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Well, in all honesty, with as awesome as Storm Cat has been on thoroughbred breeding, I must say I'm tired of seeing all of the sons & daughters of him everywhere! There are Storm Cat sons and grandsons standing in almost every state & province it seems. We wonder why the thoroughbred has become as fragile as it seems now compared to years ago, I think it's a result of a lot of inbreeding. And the fact that so many horses are offspring of this one stallion seems to be a problem in my mind. The line needs some new blood, strong genes, good solid stock, and to me that means getting away from only one main stallion.

Maybe it's time to look elsewhere, until the next big ND-line sire comes along.  How about looking to A.P. Indy, for stamina and soundness?  He's still young enough for a few good years, and I've not heard much complaining about him.

• Scot's reply: Tony, you're absolutely right -- we're going to be hearing a whole lot more from A.P. Indy over the next several years.  He's a pedigree influence that seems to bring both stamina and soundness.

it's hard to believe that storm cat is retiring but as everything else time moves on, but we still have his influence with his son and daughter much like the past. his sons include forestry, giants causeway, they are also making a name for themselves, in light of the questions surrounding eight belles breakdown i hope the breeders be alot more thoughtful when planning future breeding, as a former breeder it takes alot of research and planning to make a good baby.

There is no question these two sires have contributed a great deal but sires come and go and some like these two leave a great legacy, but the gene pool has to change at some pointand that is how you get new blood lines and hopefully get new sires that will some day put there stamp on the thourghbred and be sire of sires stallions cant breed forever. time for new blood.

Sadly in magazines like Bloodhorse there is not information about racing in the less racing developed countries like Colombia. Here stood KABORI - USA (Northern Dancer - Enduring by First Landing),leader in stallions statistics for 8 years and also leading broodmare sire for 9 years. And more recently ELECTION DAY (IRE) (Sadler's Wells - Hellenic by Darshaan) leading sire through the last five years and now  covering at Mexico and Chile. Please open some space for racing at the all world.

• Scot's reply:  In my daily work, I interact with the folks at The Jockey Club and BRIS and even with colleagues at Thoroughbred Times and The Australian Bloodhorse Review and other publications both local and international. The Blood-Horse reports on racing worldwide, but includes statistical information only for those countries where data are complete, accurate, and relevant.  If you can recommend sources for information that you don't find in the magazine, please email; I'd enjoy discussing with you.

 In addition to AP Indy and his sons -- Mineshaft, Aptitude, and Bernardini, I think Danzig line sires will become increasingly important as synthetic surfaces become more common and as soundness becomes more of an issue.  Look for Hard Spun, Exchange Rate, War Front, Langfuhr, etc. to become more important as sires and broodmare sires.

Yeesh...it's really hard to believe that both of them are beind retired! I know Storm Cat's time was coming, but...wow. Well, he has more than plenty sons and daughters to carry on his legacy! Goodness, what a horse Northern Dancer was. So many excellent sons! Not to mention daughters. :)

It's hard to say what direction breeders should take with regards to inbreeding. Great Britain has so much Dancer influence through Sadler's Wells and a host of others. N.A. has all the Storm Cat blood and Australia is having the same issue with Danehill. It would be good to restrict the number of mares a stallion can breed to get more usage from sires with not quite as sexy pedigrees but nobody likes being told what to do.( including me)  

There is no doubt these two stallions have made a lasting impact on the breed and the sport.

However, did Storm Cat or Sandler Wells directly sire a Kentucky Derby winner? Its seems this is the race everyone wants to win, and when you pay $300,000 and up to breed, you must have this on your mind. I think he was way over priced.

Also think A.P. Indy is still waiting on his first Derby winner.

Speaking of Danzig and Northern Dancer, dont forget WAR CHANT. They can sprint, run distance, and loves turf and dirt. Even that fake SHI?$## poly.

There's TOO MUCH Northern Dancer blood in the world. Thank God and whatever other deity being worshipped out there that Storm Cat is no longer breeding. Now if only breeders would stop focusing on his offspring and their offspring, because the gene pool is too limited, and if people don't start changing their ways, the Thoroughbred will become extinct.

And to think that Northern Dancer not only could have been bought for $25,000 but he was such an ornery little cuss he almost got gelded.  There may be a lot of his bloodline in the world today, but hey they are all racehorses.

Everybody talks about the Northern Dancer bloodline but it seems that people have forgotten another great influence and that was Raise a Native, his line has produced a lot of classic winners and the greatest rivalry was between Alydar a son of Raise a Native and Affirmed a grandson of Raise a Native being by his son Exclusive Native who also sired the great filly Genuine Risk who won the Kentucky Derby and Mr. Prospector, a great sire, is a son of Raise a Native so I think it is about time that this stallion was given his due on the impact on the breed.

Julie, I too am a Raise A Native fan, but unfortunately, his influence is also too strong in most American pedigrees. Almost every horse in the Derby had him in his backgroud. Raise A Native is always sort after for speed but he can also be found in many Belmont winners. That may be because there arn't any real 12 furlong horses anymore and so that may be the real reason for his influence. Victory Gallop  and Point Given come from that line and I do think he was a true distance horse. Hopefully Raise A Natives will be crossed with totally Native Dancer free horses and maybe we can get speed, distance and soundness once again.

My thoughts on Storm Cat?  THANK GOD.  he should have been put up a LONG time ago, and Unbridled's Song shouldn't be too far behind him.  The industry is SO flooded with SC blood it's obscene.  The breeding side really needs to go through a major overhaul, what with limiting how many mares a stallion can cover per season, doing more research into bloodlines and trying to weed out bleeders and stallions/mares that throw brittle, fragile babies.  If we don't get a start on this, and pronto, if you think racing careers are short NOW, they'll seem like epics in about 15 years.

Glad to hear that there are other Raise a Native fans out there, yes he is greatly felt in pedigrees but I have always felt that he has been much overlooked and if we truly want to talk about the influence in both Raise a Native and Northern Dancer horses then it should be noted that Raise a Native was a son of Native Dancer and Northern Dancer was a grandson through his dam of Native Dancer so perhaps we should be giving credit to the Grey Ghost of Sagamore, I believe that's how they refered to him. He was truly great.

Hugs and peppermints to these 2 great stallions !   You do not achieve their sustained level off success by accident, luck, or marketing....not for that kind of money.   The horse breeding business is a tough, tough business and both farms should be proud of the legacy both will leave behind.  Going forward, regardless of what the whiners and the doomdays folks say( no serious breeders amongst them either), there is plenty of good, solid, fresh bloodlines in Kentucky to continue making the best product in the world

I visited Storm Cat's son (Weather Warning) at the weekend - his photos do not do him justice. He is such a beutiful example of the wonderful Northern Dancer's line. May his bloodlines go on forever.

Perhaps the next up and coming stallion is Smart Strike.  His family is very rich in quality with Sky Classic, Regal Classic, Dance Smartly, Danethruthdawn, Grey Classic etc.....Few would argue his early success....maybe we all need to look north of the border for the future.  Northern Dancer..next?

Right on target Julie L!  It was Native Dancer that all these others descended from and he should be getting the credit.  He is the only all time great you will see in the pedigree of the vast majority of the top horses racing today and his influence is still dominating 41 years after he passed on!

Outcrossing is a necessity, saturation of these 'bloods' requires it, BREEDER'S will follow suit and act accordingly. But, Pay attention to 'Luv Luvin's' family,  One last generation is still available, going back across son's of Mr. Prospector will salvage the N.D. & S.W. lineage for sometime to come. Itensifying 'Raise A Native' & "Nasrullah', seems to re-invigorate these lines, see Henrythenavigator for example.

I saw ND ran 3 times in Canada and twice he was beaten in a 2 furlong race and on the turf. The horse that beat him at 2 furlongs was a nice horse and very fast the other only ordinary. Rambling Road (good sprinter) and Garcon d' Or I think was the second horses name to beat him in Canada who was nothing special-just that ND didn't like turf. Dancer was a great stud who sired great turfers as well as dirt.

I agree there are too many from his line and anybody with a Storm Cat colt in the last ten/fifteen years thinks they own a stud. If they weeded out the bad ones and average runners it wouldn't be so bad.

Windfields got rid of ND's full brother Northern Native and sent him to Mich. and oblivion. Nostrum was OK but nothing special in Maryland as a 1/2 brother stud to ND.

Except in a few cases (Some horses like Silver Deputy-I thought he was going to be one of the best ever- and Danzig were  meant to be superstars and didn't race more than a few starts due to breakdowns) No matter how well bred the horse is-if he doesn't race well the foals don't as well. By sending so many non-preforming well bred horses to stud the lines have been diminished and expanded them too much. YES, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Viceregal from ND's first crop I still say is the best horse I ever saw run regularly in person (Dr. Fager would be my pick otherwise) yet he was basically a dud at stud and was sent to France -then disappeared, but his full brother Vice Regent was probably one of the most underrated studs of all time and he only broke his Maiden and failed to hit the board in his other races. It was a good thing they gave him a chance.

Bottom line if they don't produce get them to somewhere they can't do damage to the line.--Turkey or somewhere.

Wonderful stallions all, but as originally asked, where to look for fresh "faces"?  One way around the Mr. Prospector (Native Dancer) and Northern Dancer is to "go gray".  Silver Charm (sadly for us now in Japan), Alphabet Soup, Skip Away, Giacomo and Cozzene are all free of these names.  They share some more distant ancestors, but not for several generations.  And some of these stallions proved themselves racing sound past their 3 year old years.

azeri77 you mention Smart Strike and then list Sky Classic, Regal Classic, Dance Smartly, etc., when you mentioned Smart Strike as the new and upcoming stallion you made it sound as if he is from the Northern Dancer line and he is not, his sire is Mr. Prospector by Raise a Native and his bottom breeding has no Northern Dancer though his dam was crossed with Northern Dancer line stallions so if you are suggesting that Smart Strike is going to promote the Northern Dancer sire line you are way off he will promote the Raise a Native line through Mr. Prospector.

 I think a lot of people have forgotten that a lot of SC success came from the genetics of his dam. He carries the large heart gene inherited from Terlingua and came from Secretariat. He has been able to pass Secretariats large heart gene on through his dam.  So his foals are carrying that Bold Ruler blood too.  Storm Bird was not that great of a sire to have produced such a great one.  It had to be contribution of his dam that made the difference.  AP Indy also.

• Scot's reply:  So true!  Add Gone West (on SRO) and Dehere (on SRO) and Perfect Soul (IRE) (on SRO) and Holy Roman Emperor (IRE) (pedigree) to the list of premier sires with Secretariat as a broodmare sire.  Big Red has been gone almost 20 years, but we haven't seen the end of his influence.

Answer to S. Lee

First-Tiznow, maybe Unusal Heat (sp?) is improving almost ordinary mare he is seeing in CA, have you seen his A.E.I. comparing to the other sires????  and there are a number more like him across the country and in Canada. They are out there.

Japan and South America have high quality dirt and grass racing-Maybe Invasor will do well and some Halo lines can resurface through the good studs we sent to Japan too early-what about bringing Brian Time lines back from Japan. I thought he was only an OK horse in the US during a bad year but he did great at stud there. We import almost everything else, maybe it is time we import studs as well instead of just shipping them out (I was sad to Menifee go before he saw some good mares)

With Polytracks unfortunately coming in the turf lines in Europe that don't have the ND blood in them would be good imports-remember although many European stars were bred here there are enough with truly French, Ire, and English leanings that have done well when they come here to race.

Unfortunately and  not trying to knock you, of the grays you mentioned I wouldn't send a million  dollar mare to any of them. They would be fine for a mare I was taking a shot with, maybe a hard knocking mare that was claimer. Bottom line is they wouldn't sell well and everybody can takes shots and give advice when it is not your money.

Once I begged a breeder friend to buy shares in Silver Deputy off only two lifetime starts-I was right, but it is easy when I had nothing to lose. Try playing poker at the practice tables-then see how good you are when the money is on the line. See if you play as loose.

I think the line that will return to prominence is the Bold Ruler line through sons of Seattle Slew with A.P. Indy being the most productive son as we are really already feeling A.P. Indy's influence as a sire of sires and as a broodmare sire. Tiznow could regenerate the Relaunch line who is a son of In Reality but it is still too early to tell with him. It will be interesting to see how the lines develop.

Hi Marc W -

no offense taken - that's why there are so many cards on the table - nobody really knows where the next best nicks are going to be.  Personally I'd like to take a good mare, maybe from a Slew mare, maybe from a European line, and go to one of the grays.  The genetic pools are deep and have tricky currents - that's half the fun!

I would love to see the Relaunch line rejuvinated. I fully respect what both these horses (SC and SW) have done for the industry. I believe one horse who will make an impact with America's Thoroughbred is Hat Trick (Sunday Silence - Tricky Code, by Lost Code). He's not from the Northern Dancer line, but he's a total outcross as he is free of ND and Mr. Prospector for that matter. Storm Cat and Sadler's Wells both earned their retirements!

Tiznow is a horse who has great success. He has soundness, and stamina, and if the breeders give him a chance he will succeed. Look how well this group of runners are doing this year, and they love synthetic, which is probably where racing is moving too.  He might make a difference.

• Scot's reply:  Tiznow (on SRO) (pedigree) is an interesting example of Northern Dancer inbreeding (4 x 4) without either his sire or dam being tail-male. 

The breakdowns that we regretfully witness on the track are due to the fact that these horses are raced too young.  They aren't completely physicaly developed until they are 6 years old.  Their bones are fragile, and too much is demanded from these young colts and fillies.  Bottom line!!!  Nicanor is a 2 yr. old, meanwhile he was born shortly after Barbaro was destroyed in 07.

all this talk of Northrn Dancer - his son Nijinsky was the only horse to win the English triple crown since 1938 - he also sired two other Epsom derby winners - The Minstrel and Secreto who fought it out with another Northern Dancer sired horse El Gran Senor - quite amazing - still think there can never be enough Northern Dancer blood in the world

While I do like what the Northern Dancer lines have done for the industry in terms of developing today's top sires, it is time to start outcrossing a little bit more. But you cannot forget, either, that it is really Northern Dancer's sire, Nearctic, who had a huge influence over the breed - as of 2001, I believe, he was in over 75% of all thoroughbred bloodlines in North America. Not that I don't like Nearctic, who was truly a Canadian spectacle of a horse, but perhaps its time to step away from him a little bit and cross onto other sire and dam lines.

Okay. Big Brown looks like he is on his way the the american triple crown  - his paternal grandfather was Danzig - his maternal grandfather Nureyev - both sons of Northern Dancer - it works for him

Canadian breeders gave the racing world Northern Dancer, Nijinsky, Vice Regent, Deputy Minister and Dance Smartly.  It is time for the American breeders to start thinking "outside the box".  The Descendants of Blushing Groom tend to pass on a lot of class to their offsprings.  With the pensioning of Storm Cat and Sadler's Well perhaps the future could be with stallions like Cherokee Run, Congaree, Invasor, Candy Ride and Leroidesanimaux if breeders are willing to remove the Northern Dancer/ Raise a Native blinkers from their thinking.

Northern Native was Northern Dancer's full brother and he went to stud ended up in Mich., Nostrum was a half brother at stud in Maryland. Rakeen was one the best bred horses I have ever seen, sired by the Dancer with Glorious Song the mare who was a champion and blue hen as a producer, I doubt most of you have no knowledge of the above because they were flops, their lines are almost dead (Rakeem just showed up in a recent stakes winner). There is something more to it than bloodlines that makes a great horse-luck! Think John Henry.

Your chances are better when you breed to the best, but like a Presidential candidate coming from a welfare mother, breeding only takes you so far. The trainer the horse is given to, the farm that breaks him, the feed he eats all play a part in success. The racing gods determine success. A great sire with the wrong mare nick can't make it. Breed well, give it a chance, and hope for luck.

Both sires were great as was their get, but others will come given a break. I remember when Bold Ruler line was the king, things change. Breeders will find ways to dilute their influence. (Of course since breeding is nowadays more important and profitable than producing racing champions and thrilling the public it may be that racing will be dead in the US before that happens and make it a mute point. The die hard fans will be watching Austrailian, English, European and Japanese races on TVG and HRTV where people actually go to the racetrack and support the  game)

Well first of all i was never a Saddler Wells fan. However being 11 years old and watching Dancer win the Derby loved that horse. Now gentlemen you are all quite right too inbreeding led to poor Eight Belles problems and death. How about that unsung heros's line Gallant Man? His desendants are wonderful. strong and have pizzaz. Marc W you are quite right. Poor horses who were good but outshone by the heroes of the hour. Gala Surpreme and Gala Red back in Australia were great in their day. Of course we need to treat our masterpieces better and those who are not raced need to be given good homes and treated well not ending up as dinner. Of course if Big Brown wins the triple crown on june 7th LOL here we go again!

I was so glad to see this news!  If you're looking to soundness, what about Dynaformer and some of his sons?  What about Pleasant Colony line sires?  I'm more than a little tired of the Raise a Native and Northern Dancer sires out there.  Let's get some of the Halo line rejuvenated (Sunday Silence sons) while we're at it.

• Scot's reply:  Dynaformer ... Pleasant Colony ... now you're singing my tune!  As for Halo... I have a David Copperfield yearling filly....

The current breeding stock sales are the end of an era for one of North America's top sires. Today we'll take a quick glance at the two Keeneland November offerings of mares in foal to Storm Cat.

Oh, it's true -- Storm Cat is back in stud service. There's one little detail, though, that puts a twist on things...