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Curlin as a Stallion Prospect

I'm not going to speculate whether we'll see more of Curlin (pedigree) on the track this year or next -- it would be fantastic for horse racing as a sport, but probably more than we can expect.  Stonestreet Stables' Jess Jackson has already proven to be a true sportsman by bringing Curlin back as a 4-year-old and putting him in premier races to satisfy his fans -- at some point, he's gotta wind up in a breeding shed.  And when he does, he'll be perhaps the top stallion prospect in America.  There'll be more season applications than spots to schedule. 

So, what kind of mares will work with Curlin?

If he's like his sire, Smart Strike (SRO), Curlin will like daughters of Storm Bird -- so far, that match-up has yielded 100% runners and 82% winners from 11 foals, and a 1.83 AEI.  But no stakes winners to date.

Smart Strike with Pleasant Colony mares has had an excellent four stakes winners from five overall winners -- 80% black type from winners! -- but the numbers fall off when looking at total runners (seven starters from 12 foals bred on the cross, or 58%).  Looking a little deeper, it's interesting to note that UNRACED Pleasant Colony mares have produced 100% stakes winners (2-for-2) for Smart Strike.  (To be fair -- and to avoid making Alex Zelvin of Thoroughmetrics twitch! -- I should point out that, however interesting, the small sample size for that last stat is statistically insignificant.)

Comparison with another stallions is apt. Tenpins (SRO) is a son Smart Strike out of a Deputy Minister mare -- the same pattern that gave us Curlin.  Tenpins just now has his first juveniles running, so there's not a whole lot to compare, but his best foals are out of daughters of Northern Baby and Foxhound -- both from the Northern Dancer line.  And two out of four of his top earners are out of Danzig-line mares.  Not much data to go on -- but certainly worth watching as the cross develops. 

To further this thought, TrueNicks rates the Smart Strike/Danzig cross a solid A, and notes that multimillionaire and Canadian grade I winner Soaring Free (pedigree) is one of the best horses on this cross.

I don't have any Northern Dancer-line mares to send his way -- and I suspect his fee will be just ever-so-slightly beyond my range in any case -- but my guess is that this sire line is one of the best bets for Curlin at stud. 

To take it a step further, I'd look specifically at daughters of Northern Dancer's son Dixieland Band (SRO) because it would introduce linebreeding to the blood of Heliopolis, an important strain that has faded to a near memory in Thoroughbred bloodlines. 

And in a few years, maybe mares by Street Sense (SRO).  The son of Street Cry (IRE) (SRO) is not from Northern Dancer's male line, but his damsire is Dixieland Band, and he's inbred to Northern Dancer's dam, Natalma.  And wouldn't that be poetic -- a nice match-up between the bloodlines of 2007's big horse racing rivals!

24 Comments:

I don't have any  breeding knowledge, but would Rags to Riches make a suitable cross?

  • Scot's reply:  You bet she would!  The Mr. Prospector/Seattle Slew cross has been a great nick, and it's likely to continue to hit with their sons, Smart Strike and A.P. Indy (sires, respectively, of Curlin and Rags to Riches).  The specific cross would give Deputy Minister 3 x 3, which in my book is an advantage.
Julialou 06 Nov 2008 4:10 PM

To answer the person who asked about Rags To Riches.....the cross is a good one, but inbreeding to Deputy Minister this close is not my first choice.  3x4 is as close as I would get.  Now Smart Strike to Rags is beautiful.  Rags To Riches will probably go to Giants Causeway or Street Cry as they are the "now" stallions and with good reason......they are terrific. Curlin has the breeding to be a good stallion, but there is a little question about quality when you introduce Bates Motel and Wise Exchange a little futher back.  Hopefully Curlin will be another Top stallion because our breed in in need of some stamina influences and our main stamina sires are aging.

ROBERT 06 Nov 2008 4:38 PM

I would have to think he would be lovely with a Danzig-line mare and will cross well with the umpteen milling Storm Cat mares.

For the record, I hear Rags is going to Henrythenavigator next year.  

kdd 06 Nov 2008 6:14 PM

Essentially Coolmore owned Rags to Stret Cry who stands at Darley? Not ever going to happen, lol.

ladyreb 06 Nov 2008 7:18 PM

I would also agree that AP Indy and his sons would cross well with Curlin, when he retires.  I also like the idea of mares from Indy's female family and crossing them back to Curlin.

ashelbie 06 Nov 2008 9:23 PM

Better than Honour to Smart Strike?

Beyond the obvious Deputy Minister damsire, what about the bottom line?

If she were mine. . .  :)

KatintheHat 06 Nov 2008 9:27 PM

I would like to see Curlin bred to Ouija Board. Seems like too many people breed for looks, pure speed, etc. and not enough emphasis on soundness, structure, strength and endurance...

Chching 06 Nov 2008 9:27 PM

I had already known back when they retired Rags that she probably never be bred to Curlin, as much as it would probably make a very nice foal.  Deputy Minister is too close up front and, at least it was my opinion, that breeding her to him wouldn't be such a great idea.

As for Curlin as a stallion in general, I can't wait until his first foals hit the track.  He's a versatile horse who is tough as nails and hopefully he will do well and pass that on to his babies.

Kayte 06 Nov 2008 10:13 PM

How do you think my mare, Country Oldee by Country Model out of I M O'Hara would do with Curlin - Bold Ruler sire line on top and the great Mill Reef on her dam's side.

Thanks!

  • Scot's reply:  Smart Strike has had several stakes winners with Bold Reasoning mares -- through Capote, Seattle Slew, Fast Play, so in theory, the cross shows promise.  I'm guessing Country Oldee's lack of black type would keep her from making Curlin's first few books, though.

 

NANCY PALMER 07 Nov 2008 7:59 AM

Curlin naturally would greatly benefit from the Northern Dancer line mares as his sires great dam,No Class had great success when mated with Northern Dancer line stallions.

Printo 07 Nov 2008 11:08 AM

I dont know much about breeding but what i would love to see is a  Curlin / Weekend in Seattle (mambo in seattle's dam - full sister to a.p. indy) cross. Or even Curlin / Dancinginmydreams. BTW why isn't anyone talking about an ideal fantasy breeding curlin to zenyatta ... just a thought ...  

  • Scot's reply:  Good question about Zenyatta, Dee.  I'll give my own viewpoint but would like to hear others' ideas.

I don't like the Mr. Prospector 3 X 4 in the sire and broodmare sire lines that would result from the Curlin-Zenyatta cross.  Lest that should seem inconsistent -- I said earlier in this blog that I *encourage* Deputy Minister 3 x 3! -- I should clarify that specific horses are okay in close inbreedings... others I wouldn't try.  Mr. P., especially in the tail-male lines of both sire and dam, isn't my favorite.

Dee 07 Nov 2008 2:38 PM

Note to kdd:

Actually Coolmore has sent a number of mares to Bernardini, so they certainly aren't adverse to using Darley sires.

LanceS 07 Nov 2008 3:59 PM

By the time Curlin's offspring hit's  the track, it will be on synthetic tracks, IMO breeders need to start focusing on turf/synthetic stallions if they want to have a sought after commodity.

Robert, you want stamina look at German breed sires, not US breed, Curlin is only conciderd a middle distance horse outside NA.

Gunfighter 07 Nov 2008 5:52 PM

Scott,

There was a beautiful CH. mare offered today (did not meet the min. of $80K) at Keeneland named Homeward by Giant's Causeway that I believe would be a perfect fit with Curlin.  The enick that is as close to Curlin that I could find was that of El Corredor (Mr. Prospector/ Deputy Minister).

The question I have is why would this mare have bred to Scat Daddy?  Is the Storm Cat line of 4x3 an upcoming breeding potential? This enicks at an F as it also has Mr. P crossbred 5x3.  It doesn't make sense.  (It may be the reason why no one wanted to pay more than $80K for this beautiful mare).

TJluvsTIZS 08 Nov 2008 2:06 AM

Just a question, but what about Zenyatta and Curlin?

wendyg 09 Nov 2008 12:21 AM

If anyone hasn't seen who they just retired you'll learn so in just a minut. First off and this really ticks me off because the horse is only 2! And because he was such a stunning two year old we'll just wisp him off to stud, even though his Derby potential is HUGE!!!!!! Anybody remember Runawayandhide? The colt is unbeaten, and according to the trainer the whole package!!!!!!! Why retire him. If people were really interested in saving the sport and strenghening the breed they wouldn't do sh** like this! I can't believe it. How bout this until people actually do start to care about the sport and not money shut up and don't act like you care, cause actions speak louder than words, and this action is a slap in the face to everyone who does want the sport and breed to recover.

LDP 09 Nov 2008 2:03 PM

I think Run Away and Hide had a very bad injury that caused his

early retirement.

Pepper's Pride will probably be bred next year -I am just curious if she would be suitable to be bred to Curlin - Her pedigree is not fashionable and sort of a hodge-podge of different lines

AnneM 09 Nov 2008 9:51 PM

im only an amature but, Zenyatta has an A++ nick with Giants Causeway, A+ with AP indy and an A with Distorted Humor. Those are all very nice choices, don't you think?

mdfanofracing 09 Nov 2008 9:51 PM

AnneM, i heard it was a knee injury, but i heard nothing about it being career ending. Lawyer Ro had a bone chip coming out of the Derby, then he came back the next year and was a monster. I'm not saying run the horse into the ground, just saying, that maybe instead of say oh they pulled a tendon or oh, the have a hairline fracture, so retire them, give them some time. Some R and R or TLC, bring them back test them out, and see how they go. And again maybe if our sport would start breeding for soundness, and not speed so much things like this would not happen.

LDP 10 Nov 2008 5:42 AM

Peppers Pride makes an interesting cross when bred to Mineshaft. That nick is based on the same cross that produced Tapit, Bernardini, Great Hunter and Cool Coal Man. It's only rated a B, but she gets an A or A+ when crossed with Orientate, Johannesburg, Sky Mesa and Harlens Holiday. I tried her with Hard Spun to see where that went because he shows the same kind of spirit and determination that she has shown. It rated a D. Too bad. I think he displayed more heart & grit last season then any other horse on the track

mdfanofracing 10 Nov 2008 5:42 AM

mdfanofracing

Thanks for bringing HardSpun into the conversation.

PCO 10 Nov 2008 9:33 PM

Joulialou what a great thought Curlin and Rags To Riches. I'd pay to see those two go at it again. Bet the tussle in the Breeding Shed would be every bit as good as their battle on the track.

draynay 11 Nov 2008 1:01 PM

How would Rags To Riches work with Smarty Jones or Afleet Alex? I thought of Rags and Smarty early on but I don't know much about breeding.

paqueenb 18 Nov 2008 12:36 AM

I own mare name Biogio's Rose she 13 now- she eanrned over $800,000 on the track, G3 stake winner, & placed in G1- she by Polish Numbers

Danzig Line/Has Northern Dancers in female family. Would she cross good with Curlin?

  • Scot's reply:  Nice mare, Alfred!  The Smart Strike/Danzig cross gave us Soaring Free (pedigree), the grade I-winning and multiple-champion Canadian Horse of the Year.  His dam had a double of Northern Dancer's sire Nearctic -- including of course one instance of ND himself through Danzig.  I personally don't have a problem with Northern Dancer this close (5 x 4 x 4) but others might disagree.
Alfred 22 Nov 2008 10:38 AM

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