Great information here, I really appreciate your honest opinion however, I hestitate to think of breeding down even though it might be a good genetic match. Wouldn't betters be really confused by such a match and discount the horse? Seems to me the same would be true of potential buyers. Would they assume you didn't have the money to breed accordingly and cause your foal to be under-valued?  

• Scot's reply:  Thanks for the comments, Dona.  I sure didn't mean to imply that breeding down was a good option!  Apologies if it came across that way.  Instead, I think the breeder needs to evaluate each mare honestly and select mates that are at the same class level.  There's definitely room in the industry for $10,000 mares (meaning that's their sale value) -- and they should be matched with lower-end studs, in the range of $1,000 to $7,500 or perhaps $10,000 (that's their stud fee).  Theoretically, a stud fee should be between one and five times the "value of the mare for one year."  So, if a mare is worth $15,000 overall and theoretically has a breeding life of seven foals, her "value" for one breeding season is about $2,000, and she should be matched with a stud in the $2,000 to $10,000 range.

So, while Tiznow may not be realistic, would Tizbud be a way to get the same bloodlines at a price that would make it feasible?

• Scot's reply:  Good thinking!  The folks in California have a neat opportunity to get Tiznow's full brother.  I've never seen him but I've heard that he's got the same overall beautiful conformation. ... Reminds me that there's a good Mahubah's Corner article on full siblings:  Sibling Rivalry.

I think one mistake that novice horse breeders of all kinds make is to get so enamoured of what looks good on paper that they forget the physical attributes of the horses.  I remember when the Buckpasser-Bold Ruler cross was touted as the next coming of Nasrullah x Princequillo.  But Buckpasser and Bold Ruler-line horses both tended towards less than perfect knees, and a lot of the people who tried this cross ended up with really bad-kneed horses.  

I've also heard people I respect caution against crossing horses that are too physically dissimilar: e.g., crossing a close-coupled, short-muscled bulldog sprinter type with a long-muscled, long-bodied, lean staying type.  

When all is said and done, breeding animals of any kind has to involve taking the physical traits of the individuals into account, not just what looks good on paper.

Suddenly, all the memories of a 10 year old me come flooding back. Around 1995, I all was set planning my own farm and the only criteria I had for the stallion roster/broodmare band were they had to be either a Eclipse Champion or G1 winner, that included Lure, Colonial Affair, Cigar and Kotashan (whatever happen to him) I wonder what happen to that list,  it was definitely a doomed farm had gone with my criteria.

Great article but I would make a caution on one point and that is breeding mares that were not good runners. Bull Hancock often said you buy the family not just the individual. He made a fortune breeding full and half sisters of good runners. This is a viable option to those without great means. Being a bloodstock agent/pedigree analyst in New england I have seen this work many times first hand. My clients can't afford the six figure price of a stakes winning mare but may get an unraced sister for a fraction with good results.

  Keep up the good work

Chip Wakely   c.w. bloodstock

Where is the PRINT button? This is one of the most valuable articles I've ever seen for new breeders. If only they'd listen....

One big mistake is confusing INBREEDING with LINEBREEDING...linebreeding is common ancester multiple times in generations 3-5, Inbreeding is brother-sister, mother-son, father-daughter...the first 2 generations.

Also, if your mare has not earned a trip to the breeding shed with Tiznow, she shouldn't be bred to produce a "lower class" race horse, period. That's the problem with the thousands of throwaways in the Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse and Paint world...huge, indiscriminate breeding practices. Even breeding best to best there would still be enough foals bred to fill the racing world.

I bred working dogs for police work...females that could not pass the working test were not bred at all, not even to "lesser" males "just for the pet market", no matter how much I loved the individual dog...sentiment had NOTHING to do with trying to breed a top athelete to work.

• Scot's reply:  Interesting ideas.  You're obviously passionate about Thoroughbred welfare and I applaud that.  I've got to disagree on a few points, however.  First is inbreeding and line-breeding:  the definitions you're using are appropriate for many other industries but are incorrect when discussing Thoroughbred breeding (more here). Second, you make an illogical jump when you say that a mating below Tiznow's $75,000 fee is "indiscriminate" and that it would produce a "'lower class' race horse."  There IS room in Thoroughbred racing for breeding programs below the financial stratosphere, and indeed the industry would cease to exist if the only horses allowed to breed were grade I-winning champions.  Tesio's champions were bred from working-class stock and have influenced the breed more than some of the top-priced studs of his era....

Chris, just for info Kotashaan went to stud in Japan but is now at stud in Ireland - Ballycurragh Stud in Co Carlow I believe.

I know America does not have enough horses here and we must breed more and more and more. We need to supply europe with food. What happens to that foal when it makes it to the training track and its determined that the animal can't run and has no talent for racing or jumping and is much too excitable and hyper to be retrained as a show or dressage horse. Or perhaps as some $10 per hour hack stable mount tied to a tree all day waiting for someone to come rent them. I have personally seen this myself, a beautiful thoroughbred right off the track with a tendon injury being used as a hack, sickening. Or perhaps will the poor thing end up at a feed lot waiting for the next double stacker trailer to transport them to europe or Mexico for a most horrible death and onto someone's dinner plate. Or will they be starved by their owner in an effort to get them to reproduce.????  Why would the United States need more horse breeders? For what reason exactly.?????? Let ME guess, is it to keep the europeans fed..???? Stupid Me,  I should have known better,  its all about MONEY, who really cares about some horse that can't turn a profit for their owner.

• Scot's reply:  Well, "Whatever," I'm not sure why you're here on a forum for responsible breeders and fans instead of out at the auctions rescuing the horses that you refer to -- your cut-and-paste drivel about breeding and equine welfare does nothing to help the situation.  Unwanted horses are absolutely a problem that needs attention, but the answer is not to eliminate responsible breeding practices -- in fact, that type of response invites disastrous results and makes it more likely that poorly-bred horses will be produced. Please educate yourself on these issues and let us know when you have anything reasonable to offer. 

Cheryl, thanks for the info. 1993 is when I discovered horse racing and his campaign was spectacular.

I appreciate a peek inside the breeding industry and some of the "top 10" mistakes a newbie could - and does - make.  Really refreshing and informative.

"Whatever" definitely dropped into the wrong blog and in a nasty mood - but I have to say that I've often wondered about the last 20 years overly expansive breeding numbers.  

I remember a conversation with a groom several years ago at one of KY's premier stud farms about a recently retired stallion who was a top race horse. I was very excited to see him equal in progeny what he had achieved on the track.  

The groom shocked me by bluntly stating that one of the bigger problems in the industry was that the the commercial aspect of big stallion deals had largely eliminated the practice of "culling" colts that were good on the track but totally wrong as breeding prospects.  

He basically was telling me that my hero at the time should have been gelded and allowed to race longer until retirement - because he was doomed by bloodlines to fail at stud.  He said that - of all the thousands of stallions breeding at the time - there were probably 50 who actually were benefiting the breed.  The rest were the results of good racing careers and/or sharp business in putting together lucrative stud deals.

I didn't believe him, but years later - I've seen his words play out as fact.  The horse I admired did not transfer his talent to the breeding shed at all.  

Since then - I've tried to take a more practiced eye to the stallion game and have seen a few others - including in recent years - who are heading down the same road to mediocrity in spite of having been retired into multi-million dollar packages and launched with insane stud fees.

But all the owners/syndicates see is the big money on the front end.  By the time a stallion is exposed as a genetic wash, the first few seasons have been paid and the money is in and so let the chips fall where they may.  

I always wonder - when I see a stallion moved overseas or into a regional market - if this wasn't yet another example.

I wonder if we will ever see enough integrity and lack of greed to allow for great runners - who don't have the genetics to be great sires - instead gelded and allowed to run for multiple years.  It would certainly cut down on the overage to some degree - and would also give fans real long term heroes to root for.

Its good to know there are people out there who think like I do when it comes to breeding :)  I am a fan of taking a mare with some pedigree to her and trying to improve those bloodlines.  I reference the writer who brought up Tizbud.  Excellent choice if Tiznow is out of your range.  You better get to him now, because when his runners hit the track, I predict he will make a beeline for KY and the better mares his older brother is now getting.  I have always thought of Linebreeding being the sire line and dam line.  For example, I have a mare whose female line is Northern Dancers {N.D.} full sister Arctic Dancer {A.D.}.  Breeding to Pure Prize produced a Line bred horse back to N.D. and A.D. the full brother and sister.  Inbreeding is what Big Brown is..that being N.D., Damascus and Round Table.  But look what that carefully selected inbreeding produced.  Tesio writes in his book to inbreed to superior individuals and when you can't afford Tiznow, remember Tizbud has the same breeding and physical attributes.  For the record, my mare is going to Quiet American this year.  An inbred stallion, who has shown what careful inbreeding can do.  This is not the mares first foal, but her 5th, and her other foals are by lessor stallion and they all can run.  The mare had to EARN this bump up in the stallion ranks.  Now we can only hope for the best.  Best of Luck to all the backyard breeders out there.  Stay the Course!!

I told myself to stay away from this particular blog, because the subject matter is too broad to pemmit concise comment. That said, I feel compelled to at least respond to Cgriff's post.- How can you possibly believe that either some groom or yourself possess enough knowledge (foresight) to deem a highly talented male racehorse incapable of succeeding at stud based solely on your assessment of its pedigree? Your very statement suggests that you lack sufficient understanding of genetics to have an informed opinion of the relative merits of even its pedigree... I'm not suggesting that pedigree isn't quite important, but keep in mind that phenotype is a partial reflection of genotype. The history of the breed is littered with names of successful stallions (and broodmares) whose pedigrees were once perceived as less than stellar. For the good of the breed, should they have received the same opportunity as others who were perceived as being the total package, perhaps not. But to eliminate them entirely is quite another matter.    

Avoid the bad brothers.Look at Secret Claim,a full to Gone West.

Breed to sires who share a good female ancestor with your mare.(Tesio)

The good sires have brilliant speed at two,a distance of ground at 3,classic bloodlines and good conformation according to the great Vincent O'Brien

Sceptre,  

I in NO WAY portrayed myself as a breeding expert.  I am only recounting a conversation with someone within the breeding game (and had several decades under his belt at the time - so I'd have to think he knows a bit) and then my own observations of other horses that have gone to stud for huge money only to not pan out in the shed.  

I am not a breeder, which is why I felt this blog was so interesting.  But the fact remains that a lot less horses were bred in years past and there seemed to be a lot more top caliber geldings running.  I'm not saying they just took a broad swipe and wiped out any colt who didn't cut the pedigree mustard - but it did seem there were less stallions in the market.  

It could also have a lot to do with the fact that racing used to be a private owner's sport -and keeping the cream of the crop for breeding but still utilizing good race horses for the sport (and even later, sport riding such as Kelso enjoyed)was easier to do when you are a multi-billionaire.

The 80's brought commercial business into breeding at a much higher level.  Incredible fees, multi-million dollar yearlings - and I think people started thinking "I want some of that" and players came in who wanted to score the big money deals with whatever horse could get the job done.  Less interest in the long term and more in the immediate return.  I don't think that's an invalid observation.

So I appreciate all that you added to the conversation - and it seems that you know a bit about breeding yourself - but don't accuse me of claiming to be something I'm not.  

I'd be interested in your (and others) opinion on who you feel will be the next Storm Cat/Mr. Prospector type.  We have some very successful sires currently - but who would be the equivilent to those sires?

Looking forward to any answers!

• Scot's reply:  Great question, Cgriff!  So, everyone, Who is the next Storm Cat / Mr. Prospector?  (Of course, I already submitted my vote for Street Cry (IRE).)

Just to add my two cents: I am a small time breeder looking to produce horses I can race. When retired, my horses are either good enough to send to the breeding shed or I re-train them for polo and get to ride them myself for many years, or they get to live out their lives at my ranch. That is responsible breeding so if you do not have the means to retire, retrain, or board your horses for their entire lives, please do not start your own breeding program! Thanks!

I have two questions, would you like to see more upper tier, quality broodmares sent to breed-to-race stallions? Not that the A.P.Indys and Unbridled Song's haven't earned their status, but I wonder what a Slew City Slew or Cee's Tizzy could produce with better mares.

I guess this falls under #3, What is your take on breeding for the "almost pedigrees"? Ya know, your mare is by a lesser son of Deputy Minister and Kingmambo is out of reach so you go to his unraced full brother.

• Scot's reply:  You know, it's funny -- some stallions start out in Kentucky or Florida with lots of opportunity ... fail miserably ... move to a regional breeding program where the mares tend to be hard knockers with perhaps less commercial pedigrees ... and hit it big.  Studying pedigrees helps to PREDICT what bloodlines a new young sire will do well with, but there are no guarantees.  The lucky ones strike right away with the local mare population, the unfortunate ones never get the opportunity to cover mares that would suit them best.  ... As for the "almosts" of the sire population, I know there are multiple examples of full brothers to great runners turning into useful studs.  I'm excited about Kitalpha -- that Kingmambo full brother you're talking about -- and Spanish Steps (full to Unbridled's Song) for another reason: they offer fantastic inbreeding/RF opportunities a few generations down the line.  ... As for me, I  personally look for stallions that were SOUND on the track, meaning lots and lots of starts.  I'm breeding two mares this year, and the stallions have started 50 and 51 times.

AP Indy is probably already at that level - so I'll pass on him.

Giant's Causeway?  He is putting out good horses on every surface.

Pound for pound, though - how about Unusual Heat out in CA?  Everything he sires seems to run!

Personal fave;  Tiznow - but he mght not be as consistent across the board - but he can get the big horse year-to-year!

Tiznow - he has some good brothers, Tizbud & Budroyale, he's sired some high class, durable and versatile runners and now some of his sons are going to stud. It's still too early to tell how they'll do, but there is a lot of consistency in that line. A.P. Indy - he has some sons that are proving to be good sires, Sky Mesa (one of my favorites), Pulpit, Mineshaft, and Steven Got Even to name a few. And I haven't really heard about the A.P. Indy's having any familial problems - they seem to be fast, sturdy and haven't heard about any temperament issues.

Great article!  We breed to race and have two stallions so we are pretty committed to what stands in the back yard, but I do have something to say about all of this;

We have found that the really good race mares don't always produce good runners, but the full sisters to those mares are awesome producers.  Not really sure why, but that is what we have found.  

While I would love to breed to one of the high dollar guys, there are some stallions out there that made their money the hard way and are getting old, not-so-great producing mares.  My personal favorite is Crafty Shaw.  His bottom side is so solid, as is his top, but he gets nothing for mares.  His first crop is two now and I can't wait for them to start kicking butt on the track!  I will admit to being biased towards his female side, BUT his stud fee is reasonable and I truly believe his babies will run.  They may not be Derby winners, but they will keep the barn afloat and will bring tons of fun to their owners.  

My own stakes-winning mare is due in 4 days.  Her full sister is due today and she is not a stakes-winning mare.  Let the games and the theory begin.  At worst, I will have a great English pleasure horse with a wonderful disposition!

Some of the posts reminded me of things I have heard over the years.  I believe that Alfred Vanderbuilt once said that if he had gelded all of his male horses , he would have only made one mistake.  Of course, that "mistake" would have been Native Dancer.  

Once I was at a very famous farm in Ky looking at stallions.  This particular year, they had 2 sons of a leading sire retire to stud. The groom told me that the only reason they took horse #2 was that the owner was a long time client.  Well the long time client was right and the horse went on to sire multiple graded stakes winners and at least 1 champion and stood for a six figure stud fee for most of his career.

Great article by the way.

Cgriff- there were less stallions in the distant past, because there were less broodmares-less foals-less racehorses. So I don't see your point. You state that you recall there were more top geldings in the past than the present. You seem to attribute that observation to greater culling practices in the past. I'm fairly confident this wasn't the case. You appear to offer Kelso as an example of this. Kelso wasn't gelded (by Mrs. DuPont) due to a belief that his pedigree was insufficient-neither was Forego, etc., etc. I dare say horses are gelded at the same rate today as before, perhaps at an even greater rate. Fact is the stallion population has somewhat decreased of late-due to the increased sizes of books of the more prominent stallions. I don't consider this to be a positive direction....Scot, I don't agree with your observation re- the "some stallions" hitting it big (inference when bred to hard-knocking regional mares) when relocated to regional markets. Had they been deemed to indeed have "hit it big" they would have then been relocated back to KY (as example). As you know, this is an extremely rare occurrance. Those that you perceive to be hitting it big appear to do so due to the "big fish in a small pond" dynamic. Their regional offspring then, for the most part, compete against regional-breds. Yes, there have been some rare exceptions to this, but generally seen in repatriated stallions to S. America. It has been virtually impossible to "make" a stallion outside of KY or Fla-very rarely MD or Calif. It does take two to tango, let alone the disparity in horsemanship and ownership found in those regions as compared to the major breeding centers. But, I certainly do believe that many potentially elite stallions are lost in the shuffle-never given opportunity to get the better mares, etc. One reason I deplore the aforesaid gigantic books. You see, I have little regard for the average breeder's ability to properly assess stallion potential. They simply go with the flow.        

Interesting stuff!IIi would like   I would like to learn more about the breeding process, do you have any suggestions of web sites or books I can read? I always wanted to get involved in breeding, allthough I won't be able to keep any for my Polo stock, but I don't want them to end up at Ernie Paragallo's farm either. Most of it seems like  hit and miss and mostly miss.Do most breedersDDo most t le consult with Blood Stock agents or consignors first,and what gurus do you suggest?

Good article...and by the way Senator Federico Tesio bred one of his best world fame runners because the sire he wanted was not available and he stuck with what he could afford.

In regrards to "Cgriff"'s comment about responsible breeding and "whatever"'s tiraid (sp?) about breeding for europe's dinner plate, I share both thier sentiment and feel that one way to avoid overpopulation of unwanted and useless horse is to make breeding them very difficult indeed. If you are serious about breeding Thoroughbreds then get thoroughly educated and make darn sure you can afford to make sure that the animals you bring into this world are properly cared for for the rest of thier lives. NOONE IS MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT ANIMAL THAN THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT IT HERE. And there needs to be a law about that if anything is ever going to change. That jughead/birdbrain Ernie Paragallo is a perfect example of irrisponsibilty and I hope to God he gets severly punished for his actions.

Just one question:  Why does virtually everyone place the responsiblity for the horse for a lifetime solely on the breeder?  The breeder is producing a product for a market, i.e, a horse for a consumer to race, just as Ford Motor Co. produces vehicles for consumers to drive.  If your 1998 F150 breaks down on the Long Island Expressway, do you call Ford Corporate Hdqtrs. to come and take care of it? Absolutely not -- legally, it is the owners responsibility to take care of the vehicle, not the manufacturer. Why is the breeder supposed to care for every horse he has bred and sold?  What has happened to horse OWNER responsibility?

Thanks Scott, for your comments...I care about animal welfare, but what I'm passionate about is breeding superior animals, so I'll stand by my answer about "second-tier" breeding...I guess I'm passionate 'cause in my breeding world (police, bomb, rescue K-9s) people's lives are at stake. OK off my soapbox ;-)!

PS My definition of inbreeding vs linebreeding is Genetics 101 definition, trust the Thoroughbred world to be the ones to change its definition just for them! But, then they do think fillies and mares are "ladies" ...LOL!!!

Sarah, the breeder owns part of a lifetime obligation because he brought a LIVING entity, not just a piece of metal, into the world and holds a moral obligation to that living entity to ensure they sell it to a decent owner and to help ensure a decent life and a compassionate end to that life...it's like Ghandi said (I have to paraphrase) "You can tell the soul of a nation by how it treats its animals.

I have bred working K-9's since 1986...every puppy or dog that has left here has a lifetime guarantee that they can come back here...I have not had to take back many dogs, but I have had them come back as old as 9, which in a German Shepherd would be the equivalent of a 20+ horse..why? because it was the right thing to do.

"Do what's right, because it's right and do it right".

Dear da3hoss,

I share your conviction that the lifetime well-being of the horse (I'd extend this to nearly all living creatures) should be assured. Your proposal to that end is, unfortunately, unworkable. We need to be extremely creative about this in order to effect meaningful change.

Great advice. I bred whatever I could get in Uruguay in the early nineties (we won the statistics in racing for a couple of years - La Felicidad)  - and imported a couple of USA broodmares, a son of Raise a Native, and various Argentine racers. Didn't make money in those days but sure loved to death walking in the pastures to mentor my broodmares and their babies. Now I'm back. A ton has happened in Uruguay. High class pedigrees abound from Argentina and Brazil and USA. Major investors have re-invented Marones. I'm starting small with a couple of two year olds to be trained that are by one of my old speed race horses - who has become one of the leading breeding stallions in Uruguay. What a thrill. And saludas to San Miguel QueGuay.

Question - a good broodmare with decent pedigree who may or may not have run: what is the probable percentage of her foals that  could be winners?  When I go to "remates" at various Haras, I realize that out of 40 to 50 being peddled, probably 5 or 6 will be at least winner of one or two, if that many and maybe one a star. Yet we still get excited to come up with that star.  

TO ROBERT: You wrote, "Tizbud has the same breeding and physical attributes."

Well, not quite. I'm no genetic scientist, but even I know that full siblings do not inherit identical genes from their parents. While full siblings will have the same pedigree, they are likely to can carry and pass on very different genes.

The study of Thoroughbred genetics is still in its infancy. I learned from the Thoroughbred Heritage website that the Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland, conducted ground-breaking mitochondrial DNA research into Thoroughbred female lines. They uncovered pedigree errors in the General Stud Book related to how the different female families are categorized.

While I find these results interesting, I'm more eager for future genetic studies to map the Thoroughbred genome, and to identify equine genetic diseases and heritable defects.

To provide one practical example of how this kind of research could potentially help breeders make better decisions, I'll use the case of Reviewer (Bold Ruler x Broadway, by Hasty Road). Although a well-bred stakes winner, he was a fragile colt who suffered cannon bone fractures at least twice during his racing career. Reviewer was euthanized in 1977 after further damaging a fractured leg when he thrashed coming out of anesthesia for a cast change. He fractured the leg in a paddock accident a few weeks earlier.

Despite his multiple fractures, Reviewer went to stud, where he sired the now-legendary, but tragic Ruffian. She, as we all know, fractured two sesamoids during a match race with Foolish Pleasure. Ruffian also had to be euthanized when she thrashed coming out of anesthesia after surgery.

Would genomic research have revealed that Reviewer carried a genetic predisposition to fragile bones? We'll never know. But maybe such research could lead to breeding sounder horses in the future. In the meantime, until such data is readily available, I'm grateful to Scot for widely sharing his knowledge of responsible breeding practices, and to Blood-Horse for providing this forum.

Karen In Indiana-the only issue with the Slew-line is a propensity to have knee issues.  I know this because we have this pedigree and we are extremely careful with our 2yr olds.  Chips a'plenty if you push them.  Seems to be a non-issue as they get older.  Disposition-wise, bring them on!  You would be hard-pressed to find nicer horses to be around.  Ours are kind to the bone and tons of fun to be around.  And boy do they try hard!

To Karin C-C:

The Buckpasser-Bold Ruler cross was never "touted" as the next-coming of anything. Its relative frequency was due to the fact that the Phipps family (bred and raced Buckpasser) had many Bold Ruler mares ;the family (mother) also bred and raced Bold Ruler. Since many of their Bold Ruler mares reasonably outcrossed with Buckpasser they pursued this avenue for a while. This cross yielded poor results, but not because both Buckpasser and Bold Ruler were "bad-kneed". Rather, Buckpasser (as was his sire, Tom Fool) was a bit back at the knee, and Bold Ruler tended to sire heavy-shouldered horses. It was later presumed that the blending of overly heavy front end with imperfect knee conformation caused a greater degree of unsoundness with this cross. Allow me to hasten to add that, other than his knees, Buckpasser was the most perfect, magnificent, breathtaking specimen I have ever seen-not to mention the greatest racehorse of my lifetime. A supreme credit to the breed, his bloodlines should be cherished and kept "alive".  

To Karin C-C:

The Buckpasser-Bold Ruler cross was never "touted" as the next-coming of anything. Its relative frequency was due to the fact that the Phipps family (bred and raced Buckpasser) had many Bold Ruler mares ;the family (mother) also bred and raced Bold Ruler. Since many of their Bold Ruler mares reasonably outcrossed with Buckpasser they pursued this avenue for a while. This cross yielded poor results, but not because both Buckpasser and Bold Ruler were "bad-kneed". Rather, Buckpasser (as was his sire, Tom Fool) was a bit back at the knee, and Bold Ruler tended to sire heavy-shouldered horses. It was later presumed that the blending of overly heavy front end with imperfect knee conformation caused a greater degree of unsoundness with this cross. Allow me to hasten to add that, other than his knees, Buckpasser was the most perfect, magnificent, breathtaking specimen I have ever seen-not to mention the greatest racehorse of my lifetime. A supreme credit to the breed, his bloodlines should be cherished and kept "alive".  

Regarding "noncommercial" pedigrees, there's a two-word answer:  Seattle Slew.  Who would have thought that a $17,000 yearling purchase would ever be "commercial," much less start a dynasty?

To answer cgriff's question--how about Smart Strike taking his sire's place?  

Regarding inbreeding creating the American Thoroughbred. Taking a strain of endurance horses (i.e. horses that can race long distances day after day), and creating a breed that can't race one mile more often than every two or three weeks may be an achievement, but is it one to be proud of? Outcrossing, and thus hybrid vigor, need to have its place as well.

For Big Red......You are correct in that even full siblings are different, but they do have the same gene pool with which their physical attributes come from.  The sire and dam's genes don't change....for the most part.  I am not taking into account radiation or other natural disasters.  Just generally speaking.  Remember Secretariat has a full sister who could not run a lick, yet he is world famous.  I would still want "The Bride's" bloodlines because of the family.  Tizbud and Tiznow look alot alike and they have pretty much the same temperment and running style.  I would love to have a mare in foal to Tizbud, but only because Tiznow is out of range.  Another example would be Graustark and His Majesty.  Graustark, while a chestnut, sired better fillies than colts and they had speed and could go long.  His Majesty is a good sire of both fillies and colts but for the most part, they were distance horses.  My point being this:  everytime you breed a mare, your opportunities for a different foal are limitless.  One final point.....My thanks to Scot for starting this blog converstaion.  I have learned alot from everyone's posting.  Keep them coming :)

Devils Advocate--good point; that comment in Scot's original post bothered me when I read it, but I didn't know how to put it without sounding arrogant.   I'm a bigger fan of the stocky stallions who tend to produce horses with stamina (think those lovely Roberto line stallions like Dynaformer!) than those spindly-legged Mr. Prospector descendants like Unbridled's Song.

I am so tired of the current fad/witchhunt of the animal rights movement.  If a breeder is rolling in dough and breeds good horses and sells out due to health issues, you are expecting them to take on the care of every animal they ever bred and then ready to rip them to pieces if each one doesn't get individual daily attention and is in survivable but less than ideal condition.  The best of matings can produce a dud and two duds can produce a millionaire.  Nobody can know the future.  If I sell an ex-racehorse to an auction that I bought as a riding horse and it didn't work out because either it was a nut or I didn't know what I was getting into and thought I could love it into being a schoolhorse, I am not responsible?  Instead I get a free pass for being an idiot and all the blame goes to somebody that hasn't seen the horse in years and doesn't even own a farm anymore?  This is what is so ridiculous.  Everybody is on the hunt to "out" the evil animal abusers without any regard to the facts of situations.  Some owners pay people to take care of their animals, either at boarding farms or their own farms, not all managers are honest.  Some owners run out of money due to the economic situation and hope that since the horses aren't worth anything in this current market that they can scrape by long enough to get through and pick back up so they don't go straight to the killers.   But if you've got a bad-tempered horse that's not rideable and not good breedingstock, what are a person's choices today?  Most horse rescues are full, expect you to pay them to take the horse or don't have the money to care for the horse.  If you give it away or sell it cheap you'll get barred from the tracks because it ended up at a stockyard, if you keep it when you can't afford it you'll get charged with neglect if it's below a body condition of 4, regardless of why.  If you try to sell it at a higher price you get no offers or picked at that you are an idiot for asking so much.  If you euthanize it you can no longer get the carcass picked up but it's illegal to do anything but bury it, even if it would take dynamite to get a deep enough hole to be legal.  Exactly what in the hell is a down on their luck horse person to do?  I say this witchhunt for "abusers" should end and some compassion should begin of people putting their dollars behind their words.  Not one horse at a time but one auction at a time, every single horse gets bought up, every single day of every single auction.  And then, that day, the "rescuers" have to find a place for each of those horses to stand and get the necessary feed and hay shipped in and get the necessary vet work done immediately with no excuses accepted for any delays.  Once those people have found a way to make this situation work, then they can start telling me what I can and can't breed.  Until then I will have the right to try to breed and raise horses that can pay for themselves and their failed siblings and keep my head above water financially so that I can do what I have been doing for years, trying to take care of my affairs and help those around me when I can.

Full-siblings, on average, possess slightly less than 50% identical genes. Note, though, that I said "on average". There can be great variability from one sibling pair to another... His Majesty was not considered as a more distance influence than Graustark. It is a bit to the contrary, as (for example) His Majesty is classified as a "C" (classic) chef, whereas Graustark is classified a "C-S (stout)" chef. That said, while many consider His Majesty to be the better sire of the pair, I feel it was Graustark. Graustark was also much more than just a "filly sire"... Lastly, to Scot: The fact that the breed was derived through inbreeding practices does not, in itself, lend support to the notion that this practice should be maintained today.

That rant by Tired of the witchhunt sounds a lot like what I would imagine Mr. Paragallo would say. 177 horses, some of them with foals. You say you have the right to be left alone so you can do what you've always done and that sometimes financially rough times can make it difficult. Did you contact the humane society or animal control or anyone for help? Or did you quit visiting the ranch so it could be out of sight and out of mind? I'm sure everyone on this site has had to deal with something difficult in life, but some problems don't just 'go away' if you ignore them long enough. Unless you quit feeding them properly and they all just die. You don't have the right to say 'these are my horses and I'll starve them to death if I want to'. From what's been reported, the conditions remind me of concentration camps. Those animals depend on us to care for them and if we don't do it, what are they supposed to do? If a person runs into trouble and can't care for their animals the way they should be cared for, the answer is NOT to breed more hoping they hit the jackpot with one of them. That's what gambling addicts would do. And if that's your problem, you shouldn't be allowed to own, race, breed or touch any horse ever again. If you get a horse and it turns out the horse is a nut, there will be someone out there who likes nuts. I have a part pit bull that 99.9% would have already put down, but I've spent a lot of time and energy socializing her and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I also don't totally trust her and I keep that in mind. The point being: there are alternatives, you might have to eat your pride and ask fior help, there is no excuse for malnutrition to the point of starvation, lice, worms, broken fences. If the horse rescues are full, go public. ASK FOR HELP!

Scot, I'm sorry and I'll understand if you don't want to post this, but what this person has said can't go unanswered.

To da3hoss:  How long have you been breeding thoroughbreds?  I would guess not long, if ever.  After you get some 'real world' experience, please write again about 'horse welfare' issues.  Are you unaware that the sellers at major auctions such as Keeneland have absolutely no control over who buys their horses; or that the sales companies will not even release the names and addresses of the 'real' buyers?  This makes watching, supervsing, or even finding these sales horses impossible if they never race -- and sometimes even if the do -- I could go on about irresponsible owners who have been asked to return the horses to the breeders if unwanted but totally ignore this request, etc.

Please find your way into reality -- thoroughbreds are NOT K-9's!!!

www.horsereunions.com  Database where breeders can post that they will take back or assist in re-homing horses created by them, and where people can post if trying to locate a particular horse from their past, etc.  This database will become better and more useful the more people use it, so to all you truly responsible breeders out there, sign on up!

Thanks for this article! Super appealing to any one intending to breed only one horse, or at small or big scale.

It is well known that thoroughbred lovers are attracted more by the thrill of living the experience of breeding and running a horse ... and dreaming to be lucky enough to win the Kentucky derby! Examples like Seattle Slew, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Smarty Jones, Giacomo  and even Big Brown, demonstrate that you do not need to be a billionare in order to acquire (or breed) a champion. Taking the last 16 Kentucky Derbys as yardstick we can infere a probability of at least  40% chance to see a champion who is not "regally bred" or belonging to a highly commercial lineage. A horse like General Quarters has just confirmed that you can even get a bargain at claiming level. Every time a Blue blooded horse loses to lesser regarded horses we remind ourselves that there is no law or infalible rule on building superior pedigrees. However, there are obvious successful patterns which are immediately substatiated by the market. Point in case, the current success of Unbridled/ Unbridled's Song and A.P. Indy lines. luckily, As pointed out in this forum we will always have the hope and chances for "equivalent" individuals to reproduce any royal pedigree ... fortunately, the opportunities in America are so ample that we can pursue any racing dream.

I agree with Whatever. I see too much of it first hand. People breed horses with no talent to horses who had little talent or were unsound (from unsound bloodlines) thinking that they might get the one in ten thousand stakes horse. There are thousands of starved and  mistreated thoroughbreds in this country bred by people who don't have a clue what they are doing and won't try to educate themselves (they breed $500.00 mares to $200.00 stallions. I have two mares which  I will never breed again (one has produced an allowance winner) because I don't want to add to the number of unwanted horses in this country. By the way, I have four retired horses that I raced which I chose to keep because they are my responsiblity. I think your article is a very good one.  

Actually Karen in Indiana, I am not Mr Paragallo and have no association with him whatsoever.  However, another interpretation to the reported facts of his case are that he was trying to get out of horse ownership, trusted some people he shouldn't have, expected more from his help than he should have and didn't spend the cash he was sending as wisely as he should have.  This is why I asked for a workable solution to the current situation where a horse owner is stuck between a rock and a hard place when they are trying to no longer own horses that currently have little to no value. The "don't breed" argument is not realistic.  I support my animals, both bred and bought, with the income from the race and sale of horses that I breed and buy.  You (The group "You" not just Karen) have no right to tell me that I should not be breeding just because you don't agree with my choices because you don't have a workable solution and my choice to breed horses is providing the funds to care for the horses that I own.  My opinions come from being here every day making the decisions that affect me, the people that I assist when I have extra money and the animals I am responsible for on a daily basis.  You have a hypothetical approach on the majority of the issues that make me ignore your rhetoric because it is not realistic.  The thing that you don't seem to acknowledge is that bad things can happen to good people.  I was trying to address the situation that many good people have hit where they cannot care for their horses today due to circumstances that they can later recover from and these people need some compassion so they can feel safe asking for help rather than fear that they will be the next person blackballed and abused in the media with distorted facts that equate them to a Hitler of horses.  This type of treatment makes even people that take quality care of their animals re-think keeping that old broodmare around for a couple more retirement years now that she's starting to look rough or putting the time and money into rehabbing that injured colt that will look like hell for a while during recovery and will end up a pasture ornament with a limp.  It's not worth the risk to a reputation just to get the ongoing responsibility of deciding if today is the day to put the animal down.  If people would try finding out why something happened and try to help fix the problem rather than finding joy in parading the sordid pseudo-facts around, more people might ask for help rather than do their damndest to make it through and hide the problem until it's too late.  

So to bring this back around to the original subject, maybe Point 8 should be: "Listen to the right people."  Not the loudest, or the most persistent, or the one that spouts the most politically correct buzzwords.  Ask questions of people that are successful at what you want to do and then follow their advice.  Don't listen to the people that talk the talk and don't walk the walk:  Trainers that view owners as ATM machines rather than clients that expect to make money, pedigree analysts that haven't plied their trade privately long enough to have results to back up their suggestions, people from non-racing backgrounds that base their breeding or racing opinions on pseudo-facts or irrelevant facts, stallion owners that aren't supporting their stallion with their own mares, racehorse breeders that won't race their own foals.  Find someone that is successful in the position you want to be in and then learn from them how they got there.  You can always make changes once you truly understand what's going on but not listening to hard learned lessons is one of the easier ways to fail.

   i wish breeders would concentrate more on on stamina than speed !!! I hope the day doesnt come that all of the Triple Crown races are not shortened because today's Thoroughbreds cant keep up!!

      Itruly believe that Anyone who truly loves the Thoroughbred  should be a responsible breeder! If Ihad the ways and means I'd love to adopt as many as possible!!!

Pedigree Shelly---I totally agree that breeders should be focused on increasing stamina.   But speed is what sells---and young speed sells even better.   Who cares if the horse has legs that look like matchsticks?!?  It only has to race a year---maybe a year and a half!

The recently departed Stage Colony was sooooo underappreciated.  By Pleasant Colony out of a Stage Door Johnny mare (tell me that doesn't SCREAM stamina), and his full sister (Pleasant Stage) won the Breeder's Cup Juvenile fillies.  Yet, he ended his career at Buck Pond (home of other underappreciated stallions with good pedigrees) standing for $1500.

Yet a speedball with bad feet or bad legs can stand for 6 figures and cover 100+ mares a year.  *sigh* until breeders wake up and realize that speed isn't everything, we can kiss a Triple Crown goodbye!