Ventura perfers. Both way off comments.

Jason,

As far as Zensational goes, I was impressed with him when he broke his maiden at Santa Anita this winter. And the horse is visually getting better and better. Like he's figuring out how to harness his speed and kick for him instead of just being a run off. Although I will say this, Fatal Bullet will be pressing him hard when the gates open in the BC. I remember that BC Sprint race last year and the two things that I took out of that race are these. Fabulous Strike did not look like the same kind of horse on the Pro-Ride than on dirt. I bet him that day and he was just spinning his wheels. I expect him to do the same this year IF he goes and will be a total play against for me. Secondly, Fatal Bullet is tough on the synthetics and he will be tough to shrugg off on the front end for Zensational. If Zensational draws inside of Fatal Bullet in the BC, I think he gets cooked. If he draws outside, he's shown the ability to rate, and should be on Fatal Bullet's flank all the way around. I think these two are the top 2 sprinters on synthetics in the country right now. I'm wondering whose talented enough on the Pro-Ride to stalk these two and run them down. I'll be closely watching the Turfway Park Sprint this weekend. Even though its restricted to 3 year olds, that race always seems to produce a true contender in the BC Sprint. Reraise, Cajun Beat, Fatal Bullet to name a few.

The Rock 23 Sep 2009 12:40 PM

Matthew W,

With regards to the weather, it was in the low 90's for last years cup but interestingly enough the next week which was the first week of November, the Temp dropped 20 degrees. Once can always hope. I know I'm ready for the winter living here in So Cal.

The Rock 23 Sep 2009 12:57 PM

Laz, actually I think he believes HE is Mighty Mouse.

For the lady who said Bob was saying that to stroke Zayat?

Doubt it. He's had others that belong to Zayat yet never was this high on one. 3 of the 5 belong/belonged to his 4 long time clients and a couple of his best friends, but who could dispute those 3? One belongs to a deceased owner who was also a close friend, who's he trying to impress?

ALL of these guys get that question and answer it differently than one might expect. They THEN go on to explain what sets each of them apart and WHAT they are evaluating them on. THAT is a trainers right. Their evaluation of THEIR horses means something, same as an owner. The rest are just opinions.

I think the three guys who brought this game to the public forefront represented it and promoted it with their own unique style.

The naysayers and people who love to trash them have always been around. Only fans didn't have the avenues, access and anonymity they do now.

Do you all want this access to be limited based on this trashing of people you really don't know?

Like some of the oldtimers and most respected in the game have said, for example Carl Nafzger, most of the negativity is just pure ENVY.

Tim G 23 Sep 2009 1:00 PM

Dear people who now feel the need to growl at and never forgive BB for not "picking" Silver Charm...please reread the context:

"JS: I saw that TVG interview when you said he was one of the top three horses you've ever trained. That took me by surprise.

BB: Well, what I meant by that is pure, raw talent."

da3hoss 23 Sep 2009 1:00 PM

No more talk of Ventura running a sensational race.

iT WAS NOT SENATIONAL.It was a product of track layout-she ran her usually race(97-99 beyer)

Let her win the Breeders Cup filly sprint where she belongs

Mike relva should stop bashing of Bob Baffert- Keep your comments to yourself for your own good

steve s 23 Sep 2009 1:05 PM

GET REAL YOU GUYS...DO ALL YOUR MOUTHING OFF AT THE WINDOWS....THAT'S WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS.

JASON...YOUR A BREATH OF FRESH AIR  FOR HORSE RACING, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

FRANK .P. 23 Sep 2009 1:06 PM

Rick: Call into question my analysis all you want, but the fact remains, horses "sired by US" (is that better?), as a whole tend to be unsound.  You want proof, just look at the list we have had so far this year with Midshipman, Dunkirk, Old Fashioned, etc.  BTW, it looks like I made another mistake by typing "Unbridled Song", but I guess you didn't catch that one.  You know my Dad use to always say, "if you come to a battle of wits with a knife, you will lose" so put the knife away and try to say something that has meaning.  We already have a draynay on this blog so get off his jock.  There's only room for one.

    As for the whole "stroking Zayat's ego" thing as to why Baffert possibly made that comment, I'm not buying that.  How many horses has/does Baffert train for Mr. Zayat?  Baffert still trains a few for Mike Pegram and there's no mention of Dubai WC winner Captain Steve or Derby/Preakness winner Real Quiet.

Curlin 23 Sep 2009 1:08 PM

 It's always amazing to me that when someone who is really good at what they do walks and talks with confidence they are called arrogant. If any of you trained horses half as well as Baffert has you would walk with a swagger and speak with confidence too.

 Jason, Great interview!! Refreshing to talk about horses that are actually going to race against each other than all the nonsense about a race that is never going to happen! Re: Zen and RA.

 Draynay, Think before you type!! Did you really believe that nobody on this blog would know that the ground was firm? There were no excuses for Bribon other than the fact he got his butt handed to him by a girl. Everytime you lose {which is often} you have some lame excuse and now you resort to lying about the weather. Pathetic.

longwaytomay 23 Sep 2009 1:32 PM

Yes, Citation, Silver Charm should be at the top of his list!!

Adele Maxon 23 Sep 2009 1:49 PM

Relax guys and gals... geez.  I drove 1800 miles and had numerous sales meetings including a 2 day expo standing on concrete for 8 hours a day.  I got home last night dead tired and felt like picking a fight with Jason.  I read what I posted last night and it doesn't make any sense to me either. Lol.  To be honest it just felt good to call Jason a dope. Greg are you still talking about Zensational ? You and Jason are bird of a feather.

Draynay 23 Sep 2009 1:51 PM

Zensational is extremely talented, anyone who denies that is being plain ignorant.  But I don't think he's better than Fabulous Strike or Midnight Lute.  I've never seen Zensational in person, but I've seen Fabulous Strike three times, and Midnight Lute twice.  He really would have to be a beast to defeat either one of them.  If what Baffert thinks is true that he will be better on the dirt, it would make for a great race to see him against Fab. Strike.  I hope they both end up in the Breeders Cup Sprint.  Fabulous Strike isn't quite as good on synthetics as he is on dirt, but he still puts in a great run everytime.  Would be a great showdown.

Brian A. 23 Sep 2009 2:20 PM

So, Dray, you're a salesman, pushing product at an expo? How do you do that, with your shut-down knowledge of what you're selling  or your ability to charm and relate to people? From what I read, I can't believe you are capable of either.

steve from st louis 23 Sep 2009 2:31 PM

TO CURLIN

Quit knocking Unbridled Song- his runners run real real real hard when they do race

steve s 23 Sep 2009 2:32 PM

Mike Relva,

     It really disgusts me to post this, I was hoping I was wrong, But, From This morning:

Lava Man

Date: September 23, 2009

Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK

Distance: Three Furlongs

Time: 36:00 Handily

Track Condition: Fast

Surface: All Weather Track

Rank: 1/24

A complete Joke.....

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 2:41 PM

Love how he ALWAYS has an excuse why he does these things? If it was once on this blog, maybe. But it was repeated and now that everyone is telling you that they back Jason and see what a dumb comment that was, you try to play it off as planned.

WHY would you pick a fight with a total stranger? Wait, you do it all the time. NOW who posts nonsense?

You also, like the rest on here condemning someone (again, see Hal Wiggins, Chip Wooley, Linda Rice, John Shirrefs, Larry Jones) comment about someone you/they know virtually nothing about.

Curlin, Mike co-owned Midnight Lute along with Karl and Paul (as I said before, a great guy and friend of the namesake), also Mike owned Silverbulletday and Bob's very good friend Hal Earnhardt owns Indian Blessing (and Bulldogger).

The Pegram, Watson, Weitman trio also own Lookin at Lucky. Read Bob's comments about that one after the Futurity. He tends to get excited about one winning and predicts great things. We all do. Wayne after Dublin winning the Hopeful?  It's part of their charm, that they can STILL get high on a horse after all these years.

Tim G 23 Sep 2009 3:10 PM

Zensational so far has been sensational.  But I'd have to see him beat Fabulous Strike at 6 furlongs on the dirt before I'd call him the better horse.  Based off the BC last year, I don't think Fabulous Strike cares for the synthetic.

Pollas 23 Sep 2009 3:15 PM

Just got home from a LONNNNGGGG day at University.

Last night? What are you 95? That was posted yesterday late afternoon.

I think more like your 'meetings' were a flub and you needed your attention fix.

Then when Jason made you look like the fool you are, called you the dope you are, you did the same thing you always do. Copycat and just say the same thing back to the person. I'm waiting to hear nonnie,nonnie boo boo. Like I hear from the 6 year old little cuz of mine.

Shawn P 23 Sep 2009 3:27 PM

Greg is still talking about Zensational because that's what this blog is about.

The title isn't Draynay is The Worst Handicapper Ever, that topic is too obvious and has been evident forever and discussed to death. Or it could be Let's take potshots at Bob Baffert. But it's not.

Take a nap, pay attention or wait for a subject you can speak intelligently on.

Oh wait, now there's a pleasant thought, never have to hear from you again.

Shawn P 23 Sep 2009 3:35 PM

Lady Ruffian:  Charismatic was trained by DWL. But I agree that Silver Charm should have been at the top.

Adele Maxon 23 Sep 2009 3:38 PM

Dray,

    Your quote: " Greg are you still talking about Zensational ? You and Jason are bird of a feather."  The topic of this BLOG Dray? ZENSATIONAL!!!, I give up on you, As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as Stupid does...."

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 3:44 PM

Adele, funny thing is that I read a story from a well-known publication that gave Bob credit for training Charismatic too and not Wayne. Probably because Bob and Bev Lewis owned them both and the guy didn't research. Our Lady Ruffian just hadn't had that morning cuppa. LOL

Actually I see where Bobby is coming from, Silver Charm had heart, try and was sensational. But raw talent? No he laid it down and gave it his all every single time he ran.

steve, a product that requires the utmost sincerity, trust, honesty and scientific knowledge. Not that he has those either. Hey maybe used cars? The clunkers not destroyed?

Tim G 23 Sep 2009 3:51 PM

Greg J,

    Why are you disgusted, this is so huge for racing. LM was one of the best Cali horses ever. If he came back like he was in 06, then why not let him run? This is a big blessing for racing the way i see it. Why are you disgusted by it?

LDP 23 Sep 2009 3:56 PM

Adele Maxon - i know. i had mistyped because i had just finnished reading about Summer Squall being euthenised which made me think of charasmatic... and i typed him instead of r.q.! im on the west coast it was way too early for me to be posting! lol

Lady Ruffian 23 Sep 2009 3:58 PM

Changing the subject, just a bit, but what do you all think of the return of Lava Man?

ABZ 23 Sep 2009 4:04 PM

Curlin,

If you could list 10-15 unsound runners by Unbridled's Song, that didn't race THIS YEAR, I'd give you a bit of credit. Not that I'm looking to discredit you, just noticed your mistake. So please, search through your memory bank and come up with just a few US runners that were unsound, WHOSE NAMES DON'T STICK OUT BECAUSE THEY WERE SOME OF THE MOST NOTABLE HORSES OF '09. looks like you went to Wikipedia, or freshly re-read a few recent articles. doesn't take a smart handicapper to spout off a few famous names....what about the hundreds of runners you've never heard of, are they unsound?

rick 23 Sep 2009 4:24 PM

Poor Draynay, some village is missing it's idiot..............

Deacon 23 Sep 2009 4:31 PM

I am very surprised at the news about Lava Man. Greg J., do you or anyone else know if this is being done because the horse is truly bored on the farm, or because the owners crave excitement/money?  It would almost have to be excitement because I would imagine the animal's treatment cost a fortune.  

But why wouldn't you just buy another horse?  Forty-six races, 8 years old, Lava Man has done enough!!  He has had a complete career with success on every surface.  What did happen with whatever retirement home he was supposed to go to?  Maybe he would have been less bored at such a facility.

On topic:  Zensational is a standout, but after him, when did Calif. ever have such a shallow male sprint division?

Pam S. 23 Sep 2009 4:42 PM

I will be very interested to see how Lava Man returns. I trust that if the horse wasn't doing awesome, they wouldn't even try. But it sounds like he responded extremely well to stem cell therapy and is better than he ever has been. "Ankles of a 3 year old" and so on.

If he comes back well and is able to be competitive, that would be great information for others considering the "investment" of stem cell therapy to treat arthritis or soft tissue injures in their racehorses (I don't know what was wrong with Lava Man, I'm assuming arthritis because they said his "ankles" were bad).

I think it's also important to note that with that expensive therapy, he probably feels 100% better now that his joints don't hurt. If he loves racing and having a "job", and he feels good while doing it, what's the problem?

Horses live a long time--Lava Man was looking forward to 15 years sitting in a field. Many horses find that boring after living such an active life with so much attention.

I hope it all works out well, and that the success of this unique therapy will encourage more use of it. Many, many horses suffer the debilitating effects of arthritis and if this therapy ever becomes widespread and more affordable, it will be a great thing. I'm also curious to see how long the "fix" holds and whether you can repeat the therapy indefinitely to keep the horse's joints healthy for their whole life.

It's amazing that horses are the benefactors before people! But so it goes.

nonnonheinous 23 Sep 2009 5:35 PM

Jason, Dray, and et al: You folks are cracking me up! I enjoy the heck out of the banter.  Anyone who takes Dray's comments seriously, well, come on folks. It's just Dray.  Besides, every discussion needs an antagonist.

Guess we'll know after they RUN the BC sprint who is right.  I won't make my picks until race day.  I cashed a big win ticket on Richard's Kid in the Classic, and hope to cash a few more during the BC races!  Say what you want about the BC races this year, they are still going to provide a ton of great racing!  Can't wait!

Runfast159 23 Sep 2009 5:43 PM

LDP, I'm not disgusted, but I'm worried. Lava Man is eight, and they did an awful lot of work on his ankles.

He was my wallpaper on our old computer, and I completely love him. Here's to him staying safe and happy.

Tiznowbaby 23 Sep 2009 6:21 PM

In full agreement w/ Pam S. about these Cali sprinters. I would give all the credit in the world to a Zensational that had beaten Idiot Proof, Street Boss, Surf Cat, In Summation, Carthage, etc....but since there was no horse of that ilk in ANY of those fields, I'll patiently wait for the chance to beat him at SA. Mr. Baffert has every right to pump up his horse's credentials, but when should a handicapper listen to that? Most serious players will tell you that a trainer is only in the know when it comes to HIS/HER horse....how would Baffert know all the ins and outs of any of his competetors? In short, he wouldn't know any more than YOU GUYS would, because he's busy w/ his stable.

As for Lava Man,

I always wondered why they didn't give him a shot at 6 1/2 or 7 furlongs. This horse, even when beaten at longer distances (in some very classy races mind you), always had the lead at the top of the stretch, and rarely gave it up without a fight. Would love to see this legend going shorter....

That is all.

rick 23 Sep 2009 6:34 PM

Oh yeah, forgot

I laughed for ten minutes after reading this:

I've met and talked to BB at several racing events including at the Derby victory party in the Derby Museum when he won with War Emblem.  He was nothing but a gentlemen.  I've also met the owner of this horse on a couple of occasions.  I will never bet on one of his horses as long as I live.

Ted from LA 22 Sep 2009 9:05 PM

great post for any who caught it!

rick 23 Sep 2009 6:46 PM

Since there is no blog at the time I just have to voice my opinion on the story of the day.  Lava Man is back on the work tab.  It really irriates me because no matter how much money he made for his owners they are greedy and want to try to push him some more.  Where are the men who said that it was time for him to retire and that they wanted Michael Blowden to have him but not until he was completely healed and would have a comfortable life. HA to that one.  How much did the horse have to make for them that they want to put him back in the races for more and then have something really drastic happen to him.  Do what you said you were going to do, don't do a two-faced for your greed and not the benefit of the horse.  This is why at times I hate racing and vow I will never watch again, but yet I come back and  nothing changes.  What a sad state of affairs racing is in. No wonder they don't pick up anyone new as racing is slowly strangling themselves and driving it deeper into the ground.

lobieb 23 Sep 2009 6:52 PM

Pam S. 2003. I think the best one that year was Bluesthestandard or Captain Squire.

The Rock 23 Sep 2009 6:54 PM

Where can I get a futures bet on Lava Man for the Sprint or Dirt (Synth) Mile?  I got beat by Da Hoss' nose a few years back, I figure a small saver bet now might save me money later.

cat thief 23 Sep 2009 7:32 PM

Hay Greg

Dray's comments are just like a box of chocolates......you never know what stupid thing he's going to say next.

LAZMANNICK 23 Sep 2009 7:49 PM

RE: Lava Man,

    I have no problem with horses running until eleven or twelve if they are sound and never had serious issues, IMO, This is all about EGO and GREED, with this owner, Mr. Kenly.  They are using Lava Man as a guinea pig, If he is succesful for a few races, then he will reap the benefits involved with the succesful Stem Cell work done to LM.  This horse will NOT be the same, by the time he hits the track, It will be a year and a half since his last race.  I just do not see any upside for him returning, Everything he has earned is ALL profit since they claimed him for 50K.  He will not win a graded stakes at nine, even if he does, It is a mute point, they already stated he will not race in claimers or lesser races.  So what is the point?  I will return to EGO and GREED...One could argue a two or three year old is in just as much danger, hence a misstep or an accident, But my argument is, Why risk that chance?  They are saying all the politically correct things, IE., He loves to run, He wasn't happy off the track, Etc...SO WHAT!, He will have to retire someday and learn to adapt,  Find him something to keep him busy.  If he is as fit as he was at three, then GREAT, He can enjoy his life off the track perfectly HEALTHY, He deserves it....

Also, How they treated Mr. Blowen was pure disrespect, Just ten days ago this owner told him he would be at Old Friends in October, This after stroking him along since April.  This guy was just using Mr. Blowen as a pawn, Buying time all along to see if Lava Man took to the Stem Cell Therapy.  Why not be up front? Mr. Blowen was never told of a chance of Lava Man returning to the track.  Mr. O'Neil is the only saving grace in this equation, I hope he stands by his word and does right by Lava man, Not like that weasel of an Owner, Mr.Kenly...

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 8:07 PM

Runfast159... I love you too! lol. I can't believe we dedicated a entire blog to a California horse.  Another poly specialist.  Yawn... I am getting tired again.  Shawn P me a salesman ?  I guess but I was at the show to support my Distributor and answer technical questions about my product.  By the way are we still talking about Zensational ?

Draynay 23 Sep 2009 8:16 PM

When I read Lava Man was back on the workout tab, my heart soared. I am not one of Lava Man's adoring fans, following him as I do from the midwest, but these horses are bred to run and Doug wouldn't keep him in training if he wasn't displaying  much happiness while working. The horse has been too good to his people to be "pressed" into service. I'm 100% sure without ever having a conversation with the connections that they'll do what Lava Man tells them, not the other way around. If he can't keep good company, they'll send him home. Cali racing needs some good news, not who "keyed" whose  car.

steve from st louis 23 Sep 2009 8:19 PM

steve s:

Ventura got a 108 Beyer for the Woodbine Mile. That's a career best for her and is the fastest Beyer on turf in North America ALL YEAR.  Ventura ran a monster race this past Sunday. For that matter, Ferneley was extremely well too, finishing 3 lengths of the 3rd place horse.  

The problem for Ventura if she were pointed to the Breeders Cup Mile is Goldikova.  Goldikova is up there with Miesque and Lure as the best turf milers of the last 30 years.  I have no problem with Ventura pointing for the Breeders Cup Filly and Mare Sprint again.

GunBow 23 Sep 2009 8:27 PM

Let's see the east try to back some 7 furlong horse down and try to take this one.  Single him along with Looking at Lucky, Zenyatta, and Ventura.  With the exception of Well Armed the west coast form held pretty well on their home track last year.  My advice would be not to bet anything that does not have a race over the synthetic track (unless they are European Invaiders).

Householder 23 Sep 2009 8:35 PM

Mike Relva, I don't know anything about War Emblem running all three legs of the Triple Crown with bone chips. So, is that an absolute fact, and most importantly, is that a deal breaker for running a horse? In other words, are they in pain and subject to further injury if they do run with bone chips? I know human athletes train and compete injured all the time. Some injuries are not deal breakers in sports. They need to be fixed once the season ends and that's it. I do not know enough about horses to give you an answer but I am sure there are other people that blog here who can respond. Bob Baffert does not seem like the kind of guy who would run a horse that was hurting.

Paula Higgins 23 Sep 2009 8:45 PM

"Most physically gifted" does not necessarily mean "best" or "faovrite" just as NOT being the most physically gifted does not necessarily mean the horse was not the trainer's favorite or his "best".

Bob Baffert did not say Silver Charm was not among his 5 best or 5 favorite horses. He simply referenced other horses on the subject of most natural talent. Wasn't Silver Charm known more for his heart and grit than pure speed?  In his autobiography, Gary Stevens did not rank Silver Charm among the 3 most talented horses he had ridden.  On pure physical ability, Stevens rated Point Given, Gentlemen, and In Excess ahead of Silver Charm.  However, Stevens wrote that Silver Charm compensated for any lack of pure speed with heart, intelligence, and consistency.

There have been a number of horses, some largely forgotten, that have had equal or superior ability to horses widely acknowledged as great.  I think a person could make a strong argument, for example, that Formal Gold and Gentlemen were as talented if not more so than Skip Away or Cigar.  Yet, it is Cigar and Skip Away in the Hall of Fame and the Bloodhorse Top 100, not Formal Gold and Gentlemen.  Another example is Candy Ride.  Ron MacAnally swore that Candy Ride was possibly as talented as any horse he had ever trained, right up alongside John Henry.  And while Candy Ride was extremely impressive winning the Pacific Classic and American Handicap, no serious racegoer would rate Candy Ride John Henry's equal as a racehorse.  For, to be "great", a horse must not only possess superior talent, it must also have heart, determination, soundness, intelligence, durability, and consistentcy; in short, a "great" horse must have a resume of accomplishments not just physical ability. While Baffert believes that other horses he has trained have been more physically talented than Silver Charm, I guarantee that he considers Silver Charm among the 5 "best" horses he has had and that Silver Charm is at the top of his list of favorites.    

GunBow 23 Sep 2009 9:25 PM

Hi Tim,

<>In response to """For the lady who said Bob was saying that to stroke Zayat? Doubt it. He's had others that belong to Zayat yet never was this high on one."""

Don't you remember all the breath that Baffert expended telling the world how excited he was about Zayat's Pioneer Of The Nile? That horse was supposed to be the second coming too. And there was all the talk about how beautiful the colt was. I kept looking at him wondering what I was missing. He was 'ok,' even attractive, but he didn't bowl me over on par with the hype job he was getting. And he was supposed to be such a beautiful mover, but I didn't see that either. He strung together a few nice wins in CA, none of which was delivered in commanding style, he showed up in the Derby followed by an inexplicable Preakness, followed by rumors about an injury, followed by retirement. Pfttttttttttttttt. Gone.

The comments about Zensational remind me of the verbal barrage that accompanied POTN - similar to one of those Home Shopping Network salespeople or the late pitchman Billy Mays. I can't get carried away with BB's excitement about the latest colt du jour if I can't lose the feelin' that I am being pitched to vs. witnessing honest fire in the belly for something he believes in heart and soul. There are trainers I believe, and there are trainers I take with a grain of salt.

But sure, he has the right to pitch the horse if his client likes to hear it.

As it happens, I like this horse better than POTN, but he has yet to be proven against top horses, and I refuse to get giggly over him until he does.

Mary in VT 23 Sep 2009 9:32 PM

Thanks for the interview Jason.  I started following horse racing right as Baffert was making the transition from quarter horses to thoroughbreds.  It might be somewhat hard to imagine now, but in the early 90s Baffert was known for his stable of tough, durable veteran sprinters like Gundaghia, Letthebighossroll, Charmonier, and Thirty Slews.  His first national horse was Cavonier, who ran 2nd in the 96' Derby.  Baffert did an excellent job with Cavonier because after the horse was injured in the Belmont, Baffert brought him back from about a 2 year layoff to win a restricted stakes. By then, though, Baffert's career was going through the stratosphere with back-to-back wins in the 97'+98' Derby.  I was a huge fan of Baffert back in the early 90s, and loved horses like Gundaghia and "Thebighoss".  Not saying he is perfect, but I still rate Baffert among my favorite trainers.  

GunBow 23 Sep 2009 9:35 PM

Paula, Baffert bought War Emblem for Prince Salman knowing there were knee and ankle chips. (Silver Charm and Real Quiet also had problems with chips). The main factors are the location of the chip, how the horse's body is responding to the chip and how competitive the horse is.

War Emblem's chips were found in December of his 2YO year during a pre-sale vet exam, so he ran all his pre-Derby races, the ones where he was trained by Bobby Springer, with those chips.

Tiznowbaby 23 Sep 2009 9:42 PM

   I just want to follow up on Lava Man, By accident last night, While talking about Lava Man's situation, Another ex-racer was brought up, "Smokey Stover"(A 750K earner), I will not post his resume, But, I am positive alot of fans here know and remember him, If not they can look up his pedigree.  His former Owner, Harry Aleo(Lost in the Fog) passed away and Smokey's former trainer, Mr. Gilchrist posted Smokey on a canter site for adoption at $600.00.  I commend Mr. Gilchrist for putting him on this site and tending to him. He is arthritic and is not sound to do anything but light riding by children. Since last night the $600.00 was raised and Old Friends and Mr. Blowen decided to take him in, This all happened by accident, This never would have transpired they way it did if not for the discussion involving Lava Man.  I am mentioning this do the fact of its connection to Lava Man.  It is strange how things happen, And how lucky Smokey Stover is to go to Old Friends....That's All, Sorry to stray...

Greg J. 23 Sep 2009 9:42 PM

I would have to agree with Baffert that Zensational is a freak.  I also agree that he will probably be better on dirt.  

While I don't have any problem with Baffert ranking Zensational among the 5 most talented horses he has trained, I, for one, wouldn't rank Zensational among Baffert's top 5 overall horses. While the 3 grade 1s vs. older horses is impressive, the Cali sprint division is definitely down this year(and I should know having lived there from 86'-99').  So, I do feel that Zensational still needs to prove himself against a higher class of horse, something he will have the opportunity to do in the BC Sprint.  

What is interesting is that Zensational has already won as many grade 1 races as Midnight Lute did his entire career. Going into the 2007 BC Sprint, Lute only had 2 stakes wins to his credit, the gr.3 Perryville at 3 and the 2007 gr.1 Forego. While Baffert had been extremely high on Lute for a long time, it took the big hoss about a year to finally put it all together (and for Baffert to realize he was best as a late running sprinter).

GunBow 23 Sep 2009 9:58 PM

So many have written about Silver Charm. I, earlier, wrote about his duels with Free House.  I hope Haskins will write, someday, about that great class of 1994.  Silver Charm, Free House, Touch Gold, Captain Bodgitt in the Triple Crown races.  Deputy Commander and Behrens in the Travers.  They, all, gave many of us many a thrill.  Marvelous crop of wonderful racers.

berttheclock 23 Sep 2009 10:14 PM

You're right Tiznowbaby.  Chips are only a problem if they hinder movement or cause inflammation.  Francois Boutin told Alan Paulson not to have Arazi's chips removed because they weren't a problem.  Mr Paulson didn't listen and Arazi didn't recover.  Spend A Buck had chips removed at 2, and then was retired because of more chips when he was training for the Fall campaign.  Spend A Buck was a hard running horse.  Arazi was small, light and quick.  Chances are that Arazi's chips would never have bothered him, but we really will never know.  

Footlick 23 Sep 2009 10:16 PM

I don't know what to make of Lava Man returning. I guess my first response was disbelief.  I was dubious when they brought him back last year, and outside of a decent 3rd in the gr.1 Whittingham, it was not an encouraging campaign.  In his last 6 starts, Lava Man ran 6th or worse 4 times.

One concern I have is whether Lava Man is being used as a living advertisement for a particular stem-cell company.  It would, after all, be fairly remarkable if he were able to come back and run successfully at a stakes level.  The stem-cell company that has been working on Lava Man has a lot to gain, at the very least in terms of publicity, were Lava Man to have success.  At this point, it's hard to get inside the heads of all the actors involved and know for certain what are the key motivations behind the return.  The EGO of the onwers?  Or, perhaps they just miss the joy of running such a beloved champion. Is Lava Man really that unahppy away from the track? If so, is there no other option than a return to the track?  It would be great to see Lava Man win again, but the downside seems steep. Ultimately, the life of a wonderful and giving(he has already made 46 starts) horse is at stake.  

There were signs that a Lava Man return was in the works.  After Lava Man won his 3rd Hollywood Gold Cup, Hollywood Park announced that immediately upon his retirement, the Californian Stakes would be renamed in his honor.  After Lava Man ran 6th in the 2007 Cal Cup Classic, I kept waiting for an anouncement from Hollywood Park concerning the name change until I finally learned that Lava Man was returning for what turned out to be an unsuccessful 3 race campaign in 2008. Well, after the 2008 Eddie Read and the "formal" announcement of Lava Man's retirement, I again started waiting for the name change. Yet, when Hollywood Park had its recent 2009 Spring/Summer meet, the race was still named the Californian. Did Hollywood Park know that Lava Man could return? It would have been funny had Lava Man run in his own stakes race.  

GunBow 23 Sep 2009 10:25 PM

I "love" the guy who has to wait for the Beyer # to "find out" if Ventura ran a good race last Sun...as for talking about a "poly horse", the tracks are fake but they're REAL horses runnin' on'em...

Matthew W 23 Sep 2009 10:56 PM

Mary in Vt--POTN was the only horse with a wide trip who stayed on in the Derby---PROBABLY was the best horse, the track was wrong that day! The rail was a freeway/the outside a quagmire! You're not gonna listen to BB cuz POTN wasn't the "second coming"??? Wow, tough audience!

Matthew W 23 Sep 2009 11:03 PM

Can Zensational match stides with Midshipman or Regal Ransom? The title  "Beast" is unearned. He will not win the BC Sprint as he is not a sprinter. Does anyone expect BB to win three consecutive BC Sprints? It will not happen.

Coldfacts 23 Sep 2009 11:06 PM

Tiznowbaby thanks for your response. I understand what you are saying. Ditto Footlick. So in short, the chips weren't a problem for War Emblem. Again, I do not believe Bob baffert would knowingly run a truly injured horse, especially one in pain. Heck, if you MRI'd any one of us I bet you would find things wrong that don't cause us any problem on a daily basis.

Paula Higgins 23 Sep 2009 11:12 PM

Here's what I want: ....World Peace.......Breeders Cup on dirt.......Breeders Cup always out West/or Gulfstream.....not necessarily in that order....

Matthew W 23 Sep 2009 11:16 PM

Agree 100% GunBow.

While I don't have any problem with Baffert ranking Zensational among the 5 most talented horses he has trained, I, for one, wouldn't rank Zensational among Baffert's top 5 overall horses. While the 3 grade 1s vs. older horses is impressive, the Cali sprint division is definitely down this year(and I should know having lived there from 86'-99').  So, I do feel that Zensational still needs to prove himself against a higher class of horse, something he will have the opportunity to do in the BC Sprint.  

Draynay 24 Sep 2009 12:01 AM

Thank you, Rick, for noticing my post.  With all of the horse talk going on around here, it is difficult to have one's prose appreciated.  I meant every word I said.  

Ted from LA 24 Sep 2009 12:44 AM

I don't know what to make of the potential return of Lava Man. I won't second guess or assign evil motives to his connections because I don't have any facts to support them.  I think the stem cell treatment sounds interesting and would sure like to know more about it.  

Lava Man is 8, not 18.  If he's in good health and has the desire I don't see a reason not to try to bring him back.  Though I have to admit, my initial gut reaction was "NO, why???!"

But I also don't think it does him any honor if he cannot run at the same level.

John Henry's connections tried to return him to training once or twice after he retired as I recall.  He was an older horse at that time then Lava Man is, and he didn't make it back I don't think.  Weren't they trying to get him to the innaugral running of the BC?  

Anyways, it's not completely unheard of to bring a horse back.  Or to want to. However, it will be quite a feat to get him back in the winners circle of a graded stakes event.  Best of wishes to Lava Man!

Runfast159 24 Sep 2009 1:54 AM

I thought this blog was about Bob, Zensational and the other horses HE personally feels have the best raw talent. But everyone else knows more about it than he does so... Jason you can save time, just let the subject of the day and the arm chair trainers on here take it and run with it.

Hey here's an idea Dray. You don't want to talk about the Cal horses and we don't want to listen to you talk about anything. Now there's a match made in heaven.

Mary, We saw PON run in the Derby and him and Zensational both at Saratoga when Mott had them. They were both amazing. PON was the Derby fave and came the closest as a sythetics/turf horse to winning the Derby so far. I'm not sure either that Bob is stroking Zayat. The dude will pull a horse at the drop of the hat from what I see.

Bob is like ours, they get super high on a horse and maybe get a little carried away. However, having seen all of the horses he named, run and work in the a.m. I'd say that he's pretty accurate, knowing what kind of horse he prefers. Even though one of them I was pretty young, could still see the ability right there.

One last thing Dray, change your pick for the Derby PLEASE. Bad karma and vibes for the colt, nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

Shawn P 24 Sep 2009 2:11 AM

berttheclock:

I second your admiration for the male crop of 1994(3 year olds of 1997).  In addition to Silver Charm, Free House, Touch Gold, Captain Bodgit, Deputy Commander, and Behrens there was Awesome Again, Wild Rush, Pulpit, Frisk Me Now, Anet, Concerto, Mud Route, Pacificbounty, Wild Wonder, Crypto Star, Phantom on Tour, Littlebitlively, Precocity,  Blazing Sword, Subordination, Richter Sclae, Smoke Glacken, Tale of the Cat, Affirmed Success, Kelly Kip, Swain(a Euro who ran some big races on dirt), and Kona Gold(although he didn't start racing until he was 4 in 1998).  Just a sampling of the depth of this crop, Wild Rush won the Illinois Derby, Oklahoma Derby, Kentucky Cup Classic, Carter, and Met Mile in his career while Frisk Me Now won the Flamingo, Ohio Derby, Pennsylvania Derby, Widener, Suburban, Iselin, and Gulfstream Park Sprint Championship.

In addition to the great 3 year old crop, 1997 also featured some outstanding older males, including Skip Away, Gentlemen, Formal Gold, Siphon, Will's Way, Singspiel, Atticus, Louis Quatorze(for a few races),Sandpit, Tejano Run, Benchmark, and Alphabet Soup(just 1 race).  

The 3 year old fillies of 1997 weren't bad either, with Ajina, Sharp Cat, Blushing KD, Glitter Woman, and Tomisue's Delight. 1997 was one of my favorite years in horse racing since I started following the sport in 1989.

GunBow 24 Sep 2009 4:10 AM

Gunbow, if this stem cell technology works, think about the benefits for many horses (in many disciplines) to actually be healthy & sound, and then the ramifications for people...wonderful, wonderful!

I am thrilled Lava Man, even if he never returns to his original form, which I think he can, will have a more physical future...he's only 8 for cryin' out loud...a barely mature horse...it would have been awful for him to live a life of limited physical movement, no matter how kind the pasture or loving the hands that care and feed for you, an athelete wants to LIVE...be like Lance Armstrong never being able to get on a bicycle again...or me to ride my horse or motorcycle...

Just think of standing in the same paddock for 20 years...

da3hoss 24 Sep 2009 6:50 AM

Atta Boy Roy from Emerald is the fastest horse in the country. Just wait till he goes 42.3 and keeps going. please bet against him!

Phillygoat 24 Sep 2009 10:01 AM

Speaking of that class of '94 which Gunbow listed, which were 3 year-olds in '97.....it really was a good one.....I wonder how the three year-olds of today (both sexes) wold have fared against them.....And then if today's three year-olds (again both sexes) wanted to try the older horses that year in a G-1 race how they would do.....Simply put, that crop of 3-year-olds in '97 and the older horses that raced then were much superior to what we are seeing now.

LAZMANNICK 24 Sep 2009 10:14 AM

Gunbow

Interesting.....in their division of the Little Brown Jug elimination heats, Village Master is 8/5 and Well Said is 5/2.

LAZMANNICK 24 Sep 2009 10:29 AM

Since the blog has now turned into the Lava Man blog (?) I agree with steve from sl who says horses are meant to run. If they're healthy why not?

I see a lot of people on here who want to treat them like hot house plants yet turn around and say the breed has been weakened. I kind of am starting to think it's the 'fans' of racing who are doing that by saying they've done so much after 5-6 races,yet criticizing others who have only run 3 or four times. Then complaining when they stop running them after their 3 year old season, but complaining that they're still running at 7 or 8 and have dropped down to optional claiming races and should be retired. I think it's really mixed messages.

If LM is healthy and fixed why not let him do what he loves? Doug is donating his % of winnings to TB retirement and the day rate covers expenses so really what is he profiting from?

"Shawn P me a salesman ?"

Didn't come from me, wrong person.

Shawn P 24 Sep 2009 10:52 AM

I was surprised at the Lava Man news; had mixed emotions. I'm usually not one of these "he's done enough" people, but I usually like to see a horse stay retired once that decision has been made. I just hope he stays healthy. It's a big risk. Im sure the stem-cell played a big part in this.

jshandler 24 Sep 2009 11:41 AM

On Lava Man:  I think Gun Bow has offered the most plausible explanation, the stem-cell "advertisement," for the return of Lava Man.  Yes, it might all turn out well and other horses could be similarly helped, but I kinda don't like the idea.

I have never been in favor of treating racehorses like hothouse flowers, but we are not talking about a Godolphin 3-year-old with six or seven starts.  If Lava Man is bored, there must be some alternative to returning him to competition.  Like someone else said, he will have to retire and adapt to it eventually, so why, at this stage of the game, take a chance that he will become too lame to enjoy his retirement.

Also worth noting, racing options with Lava Man are hardly unlimited (he doesn't run well outside Calif.), purses are down, Hollywood Park in jeopardy etc. ... By the time they figure out what surface and distance he prefers at this point, he will be 9.  I know the fans love him but I see very little upside to Lava Man resuming his career.

Also, I have to agree to an extent with Mary in VT about BB stroking Zayat.  Mr. Z has VERY VERY deep pockets and Baffert does not want to be without that type of client ever again.  BB was on top of the world from 1997-2002 and is right back on top since Midnight Lute and Indian Blessing, but there were some lean years (relatively speaking) in between.

Pam S. 24 Sep 2009 12:18 PM

Agree with Jason that it seldom works out to re-think the retirement decision and wanted to use Benny the Bull as an example.  He did not come back the same horse (not meaning to sound like "Pet Sematary").  And what about Songster?

Pam S. 24 Sep 2009 12:20 PM

If Bobby Frankel thought Ventura ran that 108 beyer he would enter her in BC turf mile or even face Forever Together.

THE NUMBERS THE REAL PLAYERS USE MOST LIKELY TELL A DIFFERENT STORY

steve s 24 Sep 2009 12:59 PM

Top three year old?  You're kidding me, right?  How do you give that to a horse who has never won anything going a route of ground?

JS 24 Sep 2009 1:12 PM

According to Millie Ball, whose husband is somehow connected to BB, you will never get ANYTHING out of BB. She made that comment on HRTV as though she enjoyed that about him. It  wasn't a cut to the man by any means. Apparently she thinks he plays his cards pretty close, and you will never know what he really thinks.  

And don't forget that there just might be something to gain by trumpeting the virtues of his current sprinter. If he could soften up the field by getting just one good horse to stay home or go elsewhere he would be ahead of the game.

For example, if Jason is correct that Fabulous Strike's connections are still considering the BC, BB's top five comment might be added to the 'don't go' side of the scale, if they give any credence to it at all, vs. the 'let's give SA another chance' side of it. And it is likely that others are soon to make final decisions as well.  

Mary in VT 24 Sep 2009 1:12 PM

I just kind of wonder how bad LM's ankle really was??

Pam as far as Zayat? That guy could pick em up and move them on a whim. That's the way he is. He did it to Bob before and he'll probably do it again no matter what Bob says or does. Not many owners name a horse after their trainer's kid, then up and move them leaving the guy baffled at 'some' dispute.

There was 'some' dispute when he took them from Bob the first time too.

The biggest hit Bob took was when Prince Salman died and when Bob Lewis passed away, then when McNair sold out. Wayne took the same hits when WT Young and Bob Lewis passed (even more because of a certain person).

Obviously you guys have never had a trainer, since they talk that way about whatever horse is really doing well. Especially the upper echelon horses.

However, speaking on raw TALENT I can see where he's coming from on the colt. He shocked everyone when he biffed it without any apparent cause in Saratoga last year.

Midnight Lute and Indian Blessing have owners who have been with Bob from the get-go. He doesn't have to include them to impress Mike or Hal especially, he did so because THAT is his evaluation. That's hard to do if you don't see them every day, work them and see their development before they ever hit the track or have a recorded work.

Shawn P 24 Sep 2009 1:21 PM

Greg J cant have too much common sense saying "If he goes California Flag & Zensational in Stone Cold Exacta,a little redemption for flag from last year"

   ITS NEVER GOOD TO PLAY TWO FRONT RUNNERS IN AN EXACTA ,any one with common sense should know that.

steve s 24 Sep 2009 1:36 PM

Well, it's become the Lava Man blog, because there's no where else to talk about it.

I agree that bringing him back goes against what we're used to and our "instincts"--in the past, there's little chance it would work out well.

But in this case we're (presumably) talking about a horse who retired not because he lost interest in racing, but because his ankles bothered him enough to affect his form. He received new, cutting-edge therapy and is now returning with apparently better soundness than he has enjoyed in years.

Given his bullet workout, he must feel good!

I think some judgment needs to be withheld, because we are dealing with a new therapy that we are all unfamiliar with. With "normal" treatment (joint injections w/ steroids, Adequan, or Legend), we could never expect the horse to come back equal to his previous form. We could just hope for some temporarily improved comfort. And they have made it clear that they wont run him if he isn't 100%.

Many times a horse doesn't "come back" as good as he was *because* of nagging stiffness, wear and tear, and old injuries. But again, we're talking about a new therapy. We just don't know how powerful it is.

I suspect that they will train him carefully, check him often, and maybe try a stakes or two. Even if he does well, I suspect they'd retire him after a year. And we will have learned something valuable--that with this treatment, some horses will be able to come back as good or better than they did before, and that may mean some retirements are postponed in the future. From my understanding, these treatments are even more effective if given at the first signs of problems, so it may mean that horses do race longer in the future. I would hope it would also mean less breakdowns, because I have to believe that if a horse is moving unevenly or out of balance due to minor unsoundness, then he is more likely to overstress the compensating leg.

I also hope that if at the end of this experiment his joints have deteriorated again at all, that they'll give him the necessary treatment to improve his comfort so he has a happy and relatively pain-free retirement.

As the owner of a horse with arthritis, it is such a frustrating disease to deal with. Joint supplements and drugs like Legend only work for so long. Long term pain relief like bute is very dangerous, the other less damaging drugs are extremely expensive. You can't just "rest" the horse and make it go away--it's always there, it'll always get worse. Eventually, the horse becomes so painful that you have to consider euthanasia, because it so severely effects their ability to get up after lying down--the horse stops lying down, gets sleep deprived (REM sleep is done while down)... and suffers.

And when it strikes a relatively YOUNG horse (as Da3Hoss keeps pointing out, 8 years old IS NOT OLD FOR A HORSE), it is even more depressing, because now you have a very expensive animal that has limited utility and faces many, many years left to live in increasing pain.

Whatever treatments they can devise to ameliorate the effects of arthritis, I am all for. And the bottom line is that many of these "breakthrough" treatments are pioneered in racehorses because there is real and actual financial incentive to return a horse to his prior level of soundness, so the owners are willing to make the substantial investment.

nonnonheinous 24 Sep 2009 1:51 PM

I would take some of Bafferts rankings as off the cuff opinions and keep in mind that of the three he mentioned Point Given did not race as an older horse and Midnight Lute was also pretty unsound. Zensational like the ot her two is damn talented but against Fabulous Strike (when he is right) now that is coin flip.

Some of the others like Indian Blessing and Silverbulletday,

you gotta be kidding me.........  

Silver Charm 24 Sep 2009 2:07 PM

DaHoss might become only the second biggest comeback since Lazarus ;-)

Wouldn't it be great for the equine, human and others if this new technology is more than a a "band-aid", if the "real" Lava Man is back?

And if the technology is sound and genuine, well that kind of science deserves promotion and reward.

How 'bout that Judith's Wild Rush?! Wow, I had no idea what an Iron Horse he is...67 starts in the upper levels of racing...whew.

da3hoss 24 Sep 2009 2:37 PM

Steve S.,

     Thanks for the heads up on letting me know I have no common sense, Thank You...

Greg J. 24 Sep 2009 3:03 PM

First knew Bob as a bad jockey.

This is BOB BAFFERT you're talking about Mary? LOL

First someone says he talks about all of them like PON (you?) now he's not forthcming about his horses?

He always has something to say about them, can always count on him to give a lot of quotables on his horses.

Tim G 24 Sep 2009 3:17 PM

Consider the source Greg, he's a you know who wannabe. So take it as a compliment.

It's probably raining invisible raindrops where he is too.

Tim G 24 Sep 2009 3:19 PM

Tim G.,

     Thanks, I know, lol...That's why I left it at that...

Greg J. 24 Sep 2009 3:44 PM

JS,

    The award say top 3yr old, not top Classic distance or sprinter 3yr old which means it should be open to ALL 3yr olds. Zensational has won 3 consectutive grade ones against older males, not particularly strong races, but times were fast and he is a speed horse winning on tracks where speed falls apart. No other 3yr old male has won a grade one in open company, and if SB win the Gold Cup I think he gets it, unless Zensational wins the BC sprint, while SB doesn't fair well in the Classic.

LDP 24 Sep 2009 4:25 PM

Lava Man started his career at the San Juaquin Fair in Stockton.  Let's hope he does not end his career there as well.  Does anyone remember Ali in his later fights?  

Householder 24 Sep 2009 4:44 PM

Greg J.,

I forgot, thanks for the update on Smokey Stover.  I was wondering what became of him.  Also, it was you who said that Lava Man would have to adapt to retirement sooner or later.  Judging from the comments on this blog, most everyone is hoping it will be "sooner."  

 

Pam S. 24 Sep 2009 5:25 PM

“Tom (Magali farm manager Tom Hudson) said that once Lava Man was put back in training, he was so much happier than when he was just hanging out at the farm.”

Read the article. They won't bring him back if he's not back on form. Doug said he is honored to be the caretaker of a champion.

Does that sound like someone who doesn't care about the horse?

I don't think he'll end up anywhere other than right where he belongs.

Now in the world of all YOU trainers of RACE horses, who knows?

Shawn P 24 Sep 2009 5:26 PM

Stem cell therapy is not particularly new.  I had a friend use it on her dressage horse about 4 years ago for a soft tissue injury.  The AAEP is reporting shockwave therapy is bringing better results (in general) than stem cell therapy, but on an individual basis, what works - works.

Zensational is going to be in deep water at BCC, there will be top class horses coming at him from start to finish - unlike the horses he has run away from to date.  It will be interesting to see what he's got in the tank.  

Kat 24 Sep 2009 7:39 PM

Lava Man.  Can't we just remember the "King of California" at his peak...3 consecutive Hollywood Gold Cups and 2 back to back Santa Anita Handicaps (I think a Pacific Classic score as well).  He is also one that did not "take" to synthetics well.  When all 3 tracks switched over he started to go down hill.

Householder 24 Sep 2009 8:34 PM

Bringing back Lava Man ?  Really? Why? Guess he needs to do more. Geez.

Draynay 24 Sep 2009 9:37 PM

Dray,

    With you short, concise comment on Lava Man, Never thought I would say this, But we actually agree, Must be a full Moon...

Greg J. 24 Sep 2009 10:08 PM

Tim,

All my comments and quotation went to *credibility.* But I don't expect you to take my word or my intuition or even my quotation for it. Let's wait and see if the horse lives up to the hype. If he does, then we will know that you, and not I, was right. But if he doesn't, then you have to back off on the Kool-Aid.

Actually, I hope Zensational does do well, but he has a lot more to do to rank with Fabulous Strike.

Mary in VT 24 Sep 2009 10:33 PM

Steve S you're a comic! I HAD Ventura on top, Mr "the REAL players know her REAL #'s"---FORGIVE me for beong so unreal in your prescense--I read that they prefer her around ONE turn, like the Woodbine Mile....or the F & M Sprint---I'd love to see her take your $$ again at a turf mi---haha--but, alas, the purse is sweet/the field is easier--and WE don't own her! (Too bad!)

Matthew W 24 Sep 2009 11:05 PM

Turf.....Firm turf.....BUT reach the top again---the top tier---or, PLEASE--let that beautiful brown horse Lava Man stay on the farm....

Matthew W 24 Sep 2009 11:08 PM

I mean I'd love to see Ventura v Goldikova....Likely Goldikova wins---THAT'S what I LOVE about the Breeders Cup! You can get a nice price on a real nice horse, I'd put some presidents on Ventura, I'd take the price--especially when she's at home and fresh....

Matthew W 24 Sep 2009 11:16 PM

I think I read someone saying if Fab Strike goes in BCup--Baffert will skip a chance to run for a MILLION....on the WORLD STAGE.....with the probable FAVORITE??!! With a horse he calls The BEAST??!! And then this person says she KNOWS Baffert??!!

Matthew W 24 Sep 2009 11:25 PM

nonnonheinous, that was a really great post! and you're right, they will watch over him like a hawk...

da3hoss 25 Sep 2009 6:25 AM

Shawn P, you bring up good points about BB having to regroup after those losses of deep pocketed owners.  The first loss of Thoroughbred Corp, when Prince Salman died, especially.  But, have you considered there might have been curse placed upon him, when McNair bought a quality mare from the NYPD producer and trained by Canani?  Her name started with a T.  She ended up running second in the BC, with Canani winning.  The curse may have been because when she was transferred to BB's barn, her favorite goat was not allowed to follow.  Thus, another "Curse of the Goat", eh?

berttheclock 25 Sep 2009 8:59 AM

nay nay,

"I read what I posted last night and it doesn't make any sense to me either." Lol.  

Draynay 23 Sep 2009 1:51 PM

I'm savin this one to copy and paste after ALL your posts since it applies to them universly. You finally put some truth to one of your statements.

draynot 25 Sep 2009 9:39 AM

Mary, I'm not saying that "I" think Zensational is the best ever. I just said Bob is giving HIS opinion of HIS rankings of HIS horses with the MOST RAW TALENT.

Knowing Bob for a long time, he means what he says NOW. That doesn't mean it won't change if he gets some different horses that supplant some of these in RAW talent.

But I can't see why people that don't own, train or observe the horses every day think they should override the man's opinion of HIS horses or try to discredit what the man himself thinks about HIS horses.

By the way RAW TALENT means just that. It doesn't even mean that RAW TALENT will come to fruition or translate to a champion race horse. Some of the horses with the most RAW TALENT can never get their head in the game.

Draynot, LOL. Keep that handy, you’ll need to trot it out 10-15 times a day with him.

Actually Draynay, Cal is running out of horses for you to rag on so they're bringing them out of retirement to run.

Basically the gelding was off form, I'm not convinced he was injured as much as he began to disappoint and they thought he was 'tired' of running.  Of course at age 8 some maintenance and care of ankles that have taken a pounding is beneficial.

I'm not much for bringing back a retired horse and they may not be to the same form they were before but there are a lot who HAVE had success. Look at  the long retirement-like layoffs of DaHoss and Commentator. There are quite a few others who did so, came back and won some important races, retired for good and retired to a good life either in the breeding shed or farm.

Apparently Lava Man is one of those who doesn't make a riding horse and apparently doesn't like farm life. If you get one of those they can be totally miserable, especially one with the personality and bright eyed demeanor of LM who likes human contact. Maybe as he ages he'll get past that.

Tim G 25 Sep 2009 11:51 AM

Good for you Draynot I am just trying to keep up with the high standards you set each time you decide to post.

Draynay 25 Sep 2009 12:20 PM

Quit your crying about Lava Man-you people (betters)are the problem-no one crying about hunger and homeless in america or the mentally ill or uneduacated in america

steve s 25 Sep 2009 1:06 PM

I'm not sure how I feel about Lava Man returning. They will write a race for his return and beg a few trainers to enter against him. It's like Better Talk Now. Still OK but, not great now. I wonder when he will come back?

As for Baffert, when he has a good horse he will take care of it. He's not really boasting about Zensational, he is being truthful. This horse is a fast sprinter and I'm not sure there is anyone out there to pressure him early at 6F.

Caballotom 25 Sep 2009 1:33 PM

steve s, I cry for you every time I read one of your posts.

If this was about those subjects I'm sure some would be crying.

Although I agree that the horse is probably fit to run and if not won't.

Dray, give it up trying to keep up a standard. It's a losing battle. Just focus on whatever horse you've decided to beat up on this week.

Shawn P 25 Sep 2009 2:24 PM

P.S. steve s? we know we're your betters, some of us happen to also be bettors.

Good grief this is a HORSE RACING blog.

Shawn P 25 Sep 2009 2:28 PM

I am willing to bet anyone on this site, especially rick, 10 grand that zensational wins. Let me tell you i know this horse better than all of you do.

JZ 25 Sep 2009 3:25 PM

Steve S.,

     People are voicing their opinion on Lava Man, Regardless of where you stand on the subject, I wouldn't call it crying, It is called being passionate about the sport you love and letting your feelings be known.  As far as you saying, "you people (betters)are the problem-no one crying about hunger and homeless in america or the mentally ill or uneduacated in america".  First off, I am sure most here care about those causes, But, Do you really think this is the forum for those discussions?, I think not!  Finally, A word of advice, If you are going to come down on people, A good start would be to use proper spelling(I.E., "betters" & "uneduacated")...

Greg J. 25 Sep 2009 9:40 PM

How about a shout out to Indian Blessing!  Perhaps a Indian Blessing/Ventura matchup is again forth coming.  But come on...How deep is the Baffert Barn come BC time?

Householder 28 Sep 2009 1:09 PM

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