Two Point Two Mill, by Known Fact out of a Stage Door Johnny mare.

Hybrid vigor is created by crossing 2 horses inbred to different ancestors.  You're right, in that it's becoming increasingly difficult to find American pedigrees with unique ancestors to make this scheme work.  And I've read the many e-mails regarding how American breeders have deported champion racehorses and how we don't use many of the sound racehorses that now stand at stud.  Beyond the fact that many of them are not very commercial, even if you are breed-to-race person, most of the "classic-types" end up being very bad stallions.  This is a shame, as they could at least make a contribution as broodmare sires, if they could make it over the hump with at least some initial success at stud.  Stamina influences like Unbridled, Pleasant Colony, and A.P. Indy are really the exception to the rule in the breeding shed, unfortunately.

In Excess.

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Holy Bull?

Say Florida Sandy (in NY) contains no Mr. Prospector, no Northern Dancer, and no Seattle Slew. His female family does contain Bold Ruler (in the fourth generation) and Raise a Native (in the fifth, via Exclusive Native) but he is free of the 3 influences you mentioned in your challenge to readers, and was one of the soundest, fastest runners of his generation, to boot.

we do have fee blood lines. you just have to look.holy bull.hes been doing well too

sooner or later you will have to do something about Monsun and/or the Surumu line. by a good son and stand him in california, where they race on something similar to turf.

• Scot's reply:  Great idea!  Thanks for the suggestion.

Hat Trick?  By Sunday Silence out of the Lost Code mare Tricky Code.  Stands in KY now.

Hat Trick?  By Sunday Silence out of the Lost Code mare Tricky Code.  Stands in KY now.

another good source of independent breeding is aga khan france/ireland. old fashioned stayers.

Cherokee Run, Chapel Royal, Gilded Time, Montbrook, Milwaukee Brew, Mizzen Mast, Out of Place, Orientate, Pleasant Tap, Strong Contender.  Bertrando, Halo's Image, and Devil His Due have In Reality blood but no Northern Dancer, Mr. P, or Seattle Slew.

Alphabet Soup or Mizzen Mast (both by Cozzene).

Cozzene and his son, Alphabet Soup are free of Northern Dancer, Mr. P, and Slew

Perhaps one of the most underappreciated true outcrosses for the Mr. P, Northern Dancer mares is Rahy.   The number of times Blushing Groom showed up in the 2008 Belmont Stakes contenders pedigrees was truly impressive.  Then take a look at the pedigrees of the broodmares that have produced SW's by Rahy.  The reason it is so difficult to outcross in this Country is because no one is bothering to build gene pools that are predictable (carefully thought out inbreeding).  Often the inbred horses lack the performance necessary to be considered for breeding.  However, what inbreeding takes away from performance it gives to predictability in breeding.  Linebreed, then outcross.

Very tricky!Can't find any in the fifth generation.How about Concern-Nearco in the fourth.Go for Gin-Princequillo,Nearco in the fourth.Cox's Ridge-Nearco in the fourth.Out of Place-Nearco in the fourth.How am I doing? Buckfinder has La Troienne in the fourth,that's a good thing.

Skip Away,Montbrook again in the fourth generation.As mentioned Holy Bull's sire is out of Ta Wee by Intentionally the sire of In Reality.

How about Dynaformer & his good son, Purim?   Go to Nashrullah but no Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, In Reality, or Raise a Native.  

For another in the same line siring Paint thoroughbreds, Timely Roberto. (For sale in Texas)

Foxtrail-Princequillo in the fourth and fifth,one cross in each.

How about Concern or Mongoose, both stallions by Broad Brush?  One is is Oklahoma, the other Florida (if memory serves).  Neither one is getting amazing mares, and I would hate to lose Broad Brush as an influence.

Sand Ridge (Known Fact- Skybox, Spend A Buck) stands in Texas.  Free of Mr. P and Northern Dancer

I worked at the old Roosevelt raceway many years ago as a groom. One of the trainers there told me that Secretariat was a hybred Vigor, and that's the reason he was as good as he was.  Any truth to that.?

• Scot's reply:  Well... the term "hybrid vigor" is generally used to indicate the resulting offspring when a significantly-inbred individual is crossed with "fresh" genes.  Neither Bold Ruler nor Somethingroyal had a close-up pattern of inbreeding. My guess is, Secretariat was one of the finest examples of the Nasrullah/Princequillo nick... he came from a fine female family... and he was a lucky assembly of genes! 

The problem with the Foxtrails, Concerns, etc is they are failures at stud. Why is there so much Mr.P, Northern D, Seattle Slew, etc...?One reason and one reason only, they win races!

Rahy, Blushing groom are excellent sources of Nasrullah, just like the Bold Rulers, Caro, Seattle Slew, Secratariat, Mt. Livermore to name a few. Then you have the all the Raise a Natives from Our Native, Affirmed, and the Alydars. Why is there so much of these? They win! Especially on the dam side.

Every body always wants some sort of funky new blood. The problem is that these oddball studs don't produce winners here.

Breeding racehorses is all about winning races, there is no other reason to breed other than that.

Siphon is an outcross to the prominent lines here in the U.S.A. Look at his record at stud. He has all the earmarks of a failed stud. Yeah, he has gotten some decent runners, but not nearly enough.

• Scot's reply:  Siphon (BRZ) (on SRO) might be the best answer so far to my challenge.  Failure?  I disagree.  The same way I disagree when folks say Secretariat failed as a stud. Just because a stallion doesn't get a huge AEI or spawn a large sire line doesn't mean he isn't an important addition to Thoroughbred bloodlines. Siphon might well prove, long-term, to be an important source of stamina in American bloodstock.

Looks like NY State has two good choices - Raffie's Majesty and Say Florida Sandy.  Raffie's Majesty is hitty at 4% Stakes Winners and his offspring seem to be pretty tough horses.  I think Say Florida Sandy's large second and third crops will make people take notice of his ability to throw a good race horse.

Potowatomi is an outcross.  He does go back to Dante(Nearco) twice on his dam side.  

There are some good European bloodlines available that make excellent outcrosses, such as Istintaj in New Mexico.  These European bred stallions share some similar bloodlines with their American cousins, but I believe there is enough difference to still consider them legitimate outcrosses.

Prime Timber

Raffie's Majesty

Cetewayo

Maybry's Boy

Out Of Place

Outofthebox

Take Me Out

High Brite

Singletary

Strategic Partner

Swain

Sweet Return

They're out there, it's just a question of if they are useful or will even be given the chance to succeed.

Here's a yearling colt I bred .... No Mr. P, No Northern Dancer, No Seattle Slew , No In Reality

  ( August Messenger ) 2007

Demon Warlock. Free of all mentioned. Standing in WA state, first foals landed this year, so time will tell.

Gallant Man sire line, and not a lot of those to be found.

A stallion that has had two international champions is MONSUN in Germany. Germany is clean from medication and over the last few years we see that the strengths they offer are becoming more apparent as horses like Galileo and Monsun have become top sires and originate from German families. Monsun has crossed well with Northern Dancer and will cross well with strains such as Nasrullah, Hail To Reason and Mr Prospector. Anything carrying incluences of Feola (maybe through Round Table) would be great. As far as Ahonoora is concerned, his best son, Indian Ridge, is dead and has left behind no son that offers a serious option. A son of Sunday Silence may be worth looking at and HAT TRICK, now in Kentucky, was a top class miler and is also a very good-looking horse. Although he raced on grass, I think that with all the synthetic surfaces coming into play in the states it seems that things may be starting to lean towards, what are presently known as, "grassy" pedigrees or horses with more of a preference to grass. Horses with a bit more stamina in their pedigrees may come to the fore in future.

Captain Countdown (by Relaunch) stands in Texas. He is the youngest SW son of Relaunch in the world.

IF I got it right? It is a no brainer

VALID EXPECTATIONS

Great Stud record and outcross-not cheap, but not expensive either, considering his get.

• Scot's reply:  Send a Foolish Pleasure mare to him and get the nice family 14-b mare Fool-Me-Not 4 x 3. And depending on the mare's dam, you could still produce an outcross to the three predominant lines in the U.S.

Secratariat was definitely a successful stallion. His legacy was and still is carried through his daughters.

Buckpasser is much the same. His daughters have really carried the water for his legacy as well.

I am very interested in the development of Include. he has gotten off to a nice start as a sire.

But, as for Siphon, I guess we will just have to disagree. I have nothing against him. He was an excellent racehorse. But, he flunked out of Kentucky and is now in Pa. In my eyes that means "flop". Perhaps he will be useful throwing runners for the Philly Park. and Penn National crowd. I wish him the best of luck

I used "The Blood-Horse Stallion Register for 2008". I started at the beginning and quit after the Es because it was too tedious and there were plenty of stallions free of Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew and the Intent line for at least 5 generations. I verified these findings at www.pedigrequery.com. I tried to get it right, but may have made errors for which I apologize in advance. I found the following stallions:

1) Bay Head King (Saint Ballado + Meadow Silk (Meadowlake))

2) Bright Valour (Wild Again + Burnished Bright (Well Decorated))

3) Buckle Down Ben (Devil His Due + Flying Hill (Flying Paster))

4) Chapel Royal (Montbrook + Cut Class Leanne (Cutlass))

5) Cherokee Run (Runaway Groom + Cherokee Dame (Silver Saber))

6) Chicago Six (Wild Again + Secretaridge (Secretariat))

7) Comic Strip (Red Ransom + Now That’s Funny (Saratoga Six))

8) Concern (Broad Brush + Farah’s Team (Tunerup))

9) Concorde’s Tune (Concorde Bound + Parisian Tune (Tunerup))

10) Cozzene (Caro (Ire) + Ride The Trails (Prince John))

11) David Copperfield (Halo + Bannockburn (Count Brook))

12) Devil His Due (Devil’s Bag + Plenty O’Toole (Raise a Cup))

13) Dynaformer (Roberto + Andover Way (His Majesty))

14) Early Flyer (Gilded Time + Bistra (Classic Go Go)

Also these boys will need some talented fillies to help produce some speedy offspring. These 2 girls are listed in my 6/21/2008 "Thoroughbred Times" as recent graded stakes winners and are free of Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew and the Intent line for at least 5 generations. I also verified these findings at www.pedigrequery.com:

1) Dreaming of Anna (Rahy + Justenuffheart (Broad Brush))

2) Social Queen (Dynaformer + Gal On The Go (Irgun)).

As to Secretariat-seeing the mares he did-he would "HAVE TO" have some nice blood out there-but I wouldn't credit him-it just "had to" happen through those Blue Hen mares. The same for Damascus, and some others that failed at stud.

Although Unusual Heat isn't the topic-how good is he? Is there a better horse in the US at improving his mares? All his horses seem to be runners on every surface. When is he going to KY?

well,It is hard to find a horse which is completly free of Mr Prospector and Northern dancer!

Breeders should take a good look at Big Browns breeding and start to do the same ( inbreed to the great horses of the past). the breeders that bred such horses like Dr Fager,Round Table,Swaps,etc,did a great job producing champions!!

So why not to follow this pattern and have a better chance to breed a champion ?

I know Secretariat's daughters are proven producers,  how about his grandaughters.? A friend of mine, here in Florida, owns a 12 year old grandaughter of Secretariat and she has been offered pretty good money for this mare by a number of top show trainers here.  She's never been broke to saddle, 'cause my friend can't ride well, but she shows in the halter classes at the local open shows here in Fla.  She puts away those big muscular quarter horses in the halter classes.  The judges just love her,  but these trainers want her for a reason and I'm just wondering how successful his grandaughters have been, and their approximate value on the breeding market.

• Scot's reply:  As Marc W commented (24 Jun 2008 3:39 p.m.), Secretariat covered mostly top-notch mares. So if your friend's mare is out of a daughter of a Secretariat-quality mare, it's likely she comes from a good family.  That said, if the only selling point for a horse is having Secretariat (or any Thoroughbred) in the second generation, it wouldn't be enough to convince most trainers or breeders.  I'm guessing there are other factors that make your friend's Secretariat granddaughter valuable.

A couple of our MidAtlantic stallions fit the bill: St. Averil is free of all of the above, and brings a bonus Rasmussen factor with inbreeding to the great Mahmoud.

Also, Lite the Fuse, standing in PA, with no inbreeding at all in 5 generations.

• Scot's reply:  Halo over Lord Avie... a rare line (through the stallion Paavo) to the great family 1-a mare Too Bald (dam of American Standard and Baldski and Capote and Exceller)...  yeah, St. Averil has some nice lines.  I think he's not really a Rasmussen Factor, though... his linebreeding to Mah Mahal is in generations 6, 7, and 8... the R.F. requires inbreeding within 5 generations to a superior mare, through at least two different offspring.

St Averil - most undervalued stallion at stud in MD.  

Secretariat had no in-breeding for at least 5 generations. None. Finding a contemporary stallion with zero in-breeding for 5 generations seems to be a greater challenge than the one we were originally assigned.

Those who think Secretariat was a failure at stud need only consider Lady's Secret***, Risen Star***, General Assembly*** and Tinner's Way. There are a number of stallions listed in "The Blood-Horse Stallion Register for 2008" plus several others no longer active for which Biggest Red is the broodmare sire. Not bad for a flop. Listed by dam they are

Athyka - Atticus;

Ball Chairman - Perfect Soul (Ire);

Lady Winborne - Lost Soldier;

Navajo Pass - Desert Warrior;

Partygoer - Go Deputy**;

Secretaridge - Chicago Six;

Secrettame - Demidoff and Gone West;

Sister Dot - Defrere and Dehere;

Six Crowns - Chief’s Crown***;

Terlingua - Storm Cat*, Pioneering and Wheaton***;

Weekend Surprise - A.P. Indy, Eavesdropper, Honor Grades*** and Summer Squall*.

*no longer active

**exported to South Africa 2007

***deceased

More Saint Ballado sons - Yankee Victor and Sweetsouthernsaint.

Bertrando, in CA!

Marc W, at 3:39 PM 6/24/2008 you posted "As to Secretariat-seeing the mares he did-he would "HAVE TO" have some nice blood out there-but I wouldn't credit him-it just "had to" happen through those Blue Hen mares. The same for Damascus, and some others that failed at stud."

This is typical of your unsubstantiated commentary as posted on other blogs.

Every pedigree worth a farthing requires BOTH a father and a mother. Every top notch stallion has been made more valuable by the company he kept. So what? By your logic, I could take a $1,000 claimer that somehow evaded the knife, breed him to numerous classy mares, and eventually I'll get a Horse of the Year. Wow! That's easy. I'll start buying the mares tomorrow. How many do you think I'll need 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or more?

By the way, can you offer any documentation that Secretariat deserves no credit for any of his talented descendants?

Siphon....Turkoman....Rahy...The Daddy....Devil His Due...

The only solution is to plan ahead several years, just like building a hockey team with young draft picks who won't be ready to battle for the Stanley Cup for another three or four years. First you have to accept that you will likely not be successful right off the bat. Be prepared to wait.

Take your Dancer/Mr.P mares and breed them to the outcrosses, which may well be some of those so-called "failed" stallions — who likely failed because they didn't breed 100-plus foals out of top mares every year! Or maybe they are very successful horses in another discipline requiring stamina, speed and soundness, like eventing or hurdles.  You are even further ahead if you can start with a few top-class mares whose pedigrees are already mostly free of the "Big Three".

Accept that your first generation crosses may not be world beaters. Keep the best each year. You may not have any record holders, but you will have begun to establish a breeding program without those pesky inbreedings.

Now you can take the best fillies that resulted from those two or three years of outcrossing and breed them to the very best stallions and see what happens in that and succeeding generations. And if you got some nice colts as well as fillies, you can breed them to some stakes class mares who probably are in need of some outcross blood.

Even a market breeder could do it using just a handful of his or her mares and keeping the best foals each year from those "experimental" breedings to continue on with, thus creating a future breeding pool that could become a very valuable commodity down the road.

I feel that breeders tend to choose whatever cross will go for the highest prices at the sales right away, even when it is not in the best interest of the breed or even in the best interests of the producer in the future. They want whatever cross will produce a quick return as weanlings or yearlings. But you can't keep doing that if you want long-term success because soon there will be a glut on the market and no one will pay those high prices for horses that are have almost identical pedigrees.

Someone suggested adding an infusion of Arab blood. Interesting! There was a JC-registered purebred Arab stallion about 30-40 years ago. Whether he was used to produced registered TB offspring, I don't know. But that certainly sets a precedent. There are some very, very good Arab racehorses that would add stamina and soundness and provide that badly-needed outcross. In fact, one of the ladies from the famous Crabbet Stud (Lady Wentworth, Lady Anne Lytton or Lady Anne Blunt, not sure which one) suggested the modern Thoroughbred is essentially all Arab, with few or no genes remaining from the old English race horses of 300 years ago. There are Arabs that look Thoroughbred, and Thoroughbreds that look Arab (Hyperian being a prime example). If a complete outcross is needed to help solve the inbreeding issue in Thoroughbreds, an Egyptian-bred racing Arab would be a very good choice.

Why not consider an outcross such as this line?

http://www.plaintree.com.au/stallions/sunday-knight

Sunday Silence lines might be a way to outcross and get "out of the hole" of Native Dancer lines that breeders have dug themselves into.

Breeding is always a guessing game, dependent upon the whims of genetics and Mother Nature. However, one thing is evident and that is the need to look outward away from the Native Dancer lines to new blood.  

The persistent problems in Native Dancer lines become even more obvious when you see how many horses who are big winners, also retire young to breeding due to soundness problems.  But this "Take them to breeding before they break on you" approach doesn't prevent them from passing the genes for their own propensity for problems on to the next generations.

Problems with soundness of the limbs gets the most attention but if you look at the records, you will also see a pattern in horses from Native Dancer lines dying of heart attacks, heart failure, etc, in their middle teens.

MARIA'S MON was 5x2 Nashrulla on the bottom, but lists none of the MrP/Slew influence we're looking to avoid. Unfortunately he's deceased, however it makes the pedigree on MONBA interesting for outcross breeding: he's out of Hamba by Easy Goer, lists Nashrulla only once in the damside (5 out), and is also void of MrP/Slew.

what would be a recommendation for a mare by Jolies Halo, out of a Silver Buck mare, if I wanted to breed to race. She does have inbreeding in 5 gen, but not the lines you  are talking about. In 5 gen, 3 crosses to Turn-To, 2 to Mahmoud, 2 to Royal charger,  just curious what opinions would be about this breeding. Thanks

walaa, what is your budget? There could be any number of suitable studs. How about geography? Do you want a KY based stud, or FL or MD, etc? Give us more info, please.

Not one stallion named here (in the US anyway) has done as good a job as In Excess.  He is the true outcross right now in the United States.

pretty low budget right now, but it wont be until next year I breed, so it could be bigger, but I eally believe the value right now is alot of the lower priced, less used studs, at least for me:) Im in Tenn, KY is my best. I have a Saratoga Six mare that I might be breeding also, I do have her so I guess I should be looking for her first!

For the Saratoga Six mare, you might want to consider Thunder Gulch. Point Given was out of a Turkoman mare, so Saratoga Six might me a nice match. I like the Thunder Gulches. They have speed and can sprint, route, dirt or turf.

For the Jolies Halo mare, Belong to Me could be interesting. He has showm an affinity for Turn-to blood and  his best Runner Jerssy Girl was out of a Valid appeal mare, ( I think). Anyway, you have both source of blood in that mare that Belong to Me has proved to be useful to.

This doesnt really relate to this column, so I understand if it doesnt get posted, but at least it involves a racehorse:) If anyone knows of a forum that talks about off the trackers could you please post the address? I just got a Theatrical gelding that came out of the thoroughbred training center in Lexington a couple-4 weeks ago. Duke of Venice. He raced primarily in England, won a 2 mile race, mile and a half race, but only started 13 times in his career. He sold as a yearling at Keeneland for 300,000 in 2001. His breeder was Forenaghts Stud in KY. I am just trying to find any info that could help me in rehabbing this horse. Thanks, and again I understand scot, if you dont post this, it doesnt relate, just hoping someone can point me in the right direction, or may know this horse. Thanks.

• Scot's reply:  Nice English group winner from one of my all-time favorite families (his fourth dam is by the incomparable Dr. Fager and out of a Bold Ruler half sister to Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal).  He actually ran 14 times and earned $118,114.  There are several Yahoo groups that discuss Thoroughbred rehab and retraining.  Join them!  And the folks on the Pedigree Query forum might be a good source of information.  Good luck with your new guy!

Sham-man

To This

Secretariat-seeing the mares he did-he would "HAVE TO" have some nice blood out there-but I wouldn't credit him-it just "had to" happen through those Blue Hen mares. The same for Damascus, and some others that failed at stud."

This is typical of your unsubstantiated commentary as posted on other blogs.

Every pedigree worth a farthing requires BOTH a father and a mother. Every top notch stallion has been made more valuable by the company he kept. So what? By your logic, I could take a $1,000 claimer that somehow evaded the knife, breed him to numerous classy mares, and eventually I'll get a Horse of the Year. Wow! That's easy. I'll start buying the mares tomorrow. How many do you think I'll need 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or more?

By the way, can you offer any documentation that Secretariat deserves no credit for any of his talented descendants?

Answers

Although he never saw "Toussaud"-he saw the like mares to her in his generation (I am using her for an example hoping you will know her without going to your computer for figures) ---If I bred a goat to her it would be fast. Never in my memory-trust me, it is better and more knowledgeable than yours without looking at figures on a computer-I have NEVER known any sire dead or alive that got the bookings he did of the best mares. PERIOD!

Proof-go to the mares get and compare how they did this other sires. Sham also did much worse than Secretariat for a needle I can't resist, but then, even a $4000 claimer that got loose in the paddock may have produced better than Sham.

Check the indexes my friend-it's not tough.

--Secretariat's 1/2 brother Sir Gaylord I believe threw more winners % wise than did Secretariat in his short career. I believe Big Red had two or three brothers at stud before him. He was beautifully bred-Bold Ruler was the great stud of his generation-and a mare that had produced a few stakes winners. He was a great looking horse, had good blood in the family as sires, retired sound and a champion. When he went to stud he had ALL the makings-at the time if I could I would have killed for a season with a mare. The 6 or 7 million they bought him for at 2 was a steal, he just wasn't able to reproduce himself. Remember Canada Bound?

The get of many many many many other champion racehorse mares or great producers that Secretariat saw. Look what they threw from other sires. He is not alone my friend, my favorite Dr Fager was worse, as was Damascus, S. Bid, Sham, and other great horses-other than Fager they all threw a couple good horses.

Vice Regent was a maiden breaker and nothing else, yet one of the most underrated great sires ever. His full brother Viceregal was as good of horse I have ever seen if sound would be lists of the greats-The crappy racehorse was the better sire---things happen.

Yes, we had Lady's Secret, General Assembly, Risen Star et. very nice horses. Ole Bob Bowers had John Henry------was it the sire?

Crytoclearance--breed to him for $3500 now---he has been known to throw champions---it was him of course-yeah right-take the good mares away and you have him today (and the last 6 years).

Go to my current greatly underrated favorite sire-Unusual Heat $17500 fee---He hasn't had a champion but improves mares. God knows what he might throw with the same type mares Big Red had. I would love to see him head to head with Mr Greely  (who has thrown nice horses but is my pick for most overpriced) at a $125,000 and saw his mares.

Better Thought----just check the indexes out. Look and marvel if you have the time to see the mares he saw. It was the who's who of racehorses and broodmares in that era. It is truly amazing.

Note to add Sham-Man-and until above I never took a shot at anyone other than Draynay on one of his comments that might have been forged according to the moderator---  it was so ridiculous.

Racehorse Breeding Theories

By Frank J. Mitchell, Rommy Faversham, Steven A. Roman, David Dink

It discusses second generation with good mares (Blue Hens) making the sire a good broodmare even if his get are average racehorses.--proof add on

Another question? I lived and breathed racehorses for 40 years working on a breeding farm part-time when going to school and on track in many positions from asst. clocker, horse identifier, odds maker, groom, et et et as well as owning and training a few---Messenger for EP Taylor--at the sale Northern Dancer didn't sell for $25K walked a great filly named La Prevoyante (Did you know she was out of the full sister to Northern Dancer?)-flew to France to see Nijinsky lose to Sassafras in 1970  Arc, also seen races in Mexico and at most tracks in NA -What are your credentials and knowledge derived from? ---computer skills? I will admit one of your posts was impressive with all the stats. There are people who know more than me-but I speak from a little experience.

FYI-I also saw about 12 Sham foals when they came to the track so definitely can't say every one looked like them----but it seemed all their body's seemed short and very compact--more like ponies-just for your info since you seem to want to know about your favorite horse. I would suspect that is why they didn't do well or sell well. Again small sample-I was a clocker then.

How about Smart Guy?

There’s a bit of a Catch-22 going on with the selection of sire lines available today.  Certain pedigrees become successful, prices go up for these lines, and prices for those that are out of fashion decrease.  Therefore, if you’ve bred to an outcross type, you’ll probably geld the boys for convenience since there’s little likelihood of making commercial sires of them if they win.  

Some of the stallions that had so-so racing careers don’t get promoted as racing sires, but may fall into the hands of sporthorse breeders.  Danzig didn’t wow anyone on the track but he had a hot pedigree so the world found out what a stupendous racing sire he was.  How many others, with something besides Mr. P, N.D., or S.S. up close, are out there spawning tough horses with speed nobody will discover?  They’re not listed in The Blood Horse.  They may not even be promoted to TBs.  

I’ve got a 2-yo Damascus grandson that is a stunning mover and has a stayer pedigree, with no 5-gen crosses (a Phalaris and Hyperion in the 6th) and a pedigree similar to Skip Trial’s.  Would love to race him, but without the resources to get him into race training I’ll probably start him in dressage.  Some day he may make fabulous babies, but the track will never hear of them.  There are doubtless hundreds of good possibilities like him out there in the show world, and these may end up being where our outcross needs are eventually met.  

I agree a lot with what has been said above. Obviously, a lot of great runners who were also "well-bred" attracted quality mares who had themselves produced good winners to other stallions. Fore example, take some Europeans Champions like Dancing Brave and Shareef Dancer - both very well-bred horses who stood at Dalham Hall Stud and covered the cream of mares. While having their moments as sires, fewer moments than the industry demanded, they have become good broodmares sires. Arazi, who also started his career at the same farm, has also begun to show his worth as a broodmare sire of late. During his stud career, Secretariat covered some of the best mares around and it is only natural that a horse who was not from the dominant Northern Dancer or Raise A Native lines would become a sire of broodmares - he also had the physique to produce big, strong mares who could carry foals.

I think what it boils down to, is whether or not anyone wants to take the initiative and pratice preservation.  I've done what some on here have done, and searched the Stallion Register, and even went as far as starting from the VERY beginning of the "Original Three" on Pedigree Query(I had a lot of time on my hands at that point....)  I've learned one thing, finding an outcross from the commercial isn't impossible!  I enjoyed this discussion.  Thanks for the topic starter!  

I've found 2 stallions for you and both stand in the state of California and both are sons of Siberian Express - In Excess (Ire) and Siberian Summer. How did I do? There is no Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector or In Reality bloodlines.

• Scot's reply:  Good selections! 

You really got me curious so I took a look at the Top Sires of 2008 and found only 4 that did not have any Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew or In Reality in the first 5 generations, they were In Excess (Ire.) whose fee is n/a, Mizzen Mast who stands for $20,000, Holy Bull who stands for $15,000 and finally Halo's Image who stands for $7,500. This I found very interesting, we really need to promote those stallions who are free of the crosses mentioned in the first 5 generations. Of course there is Rahy but he is a great grandson of Nasrullah who is the sire of Bold Ruler but I think he is still a good outcross if you can keep away mares with the aforementioned bloodlines and he is an excellent sire and well worth the $80,000 stud fee.

I would really like to see an outline of how to create a breeding program like this, how to manage it and what to expect.  This would be more for a hobby breeder who is interested in creating a lasting/consistant bloodline...

I have always loved Golden Pheasant.  He is now in China. wouldnt he have made a great out cross for northern dancer and Mr Prospecter bloodlines?  I wish they would bring him back home to the states.

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I looked through the 2004 Stallion Register and came up with this.

Vice Regent lines.  Royal Academy and Linamix (maybe son Sagamix, an unbeaten horse thru the Arc) despite their Northern Dancer influences. Sinndar? still Northern Dancer 4th generation.

Early Flyer, standing in Texas, by Gilded Time. Meadowlake lines.

Mizzen Mast (Cozzene x Kinema (Graustark))

Mongoose (Broad Brush x Salty Gal (Cox's Ridge))

Orientate (Mt. Livermore x Dream Team (Cox's Ridge))

Prime Timber (Sultry Song x Wine Taster (Nodouble))

Prized (Kris S. x My Turbulent Miss (My Dad George)).

I'm not sure how insignificant he is, but Burbank was a pretty solid racer through his 6 year old career. He stands in Oklahoma for only $1000.