BloodHorse.com

Mixed Feelings

I don’t know how I feel anymore. I hate to become too wrapped up in all this Curlin vs. Big Brown banter and then have it all become moot when they go their separate ways. If it turns out to be nothing but idle chatter, then what good did it do other than provide us with amusement or indignation, depending on how you reacted to it?

There was Rick Dutrow’s harsh challenge to Curlin’s connections, calling them out as would a professional boxer goading an opponent by taking potshots at him and his family. There was Jess Jackson’s stern, but tactful response, scolding the instigator as a teacher would a disruptive student.

Should Curlin and Big Brown face each other for Horse of the Year honors? Certainly. Now that it's not going to happen in the Woodward, should they do it in the Breeders’ Cup Classic? Well, that’s where the ambivalence comes in.

Part of me says go for it and hope they both run to the best of their ability over the synthetic surface, while the other part of me, and the more dominant one, says championships, at least at this time, should not be decided on a synthetic surface, especially one that won’t even be tested until five weeks before the Breeders’ Cup. We have no idea what they’ll be running on. I keep picturing Curlin and Big Brown getting beat by a synthetic surface specialist who couldn’t warm them up on a dirt track and going away feeling, what a waste of time that was. And then it will hit me: “Geez, we have to go through this again next year.”

Even if Curlin wins and Big Brown finishes second, or vice versa, can you honestly say it was a true test, or did the loser simply not handle the track as well he would have had the race been on dirt? I can’t help but think of Street Sense, who ran well enough on Polytrack to be competitive, but was not anywhere near as good as he was on dirt. Getting beat a nose in the Blue Grass Stakes and finishing a good third in the Breeders’ Futurity would suggest that he handled the Polytrack fine. But compare it to his subsequent performances in the Kentucky Derby and Breeders’ Cup Juvenile and you can clearly see he was a totally different horse on dirt than he was on synthetic.

Yes, you can always say a sloppy track compromises the chances of some horses. And this is true. But they don’t set off to run in the slop. Last year’s  track at Monmouth was an act of nature on a nature-made surface and it was just unfortunate it had to come in such an important and eagerly anticipated race. Artificial surfaces are not an act of nature; they are just that – artificial, and you would hate to have it produce an artificial result with so much at stake.

I also have mixed feelings about Jess Jackson’s inclination to skip the Classic. Again, you’d love to see Curlin compete on racing’s biggest stage, but I can understand his misgivings about using Curlin as an “experiment,” not even knowing what kind of surface he’ll be running on. What if the new track turns out to be a disaster, just like the previous surface at Santa Anita, or just like the previous surface at Del Mar? Even if it’s not, why run him on an uneven playing field against seasoned synthetic track horses?

Jackson has done everything right in his attempt to show off Curlin to the world, and he must be applauded for his ambitious quest to send the champ to France for the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe. It is that kind of pioneer spirit we need nowadays to put racing in the national and international spotlight following the Triple Crown. He could, of course, prep Curlin on a synthetic track in the Goodwood, but if he doesn’t take to it then you’ve wasted a race. Maybe that would inspire him to go for the BC Turf, but that would mean running the on dirt, turf, dirt, synthetic, and back to turf. Not only could that confuse the horse, it’s got me totally confused just thinking about it.

As for Dutrow and Big Brown, there’s nothing wrong with a few friendly jabs being thrown between two potential combatants, but with many owners inclined to think of their horses as their “children,” one can understand Jackson taking offense to the personal and derogatory nature of Dutrow’s comments.

“What you have is an attempt to show the animals at their very best,” Jackson said. “And to run down another guy’s horse, it may make for interesting reading for (the press), but I don’t think it’s the right thing to do; it demeans the industry. Yes, I’d love to meet him. It would be great for the industry and for the fans. They’re both great horses.”

Well said by a classy guy. But let’s face it, Dutrow, when he feels strongly about something, speaks from the gut, and when he says “Big Brown is way better than Curlin,” and “Shame on them for not running in the Classic,” he’s saying what he feels -- in this case based on his passion for Big Brown -- and doesn’t care about any repercussions. He’s too focused on what he’s feeling to think about that. Those feelings head straight for the mouth without making the usual stop upstairs where most people screen and then modify them. If people dislike Dutrow, so be it. His philosophy is, he can’t control how people feel about him. That is Rick Dutrow – take him or leave him. This year, many people have left him. Even his owners almost left him. But like he said when asked if this year has felt like a roller coaster ride: “My whole life has felt like a roller coaster ride.”

The guy is a great horseman, regardless of all his baggage, and while his comments provide fodder for the press, if you’re on the other end of them it’s best to just smile, shake your head, and not take him too seriously, just as racing manager Nobutaka Tada did when Dutrow threw several darts at Casino Drive. Sometimes, silence is much louder than rebuttal.

I also commend the decision by IEAH Stables and Dutrow to run in the Classic and wanting to meet Curlin, but I also can’t help but wonder if they’re going to regret it should Big Brown not perform up to his usual standards on the synthetic surface. Honestly, I just don’t know what to think anymore.

There are two possible ways out of this mess. How about if we can get IEAH Stable and Jess Jackson to agree – a handshake will do – to one of two things?

First, they agree to run in the Classic, and if both horses come out of the race in good shape (no phony maladies, please), the winning owner agrees to give the loser, if he so desires, a rematch in the Clark Handicap at Churchill Downs four weeks later – 1 1/8 miles on the dirt and over a track on which both horses have excelled.

If Jackson remains adamant about not running in the Classic, the other alternative would be to simply agree to meet in the Clark (over a fast track or by mutual agreement over a sloppy track – the horses’ safety must take priority) and the heck with the Classic. If Big Brown’s people want to run for the $5 million, that is their prerogative. But let them shake hands with Jackson beforehand and agree to come back in the Clark. In short, the Clark will be become the championship race, regardless of what happens in the Classic. This way, the horses’ connections are free to prep for the race anywhere they so desire. Just imagine the atmosphere at Churchill Downs having these two magnificent horses square off over what it is hoped will be a fast track.

I realize this will seem too contrived and unrealistic to many, but, heck, it’s a blog, where one can spew forth whatever comes to ones mind, right? In reality, Big Brown is scheduled to have only one or two more races, culminating with the BC Classic. In his connections’ minds, if Big Brown should win the Classic, and they fully expect him to, then what better way to end his career. And they can always claim Curlin had every chance to take the same gamble they did and chose not to. That certainly would make a good case for Big Brown being voted Horse of the Year. So, why agree to run in the Clark? Then again, what if he does lose? That puts Curlin in the driver’s seat and gives his connections the luxury of running him wherever they want, Big Brown or no Big Brown. Knowing Jackson’s sporting nature and his confidence in his horse, he could very well give Big Brown a chance to take Curlin’s crown away from him in the Clark anyway.

So, there you go. I just confused myself even further. If you’ve moved on to another blog by now I can certainly understand why.

For those remaining, instead of rambling on, let’s turn our attention to the Haskell. While up in Saratoga, the vast consensus of opinion among the media and horsemen was that Big Brown’s performance was unimpressive -- he was drifting out, he was under pressure early, he did little running until the last 70 yards, he was facing a mediocre field, and was in danger of losing to an allowance horse.

All true, but having a need to play devil’s advocate, here is the race I saw. I saw a horse who basically hadn’t run since the Preakness; you can add a few fruitless furlongs in the Belmont if you wish. I saw a horse chase a lone speed horse over a notoriously speed-favoring track through testing fractions and still found a way to run him down. And that lone speed horse had a 9 1/4-length win and 102 Beyer over the track, was trained by the destroyer of idols, Nick Zito, and had been the most highly regarded of all of owner Robert LaPenta’s 2-year-olds last year. With some horses, sometimes it takes talent a while to surface, especially when they have things their own way.

I saw a horse who earned a 107 Beyer speed figure and 110 Brisnet figure, turning certain defeat into victory, while showing a whole new dimension. Jerry Brown of Thoro-Graph agonized over this race for four days before giving Big Brown a negative 2 1/4, which was more than a full point better than he got in the Preakness. And he said he came very close to giving him a negative 4 1/4, basically the same record-breaking number he earned in the Kentucky Derby, but decided at least for now to take the conservative approach. Brown said that could change, but added, however, that negative 2 1/4 still is an excellent number. 

Big Brown actually hit another gear in the last 70 yards and was just beginning to run as he approached the wire. And it it’s not like he was all out to win in a photo. He won under a hand ride in the final strides by 1 3/4 lengths in 1:48 1/5 with a gap of 4 1/2 lengths back to the Fountain of Youth winner. Most people knock the :13 final eighth, which isn’t that bad in the first place, but Big Brown’s final eighth in :12 3/5 was certainly respectable enough, especially after chasing a :46 2/5 and 1:10 4/5 pace and a 1:35 1/5 mile and running his two previous quarters in :24 1/5 and :24 3/5.

Let’s remember that Point Given was life and death to win the Haskell over a weak field by a half-length, earning a 106 Beyer. Yet no one castigated him for his performance and for trying to duck in turning for home. Skip Away won the Haskell by one length; Holy Bull won by 1 3/4 lengths; Touch Gold won by 1 1/2 lengths. Curlin ran the worst race of his career in the Haskell, finishing a dull third; Preakness and Belmont winner Hansel finished third, beaten 13 lengths at 1-2. In short, the Haskell is almost always a tough race, and most of its winners have won by small margins, many over horses with a race over the track. Does anyone recall the tough time the overwhelming favorite Lion Heart had with local horse My Snookie’s Boy in both the Long Branch and Haskell?

As for his drifting out, he’s done it before. The legendary John Nerud, having watched all his big races, pointed out that he firmly believes Big Brown has a problem with his mouth, whether it’s a tooth, the roof of his mouth, or even his tongue. He feels he needs a special strap, similar to the leather Indian-style strap he designed for his horses that had a similar problem.

Is Big Brown the super horse he was perceived to be during the spring? Who knows? That still remains to be seen. But, for now, he’s won every race he’s finished. The way people are talking, one would think he lost the Haskell. But he won it. So, at least for now, let’s give him the credit he deserves and see how he progresses off this race. If he regresses, then his connections will have to deal with that. If he moves forward, then the rumblings of a showdown with Curlin will be heard loudly once again.

So, what does all this mean? It means that the Breeders’ Cup will be run on a synthetic surface this year and next year and we just have to accept it. Whoever ships from the Eastern dirt tracks, good for them. Whoever doesn’t, good for them. How’s that for clarification?

219 Comments:

I say the two boys should run against Zenyatta!  Then we will know who is the best:> but if not I like your suggestion.  And honestly, Dutrow, and IEAH has turned me against Big Brown. Not fair for the horse, I know....

Marcia 07 Aug 2008 4:49 PM

My point of view on the whole Big Brown and Curlin situation is that even though Dutrow's challenging Curlin him and IEAH are afraid of Curlin and don't want to run against him because they believe Curlin is better or that Big Brown is running hurt, just imagine what PETA would have to say about that. And I believe that Santa Anita having two straight BC's is totally bogus since the track isn't even there right now so who knows what it will be like. So to me a track like Saratoga, Del Mar, Arlington, Keeneland, Hollywood, Aqueduct, Belmont or a track like Woodbine should be given this year's or next year's Breeders Cup.

Huh 07 Aug 2008 5:04 PM

Bravo Steve! An excellent piece, you echo my thoughts completely. As I said, I did see you at the Haskell and you sure looked intent. I supposing you were thinking, "I don't know how I feel?" LOL I am glad you expressed your thoughts on  Big Browns Haskell run. I thought much the same as you, without all those statistics of course. But I knew he ran a good race. So, it wasn't great, but he won, and it was GOOD. And I agree with your idea, "they agree to run in the Classic, and if both horses come out of the race in good shape the winning owner agrees to give the loser, if he so desires, a rematch in the Clark Handicap at Churchill Downs four weeks later.

If Jackson remains adamant about not running in the Classic, the other alternative would be to simply agree to meet in the Clark." I think that would be good for Horse racing as well!!

normajean81258 07 Aug 2008 5:08 PM

Marcia, I have to agree with you...

Dutrow's latest comments were rediculous, but I suppose that's what he does.

Curlin is one of my all-time favorites (since his Rebel victory) and he will remain so, regardless of what happens in his future.

Melissa 07 Aug 2008 5:09 PM

Steve, I too shake my head at the Breeders' Cup for holding the championship on an untested surface for two straight years.  However, it hasn't stopped Aidan O'Brien from pointing Henrythenavigator to the Classic despite what happened to George Washingon last year.  I agree, Jess Jackson is a sportsman, more of what are game needs, but if he was sporting enough to try the turf, try the synthetic surface as well.  A Big Brown, Curlin, Henrythenavigator classic could be one for the ages.

Rob 07 Aug 2008 5:10 PM

The sniping going on with Curlin vs Big Brown is similar to Seabiscuit vs War Admiral but a match race is not always the deciding factor for who is the best as things can go wrong and horses may not feel at their best so I believe one must look at the performances they gave for the entire year. As for Big Brown's performance in the Haskell it's probably (again all the sniping) due to most people trying hard to declare him "great" a word that should not be bantered around so easily, "greatness" must be earned and there are many, myself included, who feel that Big Brown still has some questions to answer before "great" can be placed next to his name. It's not that we dislike the horse he is a beautiful animal and the cudos he has received he deserves but many are still waiting for the final judgement of greatness. Curlin has done much beginning with last year's Jockey Club Gold Cup so he has proven himself quite abit, "greatness" is close to his name, let's hope he continues to show that he deserves to have that word placed next to it.

Julie L. 07 Aug 2008 5:12 PM

I think that horses like Henrythenavigator, Curlin or Big Brown could do well in the Classic since they are all above average turf horses.

Huh 07 Aug 2008 5:22 PM

I just added a Thoro-Graph number for the Haskell and comments from T-Graph's Jerry Brown. It's pretty revealing.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 5:25 PM

Hello Steve:

As usual you make great sense regarding bb and Curlin. I certainly agree w/ you about BB's last race. People refuse to give him a break. If BB had won by 20,all the cry babies would be complaining he didn't win by 21!!

MIKE RELVA 07 Aug 2008 5:29 PM

Steve, Steve, Steve.....

So many thoughts - so many responses!  I'll try to keep it concise.

First of all - why (and when) will you tire of being the apologist for Dutrow's mouth?  You have sung the song about him being a "good hearted guy who speaks from the gut" for every example of hurtful, outrageous public comment he's spewed.  You even convinced me to give him a second chance, and a third, and a twelfth....but at what point does a person say "enough!" and demand a change to what is negative, boorish, obnoxious behavior that has scarred the reputation of BB more than any other aspect of his career or connections.  

Iavarone said "they can't win" with public opinion - that is probably true.  Dutrow has put the stink on Big Brown through his incessant need to voice his random and derogatory thoughts.  That's why there was no overwhelming grief when BB lost the Triple Crown.

Big Brown will never capture the imagination of the general public the way a Secretariat did - because BB is just not that good and the connections lacked Mrs. Chenery's easy elegance and PR charm.  And he won't get the following of a Funny Cide or a Smarty Jones - because there's no feel good story when the most visible and vocal member of the horse's team is a irretrievable blowhard.

Iavarone should have pulled the horse from him long ago.  There are just as good (and better) trainers than Dutrow - one's who handle the public better, work without the drug scandals and endless penalties and seem to be just nicer people.  I know - nice doesn't win races - but it does count in the arena of public opinion - and that is a big part of how the marketing money is made.

As to the Haskell - well, I know you have Nerud weighing in - and I'd be stupid to argue with a legend like that - but suffice it to say that I was with the remaining connections of a legendary racing team - and to a man/woman, they felt that BB ran a very average race - poor by his former standards, and that his feet are an issue that is not being made public.

In fact, joint opinion was that -  after being told that Dutrow pulled an audible and worked BB on turf prior to the race - to look for them to try to put him on grass next to try and save what's left of his feet.  Two days later?  The announcement that they want a grass race created for him!  If that wasn't prophetic - I don't know what was.

I don't think BB will make the Classic - I think he will retire due to the ubiquitous "phantom injury" a la Smarty Jones.  If he does actually make it to October - I do not think he is or will be the horse he appeared to be in May, and will face tougher opponents.  If he wins and I am wrong - well, there's a cup of coffee and breakfast on me with your name on it if we are ever in the same area of the track kitchen!

Curlin?  I wish he'd run in the Classic.  The great ones - the truly great ones could run on anything at any distance.  But I understand your concerns - it's a BIG unknown as to how the track plays.  But the great ones don't duck the biggest race in the game just because the track isn't the favorite.  Remember Sonny Hines bringing Skip Away back to the Cup at Churchill - a track SA hated?  He knew the horse wouldn't run his best - but he didn't duck.  That, my friend, is sportsmanship.

Like it or not - the big showdown should be in the Classic on the synthetic - and both horses should show and settle it one way or another.

One other note:  I had the chance to meet the grand old man, Evening Attire at his stall and also watch him out on the track at Saratoga.  Now - THAT is a horse story that people can get behind.  Great horse, great connections.  Honest, tactful, and loads of heart.  I'll be cheering for him most of all if he runs at Breeders Cup!

Cgriff 07 Aug 2008 5:36 PM

Steve, you and many others in the racing industry are just too nice when it comes to Rick Dutrow.  The man is a jerk, pure and simple.  And people just seem to give him a pass on it.  Success doesn't give you license to be a boor.  I can understand, though, that many in the industry have to work and be around the man so matters are best left alone for sake of peace.

As for Big Brown vs Curlin, unless the two race each other and Big Brown beats Curlin, any stating that Big Brown is better is mere speculation.  And unless Big Brown beats Curlin, I don't see how he could be named HOY.  Not when Curlin's connections will have given Big Brown's connections plenty of chances to face them.

And in regard to synthetics and this year's BC, I find it somewhat hypocritical for people to trash the BC for choosing a synthetic track and then to turn around and criticize trainers who hesitate to run their horses on it.  Curlin's people aren't the only ones who are doubtful about running their charges in the Breeder's Cup.  Zito and Frankel (Ginger Punch) have said there's a good chance they won't run their horses in the BC this year.

Pollas 07 Aug 2008 5:54 PM

Hi Steve, great artical as usual. I personally love reading your oppinons, mainly because on most things the echo my own, or help me see things from a new angle.

My first thing is BB and his Haskel. I think that it was a good race coming off a very long layoff, but im afraid i'll have to reserve my judgement on whether BB is back or not. Don't get me wrong i think this is a terrific horse, i just don't think the Haskel was a true gauge on whether the horse is back to the top of his game. In saying that if BB comes and wins his next race,( in any kind of fashion), then i will agree that BB is in fact back.

Next, Mr. Haskin, i agree with your statement regaurding the two facing of in the Clark. I think that would be a perfect race to settle the dispute over who has the better horse. I personally think Curlin is the better of the two by a longshot. I have to say though i don't think it will happen, especially if BB wins the Classic. BB conections will probably make the excuse that they already won the Classic and have nothing left to prove and why should they chase Curlin. Also i doubt, very seriously they will go where Curlin goes. Just look at what just happened when Curlin said hay im going to the woodward come and get me. BB connections, and i hate to say it are ducking Curlin. BB had the perfect oppertunity to take Curlins crown, in a 11/4 on dirt, which they both excell at, and didn't take it. Actions speak louder than word, and Dutrows actions contridict his words. Dutrows actions speak fear, fear that his horse is going to get beat when actually faced with Curlin. So basiclly what im trying to say is why would BB connection race Curlin later in the year when they already threw out a perfect oppertunity to do it. I hope im wrong but i don't think i am, and can't see Dutrow sending his champ against Curlin, no matter what he says.

LDP 07 Aug 2008 5:55 PM

Dutrow's comments may well have been calculated to provoke Jackson, who's expressed reservations about running on a synthetic surface and made comments about the BC Classic like "been there, done that," to try Big Brown in the Classic. Isn't that what trash talk is about - to provoke the opposition into doing what you want. So Dutrow's apt comparisons of Big Brown's career with Curlin's and his claim of superiority for Big Brown indeed may well have traveled through and possibly originated in his head and not his gut. As for Jackson and his "slim chance" he may race Curlin next year and forget the lucrative breeding stall and "adding to the gene pool," here's hoping he remembers the sport and the fans and forgets mammon and the "industry." To see Curlin run at 5 or to either go further and let Curlin tell Jackson when he's ready to leave racing would stamp Jackson as a breed apart - a true sportsman who acted selflessly in the interest of racing and the racing public rather than as a business-minded CEO chasing extravagant levels of wealth and material excess. Curlin is a perfectly manageable and durable champion who if allowed to do his thing on the track instead of mounting mares in a breeding stall ad nauseum might bring back memories of the great handicap horses of recent memory -  Buckpasser,Damascus,Dr.Fager, et al. I'm tired of just watching geldings run as 5,6,and 7 year olds and beyond. If Jackson did so with Curlin it would be just what racing needs, i.e., to return in the direction of a sport rather than an industry. And, oh, would Jackson be beloved and admired by the racing public if he so acted as a breed apart.

Will W 07 Aug 2008 5:59 PM

I think it's clear why horses like Lion Heart, Point Given (et al) were "forgiven", and still had a large fan base...they did not have mouthpieces like Dutrow. While it may not be FAIR to heap the dislike on the horse, that is what happens. To consistently forgive Dutrow by making comments like "That's just how he is"...condones what has become really beyond obnoxious behavior. I personally don't find Dutrow honest (that's actually the last thing I find him), funny, or charming at ALL.

All that said, I can watch BB's race in the Haskell objectively, and say he "should have" walloped a horse like Coal Play (still eligilble for NW2 other than), and didn't. Tired off a lay off...or on a downward spiral? Remains to be seen.

The people around BB, intentionally or otherwise, have cemented the over-all public disdain. It's not about BB...but it's hard to root for the horse, because you're rooting for these connections too, by default, and that's where people draw the line.

It is just my humble opinion, but Dutrow is the POOREST representative of any aspect of this sport.

TrackTeacher 07 Aug 2008 6:09 PM

Steve, you expressed the same mixed feeling most of us have. Julie I agree with most of what you say. The only thing is the hard feelings between the horses of yore weren't public fodder that overwhelmed the two most important figures. Yes according to the book and the movie there was some calling out by the two parties but nothing like what is going on now. Maybe the difference is the thought that people can say anything they want under the guise of free speech. Maybe because of the internet or maybe because racing isn't thought of like it once was. Can you imagine a match race, one of them breaking down? I think that's something racing would never recover from. Meet in a regular race. Hey, wouldn't it be classic if they dueled each other then a horse held in lesser regard was to beat both. Wouldn't be the first or the last time. I personally don't think either can be labeled 'great' at this point, especially if you compare them to the greats Steve has chronicled so beautifully in past.

JordanA 07 Aug 2008 6:23 PM

Curlin has already proven himself he's great! Big Brown is still on the road to proven hisself.Ilove both of them and I beleive every horse is something special to their owners and their public I don't like the thought of match races.Look what happened to Ruffian one of the greattest ever.

rita 07 Aug 2008 6:27 PM

First you said lets have a showdown with Curlin and your horse Big Brown (who wasn't even your horse before the Kentucky Derby) in the Woodward. Now that Curlin is going to go in the Woodward your making up stupid excuses for Big Browns absense.

You and Dutrow are a perfect match.

Two Faced 07 Aug 2008 6:37 PM

Maybe trainer Richard Dutrow Jr. is making the most of his 15min of fame he is having this year courtesy of Big Brown. Scandals and the kind of debate-arising comments he makes certainly gets him all the attention. Just look at how much he gets printed and posted about him.

Mercedes 07 Aug 2008 6:56 PM

Great article Steve. As you already know, we agreed 100%. I just hope and pray it never comes down to a "match race" between Curlin and Big Brown. We all know what happened in 1975's match race. Big Brown deserves much more credit than he has gotten in the media. We all know it's because of the trainer and problems with IEAH before the Kentucky Derby ran. But isn't the sport of horse racing mean it's about the talent of the "HORSE"? Good idea on the Clark too, I hope it happens.You know, Jess Jackson and Dutrow remind me of another famous pair from long ago: Charles Howard and Sam Riddle!!

Loretta T. 07 Aug 2008 7:20 PM

Where oh where did I say Dutrow was good-hearted guy? I once wrote he had strong feelings for his horses. I dont even know him well enough to say that he's good-hearted. People just read what they want to read. I didn't call Dutrow for several weeks leading up to the Haskell because he acted like a jerk when I called him and he refused to comment on one of Big Brown's works. Suggesting people not pay any attention to his ramblings is hardly defending him. Yes, Big Brown's reputation and mainly his popularity has suffered because of Dutrow, but the ovation the horse received after the Haskell was the loudest I have ever heard at Monmouth in all my years of covering races there. So, not everyone dislikes the horse I can assure you.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 7:21 PM

It's amazing how the blog became mostly about Dutrow when it was intended to be about Curlin vs. Big Brown, the Classic, and the Haskell. To answer some comments, I never defended Dutrow's comments; I just said it's best to ignore them. If no one listens to him then we wouldnt have to keep adding fuel to his fire.

Dutrow's comments may very well have been calculated, but what I know of him he just talks. He wants to meet Curlin and he says so, clear and simple. He said he was "calling them out," but sometimes the gut and the brain are thinking and saying the same thing.

I also never said Big Brown was back. I said let's wait to see if he progresses or regresses off this race.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 7:30 PM

15 minutes of fame courtesy of Big Brown? He's already trained a BC Classic winner, BC sprint winner, and BC Mile winner, and a Horse of the Year. He has one of the top two sprinters in the country, the best grass miler. I hardly call that 15 minutes of fame courtesy of Big Brown. I'm not here to defend Dutrow, nor do I want to, but let's make some sense, please.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 7:34 PM

"an uneven playing field against seasoned synthetic track horses"?!?!?!

Who are these mythical "seasoned synthetic" horses?

Plus it's very presumptive to say the new surface will be an uneven playing field...No horse in the US will have run over this new surface before Oak Tree, so no horse has an advantage yet.  

Curlin and Big Brown should be out here in CA getting used to the place, NOT MAKING EXCUSES!

GREAT horses can run on anything!  

Jen 07 Aug 2008 7:36 PM

To prove my point, I have not responded to Two Faced's absurd comments, because he or she, like Dutrow, should be ignored for running off at the mouth without thinking.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 7:39 PM

Regarding the Haskell and Big Brown:yes, my fellow New Jerseyans and I paid homage to a great horse. We cheered for him in the post parade and cheered even louder when he won and came back to the winner's circle.....After all he did win the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. As for the Belmont.......I will never blame the horse; he didn't lose it, the loss came from a "human factor". And as for you "Two Faced": you obviously don't read all of Steve's articles!!!

Loretta T. 07 Aug 2008 7:42 PM

Who ever said these two horses have to run against each other. Curlin is a good horse turned great with age and seasoning, he hasn't got anything to prove. I would put him back on dirt and leave him there until he retires. He will probably go past Cigar in money, but he will never match Cigar's record of races. They won't keep him out long enough and they don't race him enough. I wouldn't take him to the Breeder's Cup this year. That will probably be a big disappointment. The people in charge of it don't know when to leave well enough alone. Big Brown was an explosive horse, fun to watch, who has leveled off. I blame the Belmont on his trainer, I don't think he took the whole experience seriously and the horse paid the price. Now he needs to get his confidence back. The Haskell was a good start, but he won't be racing long enough to make a difference. These two horses do not need to square off against each other. Match ups are dangerous at least, possibly suicidal, just to satisfy egos and the publics need for blood. They are too valuable for that.

Gail 07 Aug 2008 7:44 PM

Steve you are right about people not making sense, though i hope im not in the catogory of not making any sense. I don't think Dutrow is a bad trainer by any means. The man has some of the best horses in training right now, so he must be doing something right. I don't think it's right to call you or anybody two faced for that matter either. Look at what i just did i just said Dutrow is a good trainer, so WHAT! You can be a good trainer and a jerk, which he is, but as said before the man knows what he's doing when training his horse, and normally the horse from what iv'e heard always comes first with him. To anybody out there who thinks im just defending dutrow or just some die hard BB fan your wrong. If BB and Curlin finally, though i doubt they will get togeather I hope Curlin wins by a mile. I love watching horses compete no matter what the sport, jumping, eventing, or racing. Trash talk goes on in all sports people, so get used to it, cause those people are always gonna be there. What you gotta do is concentrate on the good. In this case it would be that JJ brought Curlin back to race a 4 for our enjoyment. So can we stop being idiots and just enjoy Curlin, and BB, while there still here.

LDP 07 Aug 2008 7:57 PM

Steve,

You write beautifully and you will get many responses to this blog because people feel passionately about these two horses.  

Yes, it has once again been taken back to Dutrow.  I truly wonder how differently things would have been had Dutrow not had Big Brown.

How differently people would have felt and how differently things would have turned out for Big Brown.  I cannot get behind a trainer who lacks any kind of class or sportsmanship.  He is an embarrassment to this sport, particularly with his remarks about the "Jap Horse" and the "Godzilla" thing and "foregone conclusion".  He disappeared after the Belmont disaster and the "forgone conclusion".  He was mighty humble in his interviews before the Haskell and there were only a couple as I'm sure Ivarone is doing most of the talking now which he should have done since the beginning.

As for the horse, yes he was pretty amazing in the Derby and the Preakness, the Belmont, well we all know what happened there but, Steve, do you really think he would have won the Haskell had there been better competition in it?  I don't think so.  Ivarone didn't want to go to the Travers, why do you think?  The Haskell was easier.  They worked him on the turf for his feet.  That's not good.  He's also steriod free now.  Has it made a difference?  Who knows?  One thing is for sure, he has bad feet.  They shouldn't be running him.  Had he won the Belmont, he would be retired.  They need to have him go out a winner but I think they should just retire him to save his poor feet.

Dutrow taunts Jackson because Jackson doesn't want to run on synthetic.  I hope Mr. Jackson changes his mind.  Curlin is a healthy sound horse and I don't think synthetic surface will bother him.

But then, I don't know the horse, they do. On the other hand, it appears that that BB's connections don't really want any part of Curlin or they would meet at the end of the month.  Perfect race for the two of the them.  They know Curlin would be the toughest horse they faced and they can't risk it, instead, Dutrow will jab him in the press and say BB is better because Curlin was beaten by a girl in a race the BB came in dead last.  What about that?  Oh, I forgot, it was the shoe, it was the starter, it was the heat, it was his feet, it was the jock.  I've never seen so many excuses for a horse losing.  

In all honesty, I don't think Big Brown will make it to the classic.  They don't know if he can run on synthetic either, that's a big gamble because he will be facing older horses for the first time and good older horses not non-grade one winners.

By the way, I would love to commend you on the wonderful pre-derby daily articles!  They are wonderful!

MonicaV 07 Aug 2008 7:58 PM

Steve,

I really enjoy reading your articles and your responses to people's comments. You handle everything with class and dignity.

Keep up the good work!

Melissa 07 Aug 2008 8:04 PM

Mr. Haskin,

It all goes back to a GREAT horse can run on anything!!!! I hate synthetic tracks!! However, if Curlin, Big Brown are true champs they, to me, should be able to run on dirt, turf, fake tracks, gravel, pavement, concrete, etc. Being from HS, I watched Curlin in the Rebel, AR Derby and have been with him throughout. He is a champ. He would smoke BB!!! BB is just on top of a weak 3yo crop!!!! Last year's 3yo's were way better and CURLIN BEAT OLDER HORSES!!!!! Also even if BB was better Kent would get him beat and then cry about it like a little baby on national tv.

Rusty O. 07 Aug 2008 8:12 PM

Alright! you go Steve!!! I agree with you that one race doesn't usually prove anything and a lot of the talk about Rick belongs on the other blog by Jason. Course some people saw it a throw down and that's probably what generated the comments. Plus it's gotten pretty difficult to separate the horses from the mudslinging going on. I kind of can't figure what else is generating all of this polarization that I don't think is good for racing. You could always do like one of your colleagues and edit the comments and then respond directly to the commentor via email. You're pretty openminded and brave to do it this way. Bet it's irritating to have your words twisted though. I bought into it too from another poster and responded to someone who tried to connect it to the days of old that you write about so well (well not that far back).  

JordanA 07 Aug 2008 8:15 PM

As I quoted before on Jason Shandler's blog: To my mind, the type of surface should not deter the aims of a true champion. However it's easy for me to say as I hold no ownership stake in either horse.

Much like how Astroturf once took over major league baseball before owners went back to building "Old style ballparks", synthetic racing surfaces are here for now. Soon the breeding sheds will take synthetic surfaces into account. We'll be looking to see how someone's sire fared on Polytrack.

I'd like to see Big Brown and Curlin hook up. I'm not holding my breath and also one race would not be enough to settle the debate.

Myself, I think Curlin is better but the beauty of horse racing is that these debates live on with new horses thrown into the mix each year.

Maybe if there's a Strat-O-Matic type of horseracing game, then people could set up a "Racing World Series" that could include a dirt race, turf race, and one over a synthetic surface. I'm sure computer programmers have already "raced them" in simulated races.

In the meantime, there are thousands of races to handicap. Time to hit the books everybody!

Alex 07 Aug 2008 8:28 PM

As I have heard many old timers say "A good horse will run over broken beer bottles". Any horse that will let a track beat him is a notch below the best. I like Curlin's chances better.

twocorgis 07 Aug 2008 8:34 PM

Thanks, Melissa. I'm all for differences of opinions as long as the exchanges are civil and there is some thought process involved. All those Dutrow haters who call people names and accuse them of defending Dutrow obviously have never heard of the expression "pot calling the kettle black." They're doing the same thing they're accusing Dutrow of doing. So, if they despise Dutrow, what do they think of themselves?

Monica, I really can't say what Big Brown would have done against better compeition until I see what Coal Play does in his next start. Maybe he's just getting really good right now. Who knows? That's why I said let's wait for Big Brown's next race to get a better idea where he is. Point Given looked very ordinary in the Haskell, but came back and ran a monster race in the Travers. Same with Curlin in the Haskell and JC Gold Cup. It's all about progression.

Things might very well have been different had someone else trained Big Brown, but do are you referring to popularity or performance? I certainly cant imagine the horse performing any better for another trainer.

And just to clear this up. I am a fan of both Big Brown and Curlin. As a writer I try to remain as objective as possible, and just hope the best horse wins. Both are gifted horses and if they were to meet I would root for a good race before I would root for any one of them to beat the other.

Steve Haskin 07 Aug 2008 8:36 PM

Some people react to the name Dutrow the same way Lou Costello reacted when he heard the words "Niagara Falls." Those individuals consistently engage in the same kind of mindless blathering they profess to detest in him...go figger, Steve. :)

I was impressed by Big Brown's Haskell for his display of courage and heart.  That was an ingredient his detractors demanded when he dominated the Florida Derby, the KD and the Preakness...the refrain then was:  untested!  His opponents are less than mediocre...who's he beating?

To me, the horse was in a no-win situation to win over detractors in the Haskell.  If he blew the doors off the race and won by 10, gearing down - then the opposition would have been declared weak, or worse.  He runs a very gutty Haskell and runs down a very tough on the day, Coal Play, off a layoff and a traumatic experience in the Belmont, which just so happens to be the 3rd leg of the TC...and the detractors will still equivocate...

Unfortunately, alot of the distaste for Dutrow and to a lesser extent, IEAH, has bled over onto the horse...that's the only explanation I can come up with.

Then, when Curlin's name comes up...Curlin Nation stands up for their boy and denounces BB as a pretender, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

( of course, if one mentions Asmussen's less than stellar history with  meds...well, they may retort, at least he's not Dutrow!)

In a weird way, I think all of this "interest" and "passion" these two horses and their teams seem to evoke is very good for the sport...which leads me to my final point: (sorry for the long-winded run up.) The ultimate fan experience would be for them to meet in the BC Classic. Forget about the surface...it's not like they would be running in horsey space suits on the moon. Neither will be any more danger than usual running on dirt or turf.  Neither has an edge on the stuff.  Why not?

I think if there was a national poll asking the fans where they would want to see these two meet, the Classic would win hands down.

Unfortunately, I do not believe it gonna happen. With that in mind, I like your idea for the Clark.

One way or the other...this rivalry and endless debate about who is better than who should be settled on the track.

Steve G 07 Aug 2008 8:44 PM

Steve, You mentioned Rick Dutrow in your article and that is not a subject that too many people are neutral about.

Unfortunately you can't even mention Big Brown with out Dutrow coming up as the major focus and people seem to be all in, in one corner or the other no middle ground. He's seen to that. Of course, it's pretty hard to discuss a horse and leave the connections out of the picture no matter how hard you try to focus on the animal especially since the colt can't tell us what is really going on. As a trainer I wish mine could all the time, as a colleague of Ricky's I pray for it for his. I for one don't think one race tells the tale and I'm not ready to classify either of these horses with the likes of Secretariat or any of the great ones I've seen run or you have written about so well in previous articles. I definitely don't want a match race. Like Jordan said can you even imagine how devastating that would be to racing if something tragic happened? Also as he said and as we on the track know, this kind of 'my horse is better than yours' is what racing is all about. We usually take it to the track, but it still doesn't prove much cause the next race the other guy could win. As far as Ricky dissing you (as the kids say), well that's Ricky, not a very attractive feature. As far as 15 minutes of fame that's ridiculous, he just wasn't as bigmouthed about it because remember that was one race on one day. We all wondered how he would handle this high profile intense media and some tried to counsel him to err on the side of caution but it didn't work. As you quoted in your article, what Jess said is what a lot of us think, this isn't good for racing. I have recently come back on here to comment at the behest of some people asking for trainers or race trackers to comment. The funny thing is they just ignore us too, like they know more about it than we do, heck maybe they do, I don't think so though. I have talked at length on other blogs on here when people make outlandish statements that they know nothing about and have found it to be about as futile as you when you were trying to present a balance article and argument. I think some of the people on here are the kind that if we have them as an owner we want to throw up when we see them coming and the others are the kind we love to have. Guess which ones we stop working for as soon as we're able.

Atthebarn2 07 Aug 2008 8:46 PM

There are such strong opinions of these 2 horses. Why can't people appreciate both? They have different strengths. Curlin has a no-nonsense approach to his races - he gets out there and does his best. Most of the time that's been good enough to win, sometimes it hasn't. He's also proved himself in a world audience. Big Brown loves to run. When he's trained properly and the jockey leaves him alone, he's outta there. But he's been plagued by inconsistent training, a jockey who likes to prove himself by fighting to make the horse do what HE wants him to do and it's cost Big Brown. Both trainers have used steroids on their horses and both of them now say they've quit. Jess Jackson has done a great thing for the sport by allowing Curlin to continue racing, Mike Iavarone and IEAH are building an animal hospital and funding groups like ReRun. To quote the Joker in Batman 'Why can't we all just get along?'. Appreciate each horse for their strengths and give them room for their weaknesses.

Karen in Indiana 07 Aug 2008 9:00 PM

Steve,

Okay - you didn't use the term "good-hearted guy" per se - but in reviewing past articles and blogs where you've discussed Dutrow's continued obnoxious comments shows - in my opinion - an overall effort to give this guy a pass for every boorish comment.  You never have weighed in negatively on his behavior besides giving mild chastisement, a knowing writer's wink and instructions to readers to understand he just is what he is - for better or worse.

Well - it is worse.  Bad behavior isn't excusable when nothing is ever done to change.  You'd have thought the smackdown of the Belmont would have taught him a bit about public relations and humility - but no - he's right back at it and feeding it to an all too willing and eager media.

I know you really have admiration for Big Brown, and think he is a really special horse.  I'd think that - as such an admirer - you'd resent the horse's black mark on his reputation because of this guy.  No - it doesn't affect his record or his talent - only his popular appeal, but it is popularity with the mass audience that cements a horse in history.  

To just ignore Dutrow and his comments and push him into the anonymity he so richly deserves would be grand, but the simple fact is that you and every other reputable writer and reporter capture and relay every nasty or ludicrious comment.  Maybe the media should just not give him coverage on these kind of comments.  Cover the horse (he is the point of the story, after all)and when Dutrow opens his mouth and lets another bon mot of trash talk roll out (and he will - its like death and taxes) no one will quote him!  

I agree - this has become about a guy who doesn't deserve the coverage and not about a great potential match up between two horses.  Nuff said - let's get back to that!

Cgriff 07 Aug 2008 9:00 PM

Hey Steve. Interesting read, and the comments are equally so. If I had one aside, it's this: the suggestion of just ignoring Dutrow and he'll go away, so to speak, isn 't very feasible, and a little naive, sorry to say. It's the media that interviews him, and then prints/airs the comments. Personally, I have stopped reading any/all articles on Big Brown, for exactly that-I do not want to hear another word out of Dutrow's mouth. It's harder to do on a TV broadcast though, as there you are, watching, and eventually, hearing! He can only be ignored up to a point.

I did love Cgriff's post here. I too am weary of people seeming to "defend" Dutrow, when he's gotten well past the point of being defensible, IMO

I'd love a Curlin vs. Big Brown  match-up, whenever and wherever it took place. I also whole-heartedly believe that Curlin would hand BB his head. Let's hope it happens, regardless of how unlikely it may seem right now.

Keep burnin' up the blog-waves, Steve! We're readin' :)

LoveMyLava 07 Aug 2008 9:01 PM

Steve, your last comment on rooting for a good race, rather than one beating the other, proves why you have many fans. You are a true "horse racing" fan!

Loretta T. 07 Aug 2008 9:06 PM

That is a very good point made by Gail.  Why do these two great animals have to run against either.  Both of them held to their OWN merit (and not to some big mouth trainers ego) are good sound race proven horses and isn't that enough?  

Nicole 07 Aug 2008 9:07 PM

Hi Steve - love your writing. Let me join the nitpickers for a moment. I don't think we will see another "great" horse until they start "racing" them again.  A race every 3 months does not a great horse make.

It surprises me that the steroids have been swept under the carpet. BB was doing fine until taken off them.  Have always wondered about Secretariats fertility problems until some time had passed.

I love all the horses and just want to see them run "their" races.

Thanks for the space to ramble

NancyB 07 Aug 2008 9:22 PM

Steve, what a truly great piece. I want to thank you for being OBJECTIVE about Rick Dutrow. The vitriol about him is totally unwarranted. No, he isn't Mr. Charm/Personality but he cares about his horses and he is an excellent trainer. I admire him for that. I also admire him for turning his life around. Nothing Dutrow has said is so awful that he deserves the kind of nutty responses I have seen on some of these blogs. Frankly, I was kind of happy for him when BB won the Haskell. He was devastated when he lost the Belmont and it showed. It's clear he has issues in the way he relates to people but I take what he says with a grain of salt and let it go. I AM part of the viewing public and for me, it's about the horse, period.

I was interested in your comments about what might be wrong with BB, assuming there is something wrong. I think he is a wonderful horse and I hope they can cure what ails him so he can run again before they retire him. Thanks again for a nice perspective on BB AND Rick Dutrow.

Paula Higgins 07 Aug 2008 9:37 PM

Amen Steve, I would root for a good race as well. But as I read these comments, a thought strikes me. Do the Fans really deserve these two horses running together? I think BB should run his Philly Derby, (I'll be there again.)Curlin his Woodward, then on to the BC. Then, retire BB because I think his feet will warrant it, and Curlin? I think he should hang around a while....

No showdown - No matchrace. Then on to the 2 yr. olds so these "wonderful fans" can pick another trainer and horse to bash.... It wouldn't be so hard to stomach all the bashing if it were fair. But there are trainers out there that these fans know and admire, that have many many more drug violations, suspensions, kill buyers hanging around their barns, and are as rude as Dutrow can be, it's just not printed, or people just ignore it. I just don't get it. And I'm supposed to figure out how to better market a sport with fans spewing this drivel.....in public forum?

normajean81258 07 Aug 2008 9:38 PM

Just read some of Gary Steven's book: he told what a nightmare the Haskell was for Point Given: the horse wasn't quite himself, he was in trouble at the gate, confusing instructions from BB, etc. Seems that the money with the Haskell often is too tempting to pass up, whether the dominating spring classic horses are ready or not. Don't care for Dutrow, but thought that he tried to edit himself before the race the best he knows how.  I know plenty of trainers and horsemen who are great horse people, but not people people.  

starred chestnut 07 Aug 2008 9:47 PM

I really enjoy reading everything you write.  Maybe it's because I always agree with you.  That's certainly the case again today.  I'm actually responding, though, because I'm wishing that people who are down on Big Brown because of Dutrow could put things in perspective.  Dutrow never brags about himself.  He talks about how is horses are doing.  And everything he said about Curlin after the Haskell is true.   Curlin did not win the Kentucky Derby.  Curlin did not win the Haskell.  And Curlin WAS beaten by a filly.   Despite all these facts and the fact that some of Curlin's owners have  some "legal" problems, people still hold Curlin in high regard and he was voted Horse Of The Year.  Why can't we just love Big Brown the same way?  I think ALL horses deserve to be loved no matter what the people around them do. I'm a big fan of Curlin AND Big Brown and think it would be fun if they could eventually meet, but I do not care which one wins as long as they are safe.

jazznmimi 07 Aug 2008 10:03 PM

Steve,

Big Brown received one of the loudest standing ovations you ever heard because people remember the Kentucky Derby and in this dying industry they are looking for something, anything to pin their dreams of another super horse on. I love the sport but it is dying. As for Dutrow, where was he this time last week making these comments? If he was so confident in his horse he would make them all the time. Actually where were these comments at any point since the Belmont? Nowhere, and now it seems he has ignored that fact that he was life and death to win against one of the worst Haskell field in years, he has vocally jumped back on his bandwagon. Your reaction to these comments, is most disappointing. You can say that's Dutrow being Dutrow and I have no problem with because anyone that knows horseracing can see him for what he really is, but you saw nothing about it being bad for the sport. Did you ever see the great trainers of the past who had proven champions talk that way, Mack Miller, Lukas, etc? The fact is this is the Dutrow/IEAH show to live up to the $50 million in breeding rights. Of course that price was based on the superhorse performances when he was on steroids. Do you think they would have gotten that much if he didn't win that way? Now that he is off them (no injections since after running in the Preakness), no one seems to notice the correlation between running steroid-free and his poor performances. The will run him in a turf race that he can't lose and then onto the Breeders' Cup where they know there is a very good chance Curlin will not show up. It's all good. Continue to ignore his declining form and make excuses, just like Street Sense last year, you will bet him down and hopefully some of the smarter bettors will find the improving horse like Curlin to bet this year.  But don't worry after you throw your ticket down, you'll have the polytrack to blame it on. LOL.

Vincent Reo 07 Aug 2008 10:08 PM

interesting blogs and great article, i love to read your blogs steves. in my opition curlin will beat big brown in any race they'll meet. i saw and the're off episode were you said that the filly in california, i think is zenata should run in the classic instead of the ditaff, but i think the classic is been set for a upset and will be beating on student council to win this years classic it should be good money. when are you going to do a blog on the breeders cup division and contenders.

josue555 07 Aug 2008 10:10 PM

I think CGriff makes a good point about sportsmanship and the willingness of people to put their horses into situations that may not be tailor-made for them so the game itself will benefit.  A good example of this is the time Martha Gerry ran Forego against Honest Pleasure on a muddy track that Forego hated.  The big horse spun his wheels around Belmont that day, but somehow Shoemaker got Forego to the wire first with a furious charge to run down the loose-on-the-lead Honest Pleasure.  Now, neither Mrs. Gerry nor Frank Whiteley could have been very confident at the outset of the race since Forego had some well know infirmities which made it very difficult to find his best stride on off tracks.  However, they went ahead and competed.  The afterglow of that race gave Forego legendary status which he richly deserved.  Not only did he overcome adversity, but he did so carrying half the grandstand on his back as well.  That kind of willingness to challenge your own horse as well as the others set Mrs. Gerry and Mr. Whiteley apart.  I only wish Mr. Jackson would consider this when he makes his decision about whether or not to run in the BC Classic.

Bill 07 Aug 2008 10:13 PM

Great article Steve! I agree with your assessment!  What a confusing year for racing! I do hope they meet on a dirt surface but I doubt we'll see it.  I am really wondering about the comment though by people who keep saying "great horses can run on anything..."  That would seem to indicate that if either of them lose on a synthetic then they aren't great horses.  BUT what great horses are everyone referring to?  Synthetics didn't exist when the greats of the past were running and very few of them ever ran on turf-only dirt. So what "anything" were they running on?  Doesn't make sense to me - just a random statement that doesn't apply.  Kinda like people saying "great" horses can overcome ANYTHING.  But not really - or ALL the "great" horses in the past would have retired undefeated-then they truly would have overcome EVERYTHING. Another random statement that sounds good but isn't true.  Do you agree?  By the way, I recently got your newest book - it was excellent!!!  Thanks for all the great writing!

Racingfan 07 Aug 2008 10:29 PM

I'm going to repeat a comment that I said in an earlier blog. I've been watching all the great ones since I was a kid starting with the mighty Kelso. And I believe that Curlin can/will be mentioned with all the great ones.

Look, I can't recall any other horse accomplishing what he did in the span of 9 months. Break his maiden at first try in February, and win the BC Classic and HOTY in November. The greatest trainer of my lifetime, Allen Jerkens summed it up best when he said of Curlin after his BC triumph "he's not one in a million, he's one in a zillion" to achieve what he did in such a short span of time. And the "Chief" has been training winners and seen the best of the best since 1950. Enough said.

Saratoga AJ 07 Aug 2008 11:08 PM

Dutrow has had wonderful horses before, including HOTY Saint Liam. Was he saying stupid stuff then, or did the media just not quote him? If he wasn't saying stupid stuff, then indeed he can control his mouth and now he's choosing not to. Very boorish. You can express love and admiration for your horse without dumping on the horses of others (who love and admire their charges too). Now, on topic. I think both horses would run well on synthetic (assuming Brown is right -- feet? teeth? something). However, it would be hard for me to dog either set of connections for choosing not to run on an untested synthetic track.

Tiznowbaby 07 Aug 2008 11:09 PM

you folks have written another South Pacific here...keep up the good work...LLTK & The Dirt!!!

Bellwether 07 Aug 2008 11:30 PM

One of the authors in your blog stable wrote a very interesting post questioning the "gospel" that synthetic tracks are safer for racehorses.  As I recall (and I could be wrong), the  doubt arises with the fact synth. surface does not allow the horse's foot to "slide" ever so slightly as it would on a natural dirt track.

The column brought to mind the long-ago excitement over astroturf being installed on football fields.  Only years later did anyone finally admit it was causing numerous career-shortening injuries.

Considering the value of both horses, and the uncertainty of the still-uninstalled track surface, avoiding the Classic might be the smartest idea for both trainers.

Harrison 08 Aug 2008 12:02 AM

I truly believe Big Brown's Haskell win was good and he should be given merit. What about Street Sense winning the Travers over Grasshopper by smaller margin than BB's win? He was considered the same after that race, unlike Big Brown. Grasshopper was an allowance winner as Coal Play was, so I don't see a difference. As to Curlin, he's a great horse that needs to prove nothing. I do believe he should meet Big Brown in the classic and let the best one win, but winning the BC Turf wouldn't be that bad either. A match in the Clark sounds like a great idea if they don't meet in the BC. And if they never meet, they'll still be great horses in racing history, at least for me.

Omar 08 Aug 2008 12:12 AM

To be honest Steve all of this is a bit silly.  Its very simple the Breeder's Cup Championship takes place at the end of October and Big Brown having never run on the stuff is going to win the crown and HOY.

If he wins he IS HOY.  Period end of story. Curlin won his Championship in the mud... you didn't see any owners scratching their horses because the track wasn't to their liking. This years race is on a Poly surface if Curlin is all that start training him and getting him ready for the Poly and quit whining.  The fact is Jackson only wants to run him on dirt and dirt only... well we can't always have our way can we.  He ran him on turf... why not get him started on Poly ?  Mr. Jackson Curlin is not the best unless he faces the best 3 year old he is only the best OLDER horse.  The connections for Big Brown have given you a 3 months notice get ready for the Breeder Cup because we will be there.  If you choose not to defend the title you are DUCKING Big Brown plain and simple.

draynay 08 Aug 2008 12:23 AM

Hey Steve,

I understand your progression theory but I truly think there is something wrong with Big Brown.  I watched the interview with Dutrow and the cockiness and sureness he had was gone.  He used the phrase "if he doesn't run well" or words like that.  Training him on grass because of his feet.  I don't think the horse is doing all that well.  He sure wasn't the same horse we saw in May.  Maybe his terrible Belmont was a sign of something wrong that has not been found.  He wasn't racing against really good horses in the Haskell and for a few moments I thought he'd be second.  There is something going on there.  KD was whipping him and I never had to do that before.

I truly hope the horse is okay but

it all seems very strange to me.  He had a brilliant spring campaign but he just isn't the same horse.  That is just my opinion of course.

MonicaV 08 Aug 2008 12:34 AM

Oh, these "fans."  So many of them on this blog are starting to remind me of seeing a WWWF match on TV where fans jeer and boo at whoever they perceive to be the villain, only in this case, they're transferring villain status to the animals vicariously through their connections.  Both horses, Curlin and Big Brown, are tremendous animals, but the way people take sides in this issue, so venomously, is not only childish, it makes me wonder what they're REALLY angry about.  Surely, they can't really be that down on a horse!  I for one am a Big Brown fan, but I love them both, and I, too, just want a great race.  Steve, it's too confusing to repeat, but I like your scenario on how to hook them up!

Brownfan 08 Aug 2008 12:48 AM

Steve, sorry for bringing this up when you said Rick wasn’t the subject at hand. However he, his remarks and his horse are forever linked in our minds. What gets to most of us who train alongside him everyday is this strange need he has to drag all of us into his world, knowing he can push just so far before we push back,enough is enough. Racetrackers don’t usually do what he does and Mr. Jackson is correct, it’s not good for racing. It creates negativity in the minds of the casual or TC, BC only fans. Yes Steve, he just talks, but a  lot of people listen & take it for the gospel this proved it like:

PAULA, Re-read Steve's responses. He said he didn't defend Rick & how disrespectful Rick was to him. Well he’s done it to a bunch of us. He hasn’t just called out the Curlin connections he’s called out a lot of his colleagues, all on public record. You have your opinion of him, yet no one else is entitled to theirs? You talk about the vitriol spewed at him,he spews freely himself. If you don’t know from whence you speak, then don’t speak at all.  You don’t want to hear negative comments, then don’t call people out with your uninformed opinion. You want to know what a wonderful person he is,read the first person accounts of his behavior. You said he’s turned his life around,how? He just had another drug positive, lied by omission to his owners and again insulted his colleagues in a public forum. His personal issues  affect his professional behavior, that is the only reason that aspect continues to be mentioned.  Is he a good horseman, yes. You said you are part of the viewing public if that’s all you are interested in then reserve YOUR comments on his comments and behavior towards his fellow trainers. Trust me you wouldn’t like to hear it from your colleagues. I’d venture that your profession’s comments don’t make it into the newspapers or get made fun of on ESPN. Or for that fact are discussed in a public forum.

Norma Jean, once again you represent yourself to be in the know or involved in racing. Those are some pretty strong comments you made. You know all of your statements to be facts? I can’t think of too many of the people you are talking about.Even though we have our battles in racing we don’t usually air them in public, denigrate our colleagues or other horses with no provocation. Rick has chosen to do so to a lot of us. I think that give us ample provocation to respond. I’m not as good humored as Nick or Wayne or as well spoken as Jess I think I’ll side with David, Gary, and some of the many others that he has called out and embarrassed while he embarrassed our industry along with it. I suggest to both of you & others on here, don't get angry for the negative comments, don’t get angry for the positive comments.Better yet don’t even talk about him pro or con unless you know Rick first hand.

Whatamidoing 08 Aug 2008 12:55 AM

Thanks for a thought provoking, well worded article! I know the Big Brown connections will get blasted for "dodging" Curlin.  However, I personally believe that Big Brown is not ready, and won't be in a month, to face Curlin.  Curlin is a mature, nicely seasoned racehorse running at the top of his game.  Big Brown could use another race under him before he takes a big step up in class.  As far as the BC races being on a synthetic surface, well it just is what it is.  It is still the Breeders Cup, meant to be the showcase of the sport, and regardless of your feeling for the surface, you should show up and run.  If your horse performs poorly everyone will throw the race out anyways.  But to not show up proves nothing at all.  I still hope for a Curlin/BB match up on BC day, either the Classic or the Turf.  But if not, I like your suggestion too.  To not have these 2 wonderful horses meet somewhere, sometime will be very disappointing!

Runfast159 08 Aug 2008 12:59 AM

I know about BB's history of foot troubles, but is there anything current which backs up the numerous statements about "bad feet"? I thought the Haskell was a very gutsy race for BB,and he showed the heart of a champion. It may be that this years crop of three yearolds isn't stellar, but he has beaten all of them each time he has raced..except for the Belmont..a race still hard to explain although I feel it was a combo of circumstances beyond the horse's control. Give the horse his due ! And Dutrow doesn't affect my pleasure in watching BB run..in fact he seemed so subdued prior to the Haskell that I missed his confident bluster. His manner is not mine, but I don't find him that offensive. Oh, do we know how many other thoroughbreds who have raced in this years TC were ever given steroids also? I am very glad that the sport is moving away from the meds. The horse comes first!

Diane D 08 Aug 2008 1:54 AM

Steve, I think this is a no-win subject. It evokes strong feelings from both points of view.

Apparently no one can separate the horse from the trainer,  just like Larry Jones said on here a couple months ago.  People express their feelings, then get  slammed by people who don’t like the negative comments, which is kind of hypocritical because they are doing some heavy duty slamming themselves.

I can tell this has motivated people who would probably never speak out in a million years, to feel a need to defend themselves and their sport, I’ve seen it on  other blogs. I know if I was a trainer or an owner like Mr. Jackson, I’d be really angry about some of the blanket statements made on here by people who are clueless as to what really goes on. Some think they can say what they want, make whatever accusations pop into their heads and no one should get angry. The fact is Dutrow continues to throw down the gauntlet and say very negative things about his industry, he opens himself up for the backlash. Then you get people on here like Norma Jean who throws out these statements without having firsthand information, yet presenting it like she is in the know, that incites the people who  are in racing and read these comments to react to people like her. She’s spouting rumors and suppositions others are commenting on quotes and documented information. Who comes off as ignorant here Norma Jean. I think a new subject is called for here it seems a shame to continue to define the sport  with more negativity.

JordanA 08 Aug 2008 8:37 AM

As I've mentioned before , its nice to have a column where we can express our thoughts and hear the various comments.

I, for one, do not think a meeting between BB and Curlin would solve anything. I think it would raise more questions than answers.  As we know, on any one given day, anyone can win , anyone can lose. Suppose both horse's were to meet at The Breeders Cup , and neither won, would we then say, the track had something to do with it?

Does it really matter if one horse is better than the other ? What if one of them got injured , you know for sure you'd hear a million naysayers. I say, let each horse run its own schedule without the pressure from outside. Tiz better to leave a question in someone's mind who might be the better , than to provoke controversy.

We all know what Curlin has done already, does he have to proven anything to anyone , whereas BB has some catching up to do , to say he is in the same category as Curlin.

We only have 4 months left to the end of the year and a new crop of three year olds will surface , BB will be off to breeding land , and his legacy will always remain The Belmont ; a match race won't erase that memory from people's minds, cause they'll always say

" what if " .

UCLinden 08 Aug 2008 9:05 AM

Steve,

Great article. I must say though I always look at speed figures as anly a piece of the puzzle when handicaping.I know all the top outfits rely on these figures when purchasing horses, but If they were so reliable all you would have to do to make money in this game would be to bet or buy only horse with the highest numbers.Big Brown,on paper,raced against a mediocre field and visually it was a very underwhelming performance.I believe the observance of veteran horseman is probably more reliable than any unscientific figure.

MikeM 08 Aug 2008 9:20 AM

MikeM, How right you are about the veteran horseman's comments about the underwhelming performance. Unforturnately. The folks on here not in the industry feel this bizarre need to tell everybody what to think about a variety of subjects that they really know absolutely NOTHING about. PURE SPECULATION unless you're attending to your RACE HORSES this morning folks. I don't think I'd be telling the surgeon how to remove that tumor, just like a lot of these folks on here shouldn't be trying to tell race track people what to think about one of their own or tell them and the world the why's and wherfores of how the horses ran or will run. Seems kind of strange to me.IMHO

Bradgm 08 Aug 2008 9:57 AM

Steve, as always, I look forward eaglerly for your comments and articles regarding the horses. I agree with your comments regarding Dutrow. Dutrow is Dutrow, a gifted trainer, passionate about his horses (which he should be). I think everyone should step back and enjoy these magnificent horses for themselves and not let connections color their perceptions of the horses. I admit at first I did the same, but we can all learn.  IEAH is doing some wonderful things for the horses. All of BB's connections really love the horses.

On a different note, I really enjoy your books. The story you related about John Henry and "his" comments about his life and mother were fascinating.  I wish IEAH would have someone talk to BB. Maybe BB would share what is going on.

I love Curlin and BB and I am thrilled that I have the opportunity to witness the accomplishments of both of these very gifted horses. Thank you to Mr. Jackson and IEAH!

Katherine

Katherine Cyrier 08 Aug 2008 10:01 AM

CGriff, what is wrong with mild chastisement? I am neither judge nor jury and I am not going to chastise someone in a heated manner when the rest of the world is doing such a good job at it. I point out his bad points and his good points. To me, that is sufficient. No one is all bad, regardless of what you may think. Well, maybe Stalin, Hitler, and Saddam Hussein, but I'm not ready to put Mr. Dutrow in that category for mouthing off. I do agree with you you about not using his quotes, but if one writer uses his quotes everyone will. Newspapers are in competition and no one wants to be the only one without the quotes. Most readers want to read them -- you know the old train wreck analogy.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 10:04 AM

Nancy, I agree with what you say, and it is not nitpicking. We need horses to race. I dont feel the steroids issue regarding Big Brown has been swept under the carpet. We actually have Dutrow to thank for bringing out in the open. You wouldnt believe the percentage of horses today who are on steroids. Curlin certainly was on them, and another major stable uses them on all their horses and more often than Big Brown used them. Steroids goes way back, even with many of those great French fillies that used to knock off the colts all the time. If you minimize Big Brown's accomplishments because he took Winstrol once a month, trust me, you'd re-evaluate your opinion of many past champions.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 10:13 AM

Thanks, Paula, for at least providing a voice of reason on the other side. As you said, what Dutrow has done does not warrant the extreme hatred that is being exhibited by the vast majority of people. Some of his actions deserve a degree of animosity, but not to this extent.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 10:19 AM

Excellent post, Norma Jean. And you're right about some trainers being a lot more rude than Dutrow. There are some trainers who have mood swings you wouldnt believe. But when you have to deal with them, you accept any personality flaws they may have and just try to catch them at the right time. The public may look at them as simply trainers who dish out quotes, but, like all of us, they are complex and have their flaws. You just deal with it.

I will address some of the other comments later on.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 10:26 AM

Mr. Haskin, I like your articles on the horses. But you, like so many speaking on here, are an outsider. You have no idea how much this infighting damages our sport, offends and affects us, or maybe you do. To you guys it's like you said, a train wreck you can't stop watching, to us it's like being on the train.

katsan 08 Aug 2008 10:31 AM

Bill, what an owner does with a 7-year-old gelding is not the same as what an owner does with a horse that is worth $40-50 million. There were no Three Chimneys or Darley or Lane's End breathing down Mrs. Gerry's neck making sure she did nothing to hurt their investment.  Unfortunately, it's different game today.

Jazznmimi, you make an excellent point that Dutrow only brags about his horses, never himself. He said on numerous occasions that anyone can train Big Brown. Oops, I did it again. I guess that will bring forth another firestorm of criticism.

CGriff, you write: "Okay - you didn't use the term "good-hearted guy" per se." Then, why did you say I did? You can disagree with any comments I make or even any opinions I have, but you should generalize them and not use specific comments that I never said. I do, however, appreciate your thoughts and opinions in general.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 10:39 AM

Great comments Steve----You confirmed what I said on a recent blog.---What's wrong with Big Brown?---probably nothing, at least nothng to be overly concerned about.  Monmouth can be a tough track for come-from-behinders when trying to catch a good speed horse.  I believe Coal Play was basically finished with a 1/16th to go.  BB still had a lot left and proved it by the way he guttged out the win (it almost looked like he was just getting going).  To me he ran like a horse that wasn't going to be beaten---the time was very good---he would have won by 8-12 lengths going 1-1/4M.  I believe there are some soundness issues but given proper timing they can be overcome---saying that I still believe Curlin is the better horse.  However, given the opportunity who knows how good BB might turn out to be...What really impressed me about his Derby and Preakness wins was when they showed camera footage from behind the horse when he drew off in the stretch (his tremendous acceration and leg action)---it's too bad his trainer isn't more likeable because I wonder how many people are actually against the horse because of him.

lazmannick 08 Aug 2008 10:52 AM

I guess Rick must not have been the only trainer who shut you out. My guess is if any of the rest of our fraternity are reading this you may get the cold shoulder from a lot of us. The people you commend for their excellent posts have no insight into what really goes on, I've figured out that you have only a biased viewpoint. Sad you feel the need to attack what provides you with a livelihood and support people who may never read another article on here again. Wait I think you inspired that of a couple dozen of us racing people too.

Atthebarn2 08 Aug 2008 10:54 AM

Your article is great. I feel the same as you regarding Dutrow.  He just tells the truth as he sees it when asked a question.  Once the press found this out, they just kept setting him up to say some not so 'classy' things.  What they can't take away from him, is that he is a very good trainer and he knows his horses better than anyone.  If he thinks Big Brown can beat Curlin, then Curlin fans better watch out.  What I am wondering, is what would have happened in the Belmont if Big Browns jockey had not given up on him and kept urging him to run like he did in the Haskell?

WONDERING 08 Aug 2008 10:54 AM

Tiznowbaby, Dutrow has always talked this way, but he's never been in this bright a spotlight and he hasnt done it to this extent, because he wasnt as passionate about those horses as he is about Big Brown. He was passionate, but not quite like this.

Good point about great horses, RacingFan. I agree that most could run well on anything, but they obviously werent at their best on certain days or they would have been undefeated.

Monica, you may very well be right that Big Brown is not the same horse we saw in May. But neither was Seattle Slew and Affirmed after their Triple Crown campaigns. Both did, however, return to have great 4-year-old campaigns. The Triple Crown takes a lot out of a horse.

Jordan, this isn't intended to be a win or no-win situation. It's all about opinions. No one is going to win or lose. Just as long as the opinions, as I mentioned earlier, are delivered in a civil, intelligent manner.

Thanks, Katherine. Can you imagine the things Big Brown would have to say. I'd be happy if he just told us what was bothering him in the Belmont.

Katsan, who is "us" and who is "you?" Am I an "us" or a "you?" And I don't know what you mean about being an outsider. If I am an outsider then who are the insiders? do you mean trainers, owners, breeders, and racing officials? I thought I was referring to "you" guys when I said train wreck, not "us" guys. Also, you never mentioned what your solution is to prevent further damage to the sport. Stop infighting? Right now, I see only one major combatant -- Rick Dutrow. Those who respond to him with such venom also become combatants, right?

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 11:06 AM

Atthebarn, do you actually think you're making sense? You dont say how I am biased or who I have attacked? And your comments are based on nothing at all. I get along with all trainers. And Dutrow not wishing to comment on a work other than one or two stock lines, I dont consider shutting me out. I did not call him after that because he didnt want to deal with the press and wasnt talking to anyone. In person, we speak freely. Dont make it sound as if I had some personal vendetta against him. You keep mentioning your fraternity. Why dont you identify yourself. If you are a trainer, who knows, maybe I've heard of you. And I'm sorry to hear that so many people who have responded on here have no insight to what really goes on. I'm sure they'd appreciate your comment. Come to think of it, better not let them know who you are.

Steve Haskin 08 Aug 2008 11:23 AM

Hi all -

nice discussion.  I like Steve's suggestion of the Clark.  NOT as a match race, since they seem to do everything except accurately test the 2 horses involved most of the time, but as a regular race over a surface they've both use as a launching pad.  Who knows?  Maybe Curlin and BB will run each other silly and somebody else will come along and pick up the pieces in the last furlong.  But anyway you look at it, what a nice way to end up the year!

Like so many others I was hoping BB would head to Saratoga for the Woodward.  I can see that final turn on a late summer afternoon now......the entire grounds on its feet......voices rising....ah well.  Not to be.

I agree with Mr. Jackson's doubts about Santa Anita.  To me this doesn't seem to be about dirt vs. turf vs. synthetic, rather it's about an UNTRIED surface.  And an untried surface that's replacing one that was a disaster.  

BB remains an enigma.  I did like what I saw in the last fraction of the Haskell.  For whatever reason it took him a long time to get in gear, but that gear is worth waiting for.  I rewatched the Florida Derby and the Preakness after the Haskell and to my novice eye it looks like he's not running "loose" anymore.  Either something hurts or something is off balance or maybe he's getting sour or maybe he and his jockey are out of sync, but he just doesn't look smooth.

Curlin working at Saratoga the other day, though, geez.  On his toes, eager, cooperative, and ready to fly.  Or, as Red Smith once wrote of Raise a Native when he was training at Saratoga "when he moved down the backstretch, the trees swayed......."  What a horse!

And isn't the bottom line that it's great that racing has these horses to talk about, plus the great stories like Evening Attire?

s lee 08 Aug 2008 11:41 AM

Definitely agree with RacingFan re "great horses".  To date, I cannot think of any horse which has shown near equal proficiency on dirt,turf and poly.  Perhaps, one will come along some day, but it will take a very special individual indeed.  I think that certain types of mechanics or running actions lend themselves to each type of surface and then there are so many variations of each type of surface.  It boggles the mind to think of what kind of horse it would take to master all three.

Bill 08 Aug 2008 11:50 AM

Thanks Steve for an insightful look at Big Brown's run in the Haskell. I figured once the race was analyzed by the experts, it would turn out to be a pretty durn good effort on Big Brown's part. No horse EVER seems to run away with anything in that race. It's always a wondeful test.  By the way, maybe if Rick Dutrow was capable of thoughtful type thinking, he could enlist Mr N