Great subject, guess I will start off with some comments.  In the U.S. Steeplechasing scene, I remember that offspring from Northern Baby (son of Northern Dancer) made quite an impression about 10-15 years ago...I saw Northern Baby run at Maisons-Laffite in Paris around 79-80, but he was a flat runner with some class...not sure what made him such a prominent sire for jumpers later in the US.  I think a flat-racing sire develops a reputation as a sire of steeplechasers, when more than 2 or 3 of his get achieve some level of achievement in the sport...the pool is relatively small, and breeders and buyers pick up on anything that constitutes a trend, and in steeplechasing, 2-3 good jumpers from a flat-racing sire becomes a trend.

Im leery to say that breeders look for size when trying to develop a good jumper, because while a walk around the paddock at an NSA meet will reveal some of the most beautiful AND large physical specimens of the thoroughbred breed, just as often, you'll find a "normal" horse being a super jumper....Saluter comes to mind.  Also remember seeing the English horse Captain Christy jumping over fences at Auteuil more than 35 years ago-- he wasn't big at all, but he could jump!!!  

Maybe it's the mental makeup of the sire-line...afraid to comment on this, as I have no real good evidence...but can anyone comment on how Storm Cats perform over fences?.....as opposed, to say...Broad Brush offspring (for me, the epitome of what should be a good jump sire, if only taking temperament and physical reach in account).

Some prominent lines include Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew, Alydar, Danzig, Babamist, Bonne Nuit, Ben Faerie, Bold Ruler, Fappiano, Good Twist, Damascus, Round Table, Cormac, Cottage Son, Dynaformer, Gone West, Cox Ridge, My Babu, Hoist The Flag, Hail to Reason, Key to the Mint, In Reality, Irish Castle, Key Bridge, Ladykiller, Kris S, Leerfan, Majestic Light, Mr. Prospector, Nearco, Nasrullah, Native Dancer, Princequillo, Raise a Native, Relaunch, Ribot, Roberto, Red Ransom, Sir Ivor, Secretariat, and Storm Cat... among many others...

McDynamo -- need I say more?

I come from a Quarter Horse show horse background and we have long crossed TB mares with QH stallions (and sometimes the reverse) to get our Hunter and Hunter Under Saddle horses. The lines I've found best to cross for size, movement and mind have been Seattle Slew, Buckpasser, Bold Ruler, Cox's Ridge, Hail To Reason, Fappiano, and Native Dancer, although you have to be careful with that one because they can be too hot.

I am a passionate advocate of the American Thoroughbred and believe a huge disservice has been done by modern "fad marketplace" breeders/pinhookers/agents...who breed strictly for "brilliant" under 10 seconds and quarter horse splits...the American Thoroughbred used to be a much more popular dressage, top level 3-day horse. It may be on a comeback, the current top ranked American Olympic Level team is a thoroughbred and there is another top ranking TB team, plus a couple more TB teams...the two top horses even raced briefly.

Currently:

Courageous Coment, 2008 USA Olympic Team (age 12)and JUST STARTING his career at this level,

Racing Career: 36 Starts, 4 Wins, 2 Places, 7 Shows Career Earnings: $71,780

Fappiano grandson, Bold Ruler grgrandson, Stage Door Johnny, Northern Dancer,

Poggio II, 2008 Olympic team, a TOP ranked USA team, age 16,

Raced 4 times as "Chesterstimetoofly", one win, earned $1900, a POLYNESIAN FLYER son out of Red God, Dancer's Image, Noor line mare.

Also at top levels:

Truluck,(Maha Baba out of Grayfully) age 12, just starting his top level career. Swaps,Bold Ruler, Missy Baba

The Foreman, a Roberto grandson, Never Bend, Graustark sire line, by a SMARTAIRE (Curlin dam granddam) granddaughter from Swaps, Mahmoud, Polynesian lines.

The incomparable Gem Twist (JC "Icey Twist") (1979-2006), competed at the highest levels, at the Olympic Grand Prix 3 day level he is the "Man O'War" of Event horses, World Equestrian Games in 1990 he earned the title "World's Best Horse" at age 11, 3x HOY, the last time at age 14, at age 16 he helped his third rider earn "Rookie of the Year", he retired at age 18, sound and in good health): Triple inbred to Man O'War, with Whiskbroom, Count Fleet and Black Toney lines.

Sometimes it's hard to trace bloodlines, because event riders change horses' names.

Breed 'em sounder and they will come...

I know the Seattle Slew line has had some success with steeplechasers.  Slew sired Yaw, who won back-to-back running of the big race at Saratoga, A.P. Indy had Racey Dreamer and Muscle Car, and Pulpit (somewhat surprisingly given his reputation for hot-tempered offspring) has Orison and Seer.  There may be others.

When I lived in NC, one of the sport horse sires there was a beautiful son of Secretariat.  I agree with an earlier poster, too, that bigger isn't always better.  I've seen 15 - 16 hand Morgans with better athletic ability than some large TBs but there is a mindset that only TBs or warmbloods can be sport horses. It all depends on the horse.

What lines today?

The first one that comes to mind, if he stays sound (aha! the dreaded "soundness" word) is Summer Bird, I mean when I saw him the first time in a paddock area (albeit on TV) I sat straight up and went "whoa!, what an athelete, whi IS this horse!")

Pleasant Tap...great, correct walk from all angles, raced through age 5...lovely horse.

Sun King, too, great stallion...love these two guys...

Just thought I'd mention why I wouldn't use my favorite stallion, Tiznow, unless with extreme caution..that back problem...when you breed for soundness into their late teens, not just speed for a couple of years, all these things factor into the equation...not just emotional "love" for a gutsy, awesome horse. I don't need the "fastest" for a performance horse, I need the soundest.

I have a Appendix Qh by Tinners Way (secretariat) that I bred specifically for dressage.  She is incredibly talented and her mind is so much better than her qh dam that came from Raise an Native lines.  Drf have a great article about Secretariats sons doing well as dressage producers.

Warmbloods have taken over the upper level ranks, but in the old days, jumper Idle Dice went tale male to Phalaris, and jumper Jet Run (ridden to his best success by Michael Matz) went tale male to Teddy.

I am not as sure up close, but we have several warmbloods that all go back to Man O War through his son War Relic.  More specifically they go through Relic.  He seems to have been a prolific sire in Europe of Oldenbergs.  A friend of my son's has just bought a OTTB gelding that has a very similar sire line to the warmbloods that we have.  

Out of interest, do you get many horses tracing back to Deep Run over in the US?  He was a prolific National Hunt sire over here in the UK and sired more than his fair share of performance horses as far as I remember, I often wonder if his influence continues around the world.  He was a class horse as a racer too, finishing not too far behind Nijinsky as a 2 year old, and I may be right in saying he was fourth in the following year's Derby to the same horse.

Springsmom83, War Relic is in almost all the pedigrees in my posts, Swaps is in a lot of them, too.

As a horsemen that has  worked with and around flat and jump racers my entire life I would tend to agree with P Rynn.  The band wagon fills quickly.  Be it a nick in matings or making a case for what appears to be a "jump sire".  I believe these things happen because the law of averages mandates it will.  Warmbloods have been the horse of choice for a number years now.  I don't believe the breed is more athletic then a TB but they tend to be less "hot headed" and easier to ride for the average person.  Conversely I don't feel that Thoroughbreds by enlarge are "hot headed" as a breed.  But have been branded due to their early and intense training for racing.  Experience has shown me that some can be re-schooled easily and quickly, some take much longer and unfortunately a lot will never be worth the effort. Because of the time and money it takes it takes to get a jumper to the races one might as well start with a bloodline that appears to have an affinity for the jumping game.  But I can state with confidence that pedigree and or race record by in large has little bearing on a potential jumpers future.  I have seen speed pedigrees run with authority at 3 to 4 miles, a 15-2 horse that could not out run a fat man on the flat win the Maryland Hunt Cup, 4 miles 22 fences most approaching 5 feet.   When I am looking for potential jumper, hurdle or timber I look more for type and temperament and then hopefully with a pedigree and some race record that I can get behind.   I train a Dynaformer that is the real deal over Timber which I got as a 5 year old, now 8.  He is a big horse standing over 17 hands and extremely well made.  He showed a lot of talent on the flat as a 3 year old but came up with a suspensory.  He truly tested me from the first day I got on his back.  But after several months he came around.  He learned to jump quickly and has natural ability.  A quick learner to boot.  Second in his first stake over timber beaten a length to a Timber Champion as a maiden. Can one say that Dynaformer is or will be a good jump sire? Hard to say. But certainly if one has to choose between a Dynaformer and  one by a stallion that has not had anything run over jumps with success, all other things being equal I would take the Dynaformer.  Interestingly, when it comes to Storm Cat I can't think of a single one running over fences.  Not even one that has failed.  This maybe due to several factors; A lot of Storm Cat's have soundness issues and never make it to the races.  Most are never gelded due to the fact that they have been worth more as a stallion prospect then a jump prospect.  Though I suspect this will change now that the market has.  A good question for Mr. Strawbridge a leading breeder and owner of well bred flat horses and the ones that don't excel on the  flat go to his jumping stable.  I suspect that Jonathan Sheppard may be able to provide some insight.  Seattle Slew, again, anything by him will be well bred as would AP Indy's and Pulpit's. So one is starting out with so one is starting out with pedigree potential.  Yaw, was a very good horse over fences.  But he was also a nut and very difficult to ride.  A true credit to the talents of Mr. Sheppard and the people that rode him.  If you think it takes guts and talent to ride in a flat race that is over is less then 2 minutes in a totally controlled environment then envision being on the back of one of 1-15 horses flying over stout timber fences for 3 1/2 to 4 miles, 6 to 8 minutes at speeds approaching 30 mph through the country side.  No disrespect for the talents of flat jockeys.

As I have said to people over the years; All horses jump but most horses do not jump very well.

The history of McDynamo and how he got started in jumping fascinated me. He found his niche and excelled. When I saw photos of Nicanor earlier this year and got a look at his feet and knees, he looked like he'd be a really good steeplechaser. I mentioned that once on the keeping track blog and got jumped on. :-) He hasn't done well on dirt so far, but has on grass so I still wonder how good he'd be jumping.

• Scot's reply:  Avalyn Hunter did a nice write-up of McDynamo in her Mahubah's Corner column a while back:  Magnificent McDynamo.  Well worth a read for both steeplechase fans and admirers of the great Dynaformer.

the ango arab  and irish hunter  have long been known  as a good source of hunting\ eventing blood all half  tbs.  and manny  tb  have won cups  for there jumping, gem twist moloki,  jet run, keen, to name just a couple and if it were not for nearco  not one of  them would have had the sucess  that  they have had!

go baby go  good blog!!! bye nyfalcon

Equus already hit the high notes, but as a lifelong hunter rider, "TB person" and breeder for the ring, I'll give another shout-out to Best Turn, particularly through Cox's Ridge (I'll go look at ANYTHING with CR up close); Secretariat, particularly through Gone West; Spectacular Bid; Fappiano; Key to the Mint; and, especially here on the West Coast, Pretense and In Reality.

The hunter world is split on the Storm Cat and Mr. Prospector lines. You'll find people who love them and those who hate them.

I have one lovely off-track TB I found through CANTER (a wonderful, WONDERFUL group!) whom I bought based on a photo and his pedigree and had shipped from Michigan to California. Even in racing shape, he **looked** like a hunter, and his pedigree screamed it: Gone West and Cox's Ridge on the top, Key to the Mint and In Reality on the bottom.

Little wonder that he has turned out to be the fanciest, most honest, kindest show hunter I have ever had the pleasure to ride. I'd love to have a barnful like him.

Thanks, I'll read that. I have the Inside Information video about him saved on the DVR.

I could go on at book length on this topic.  It's been my personal obsession for years.

First--a few very favorite personal line. Rialto sire of Wild Risk, Sif, and a couple of others are very, very special.  Lavendula and her daughters and sons and their descendants. Mourne. Count Fleet. Relic and War Relic. Blenheim.  Gainsborough.    

I truly believe that almost all thoroughbreds are extremely talented athletes, whether they flat race or not.  There are very few lines that don't have both the athleticism and the genetics bred in from the closed stud book to jump. What is needed is the desire and temperament to take the training.  And functional conformation which is not exactly the same for sport horses as for flat racers.  www.ivis.org/.../39.pdf But it's also clear that some lines are better than others.

I've now gotten to the point where I can look at a pedigree and say this one looks like a good sport horse prospect.  You can't tell from the close up breeding, but from the 3rd back you really can, and the linebreeding helps enormously.  I frequently cross reference to European Sport Horse databases to find out which TBs the WB Breeders have added to their mix.  

Today I was poking around in Pedigree Query and found a mare in Canada named Ebony Mystique www.pedigreequery.com/ebony+mystique

There is not a line in her pedigree that doesn't scream sport horse prospect to me.

Some of the Mr.P sons are excellent sport horse sires. Gone West, some Fappianos, Conquistador Cielo are all very well thought of.  Some Mr.P sons are not.  Storm Cat isn't liked yet, in part for temperament reasons and in part for conformation.

What most sport horse people who are pedigree obsessed want to see is IMPORTS that bring back lines that have nearly vanished and hybrid vigor. 6f dirt sprinters are not promising candidates if the breeding is specifically for that.  We also look for older lines that are known to have produced sport horse performers as close in the pedigree as possible. We prefer lines like Never Bend and Hawaii (sire of Molokai and damsire of Von Csadek) and Crozier and Carnivalay and Roberto on top of mares with similar breeding.

Just the other day, I was looking at a 1956 horse named Bagdad.  He's Double Jay out of Bazura.  Double Jay is well established in sport horse land, and Bazura is Blue Peter (well established in sport horse land) out of a Bahram (well established in sport horse land/Salmon-Trout (well established in sport horse land) mare.  Female family is 14-b. Without knowing anything else, the genes for jumping had to be there.  Turns out that Bagdad had a full brother Bazaar who started 61 times and Bazaar sired a jumper who showed as Rise and Rule.  Rise and Rule was a puissance specialist who won the high jump at the two biggest horse shows in North America, one win having been at seven feet.  

Bold Bidder is in the bloodlines of at least three Olympic event horses from the past three Olympics.  

There really are too many to go into here, but the bloodlines are still around that produced both soundness, stamina, and "the jump".

Oh, another example.  There was a Herod line stallion named Dollar.  His descendants all carry the jump.  One of his great granddaughters was named Quarantaine. She was sired by Sea Sick by Elf by Upas by Dollar.  She was the dam of the very great Battleship by Wan O'War.  Her damline is to Queenie who is noted progenitor of steeplechasers.  Upas is also sire line to Ksar, who was the dam sire of two USET grand prix jumpers and multiple steeplechasers.  His son Tourbillon is sireline to many, many sport horses in the eventing world and the jumping world.

Teddy is one of the greatest, and if you see a large number of lines to Teddy, you know that the odds of the horse being great in sport are very high.  Right now, there is an Ortello/Sirte line Teddy descendant who is standing for hunters in Virginia.

In the very, very dim TB past, the lines that you would like to find in the hundreds if possible are are Touchstone and the four full siblings from Buzzard/Alexander Mare (female family 2-o), and the Alexander Mare's daughter the Orville Mare;  and female family 3-o through Black Duchess and her granddaughter Blanche.  Teddy was FF2-o and descends from Bronze, full sister of Castrel and Selim, both of whom founded jumping sire lines.

I think the main point in issue is that sport horse people don't care about precocious speed at 6f.  As long as that's what NA racing is about, finding really high level TB performers will be hard here;  but 99.9% of TBs have the talent to make nice amateur and lower level sport horses.

The sport of eventing probably uses the most thoroughbreds, whether off the track or bred to event than any other sport.  I have seen a lot of Babamist, My Babu, Damascus, Nasrullah, Nearco, Roberto, Kris S in event horses. While the sport is slanting toward the warmblood/sport horse crosses, the thoroughbred still prevails.  The crosses are better movers and some would say sounder.  But I still insist that a sane, athletic and good moving TB will out perform a good warmblood most days!  

I have worked with, retrained and re-homed OTTBs for a few decades now. And I have found that some of the sire lines lend themselves more to certain types of riding than others. For instance, Northern Dancer has several good lines going but the two outstanding lines for jumpers are Nijinsky and Nureyev. Bold Ruler is another great jumper line, good event horses too from the Seattle Slew and Secretariat branches. If you can ride well, then line-bred to Nasrullah is good, with a mix of Raise A Native and Ribot for spice. But you must be an experienced rider to get a horse of that breeding to a high level. Of course, there are other jumper lines not famous for a bad temperament. :D

A good rule of thumb is if the sire ran on, and throws horses who can run on turf, then it's probably a good jumper line. The physical configuration needed for jumping seems to be the same one that enables a horse to do well on turf. I have noticed that the OTTBs who make good jumpers move "rounder" than the usual daisy-clipping hunter movement. The same holds true for turf horses, they tend to move "rounder" than dirt horses.

What makes Thoroughbreds such great sport horses is the built-in, or bred-in, work ethic, and the get-up-and-go response time. I have ridden Warmbloods, good ones, and compared to my Thoroughbreds, I felt as if I should "get off and push". And that is not to say that Thoroughbreds are all "hot", once you get them let down and fat(relatively) and happy in their new life, they can be as lazy as the next horse. But when you do ask them for something, the response is faster and more interested. That is much nicer to ride than "get off and push". I have had friends who wanted to get Warmbloods with "some Thoroughbred mixed in for athleticism." Yes, they actually said that. Seriously. I tell them, get a Thoroughbred, get the entire experience of a great athlete, runner or not, instead of just a taste occasionally. I can't tell you how many of those people I have dragged to the track to see Thoroughbreds for sale to off-track homes. Most of them got one instead of the expensive Warmblood. The most given reason?? "They are just so much friendlier and prettier." And for less money too.

These horses went on to do a huge variety of disciplines, some became pleasure horses, trail horses, therapy horses, pony club and 4H horses, endurance horses, you name it, they did it. The ones without any physical issues went on to eventing and showing over fences. A couple of them went fox-hunting and did some point-to-point racing.

And finally, the best thing about OTTBs is that even if they weren't the greatest race horse on the track, they are related to lots of famous horses and therefore come with built-in brag rights. Sometimes, that's the best part of owning an OTTB. LOL

I have to echo Jill & equus's sentiments in regards to the Cox's Ridge line.  Although I don't know much about pedigrees in relation to the hunter world (even though I rode hunters for awhile before college) I bought a mare a couple years ago whose BM sire is Cox's Ridge.  When I mentioned his name I had a lot of people go "oh nice jumping lines right there" or something like that.  I think equus also mentioned Ribot & Damascus, which were also lines within my mare's pedigree that more knowledgeable hunter/jumper ppl also liked.

I'm into Appaloosa sporthorses primarily.  My mare was bred by halter breeders.  But since her dam was half TB she was too light.  Her broodmare sire is Once A Dancer, half brother to John Henry.  He’s a son of Czaravick.  

Out of boredom recently I started looking at TBs in Appy race bloodlines.  I noticed Top Deck seems to pop into race horses in AQHA and ApHC bloodlines.  Mr. Spotted Bull a noted App stud was by a TB stallion who traced to Bull Dog.  Interesting how some of the sire-lines that are forgotten by TB breeders are still alive in the stock or WB breeders.

My gelding was a grandson of Caro.  He was fabulous in jumpers and dressage.  He was always sound, had a great temperament and was a beautiful mover.  

Some TB stallions that have produced better sporthorses than race horses are Viscount.  He’s a Double Jay great-grand son.  Who was a champion hunter and then has produced a lot of winners on the line and over fences.  

Sea Accounts a beautiful Sea Hero son, has made his impression by being an approved stallion with the RPSI.  www.DeBracySportHorses.com  Coconut Grove (http://www.octoberhill.com/) is a TB stallion who is approved in just about every main stallion book in Europe.

Appy breeders who breed for the ApHC circuit tend to breed big TB mares, to try and get bigger babies.  Sometimes they get real pretty horses and big movers.  But I’ve known a World Champion Hunter under Saddle horse that moved like a short strided pony.  Really the whole package needs to be looked at with any horse.  Sure pedigree is great, but if the horse looks like a gnome and moves like one, I wouldn’t want it in my breeding pool.

Need to comment on the Mahubah's Corner article on McDynamo.  

Damascus is well loved as a jumping horse producer in sport horse world. His most famous progeny was a GP jumper named Napur, and his son Zen has sired many show jumpers.  There are quite a few other Damascus line descendant who jump, including the stallion Coconut Ridge, whose dam sire is Propellant, a Damascus son.

After reading the Mahubah's Corner story on McDynamo, I felt the need to add something.

Damascus is well loved in Sport Horse land.  His son Napur was a Grand Prix jumper, and there are quite a few show jumpers from others of his sons, like Zen.  Coconut Grove, the TB stallion, was a GP jumper whose dam sire was Propellant by Damascus.

In addition, not only has Dynaformer sired chasers, but so have several other Roberto sons here and over the pond.  There's a sire in Ireland named Bob Back who stands almost exclusively to NH mares and has had a good bit of success.  

To add to what I said about the Dollar line, Elf was the sire of Bonne Cause, matriarch of the Twist lines of Grand Prix Jumpers.  The best of them are inbred to her through her son Bon Nuit and her Daughter Brave Bonnie.  

Correction--it's Bonne Nuit, not Bon Nuit.

Caro, especially through Cozzene is very popular in hunters.  They are generally attractive "typy" and well mannered.

Waquoit is a stallin that has developed a following in sport circles.  His offspring are big and hearty and can be less than easy to train but once they decide they like something they are great.

Going back a few generations it's all but impossible to find a TB without Nasrullah, Bold Ruler but that sire line could really jump.  Secretariat still has sons siring sport horses.  

Re: Cox's Ridge

His sire Best Turn is also the sire of the off the track dressage horse and Grand Prix Jumper Hand In Glove.  Hand In Glove was exported to France and used exclusively in sport horse breeding.  Best Turn is also found very frequently in eventing horses.  Also found in the Cox's Ridge pedigree is a stallion named Carrier Pigeon who sired event horses and jumpers in the 1950s. And of course Turn-To is out of one of those Lavendula daughters who have been so good in sport horse land.  And he's got Man O'War, who along with Nasrullah and Princequillo, has always been a very prolific sire line for sport horses.  

The mare, Rose Leaves, is the dam of the sire of Cormac, winner of the Maryland Hunt Cup, as well as the GP jumper sire, Negofol, and Bull Lea, who crosses her jump genes with Teddy's.

Another correction--I need to check this stuff before typing.  

Rose Leaves was the dam of Espino by Negofol.  Espino sired GP jumpers as did some of his get.

I would second a lot of comments above re: Nijinsky, Nureyev, Caro, Roberto, Alydar, Bold Ruler, etc.  I would add The Minstrel.  However, my husband and I have between us made up several off the track horses into Grand Prix show jumpers and frankly, it's the individual that's in front of you. It's hard enough to find the one you want, so you have to look at a lot of horses and then look at the pedigree if you think you might be interested.

Almost any athletic thoroughbred that I like will have interesting blood, especially if you go back a to the grandsire/second dam level or further back.  In terms of the individual, I usually tell people I need an "uphill, old-fashioned turf-type, as they seem to understand that.  But soundness is not the same to race trainers, even really good ones, as to show jumpers, and for good reason.  I have to put 3-6 years into a horse to take it from the track to the Grand Prix level (5 seems about average), which generally means the horse is a minimum of 8 or 9 when he gets to that level.  To make it make sense, you then hope to be able to compete the horse at that level for more than three years.  So we need a horse to have hard and soft tissues that will be able to take jumping over and landing off a 5+ foot jump and then turning at speed as a teenager.  Truly 'sound' racing 3 year olds may not be good candidates based on that.  Certainly, the ones that had bows or suspensories are out, even if, as one that was shown to me did, 'he set a track record at Arlington after he bowed'.  

I don't want to ramble on too much, but given that so many of these incredible horses ultimately go to slaughter, longer term soundness should be a goal in breeding, but I understand the financial reasons why it's really not.  However, I love that certain sires are now advertised with language that highlights durability.

One other thing worth keeping in mind here in America, is that whenever an American buys a show jumper in Europe, that money leaves our system for good.  They do not buy show jumpers from us, although they do buy TB breeding stock (usually pretty cheaply) to improve their stock.

I have a smart, marketing-oriented friend that is trying to get something going with the TB industry to help bring TBs back to the highest levels of competition in the US in the jumper and hunter worlds and I think the group commenting here might have some great ideas.  I wouldn't know how to do this, but if anyone wanted to set up some kind of discussion group of people that support the TBs as high level sport horses I would be very interested and think it might help generate more ideas for this project, if it gets off the ground.

Ana,

Ever heard of First Secretary? If you're interested in the presence of TBs in Appaloosa bloodlines, you might want to look him up.

He was Secretariat's first foal, and an Appaloosa:

"First Secretary"

barnlot.tripod.com/firstsecretarynarr.html

"First Secretary"

"A Maryland Stallion of Distinction"

74.125.93.132/search

I realize that is is hijacking the central theme of this discussion but I was tipped off to this blog by my friend Grand Prix Show Jumper.  

I've been trying to get some momentum for starting a fund that would pay prize money to TB owners for the high point TBs at shows.  As I walk through shows at KHP and Wellington, I see thousands of european show horses who used to be almost exclusively TBs.  The goal would be to get more TBs back into the ring and find homes for more horses. This would also increase the value of these OTTBs. The fund that I envision would pay prize money to TBs at higher showing levels, sponsor vetting clinics to prescreen horses for potential owners, fund a discount of stalling fees at shows for TBs and add bonus money to any prize money for college bound juniors in the form of tuition.

Any comments or ideas would be appreciated.  

We breed sport TBs on purpose...so they are not "by-products of not being a good racehorse" here. For older bloodlines my favorites are Hail To Reason (particularly Hail The Pirates), many of the Bold Ruler lines (plenty of bone and scope though tend to have hotter/less amateur friendly temperments....so depends on your market there), Mahmoud, Indian Hemp lines, Buckpasser (esp. Silver Buck) and To Market. For more current lines: the best jumpers hail from Alydar. Pleasant Colony is also a favorite: big, solid good minded horses. On the whole some of the top race stallions top my list of horses I avoid: Storm Cat, Mr.Prospector, Unbridled's Song and Halo. They each have different issues undesireable to sporthorses that they tend to pass on. The problem with Mr. P is the same one that plagues his race offspring: front leg correctness and soundness issues......though as we get  more generations out it gets better. From that family the problem is the Raise A Native....the thing is RAN (see Alydar) throws a super jump too....so my caveat to the RANs is I like to see it once but NOT linebred in a pedigree.

PS..on the Dynaformer in the original post. He does throw talent....but often with a pretty difficult temperment......so for that reason he is actually one I do not seek as a sporthorse prospect.

Other points that come to mind...Hoist The Flag: super jump but often with a less than sweet temperment. There are isolated exceptions to my No Mr. P rule though...Innkeeper is as sound and solid/well tempered as they come and I have been around some fab Not For Love offpspring that look great and has super minds on them.

Cox's Ridge (have 2/know more): super all around athletes but often tend to be very hot....best suited to jumpers or eventers but not hunters where nice n easy are the order of the day.

Greyhorse, there is an organization for sport horse Jockey Club registered thoroughbreds.  I forget the name off the top of my head, but it's trying to do some of the things that you have mentioned.  I personally would love to have such an award for eventing TBs, because there are more of them than in the other disciplines.

When you ask Europeans about the sire lines in TBs that they find most appealing (other than the Lady Killers, Cottage Sons, etc,) there are three sire names that always come up--Ribot, Prince Rose and his sons, and Grey Sovereign.

Da3hoss noted a horse named Stage Door Johnny as part of Courageous Comet's pedigree. SDJ is the broodmare sire of Go For Gin (Kentucky Derby winner) whom I've seen as the sire of several jumpers.

I did some pedigree consultation for the Saratoga yearling sales last year. One colt's pedigree in particular caught my eye as a possible steeplechase candidate. He was by Royal Academy out of a Blushing Groom mare. I think the Royal Academy, Blushing Groom and Woodman offspring would be particulary good at steeplechasing.

Couple of more lines that are either dead or almost dead--the Commando line with Peter Pan, Black Toney and Balladier.  We look for Spy Song and Crimson Satan.  

I know of a sporthorse TB breeder who stands a stallion who is sireline to Jet Pilot/Blandford.  Talk about an old line that has always be famous for passing on jumping talent.  Her stallion may be the only line direct line to Blandford left in the United States.

Wanted to add another comment.

The best classic racehorses and racehorse sires often make the best sport horse sires as well because their get are so athletic.  I know that the French are beginning to incorporate some Mr. P. into their steeplechasing lines.  Unfortunately, I can't remember off the top of my head which of his sons are being used through their daughters.

Straight Gin, a son of Go For Gin, is being chased now.  The chasing people say that chasing would be a good second career for a lot of Flat racehorses if their connections would consider it.  Maybe not NSA chasing, but other forms of jumps racing like Point to Points and Hunter Paces, all of which are fairly common in the Mid Atlantic states.

Northern Dancer seems to be the pre-eminent European chasing line at the present time.

One very special mare is High Bid.  By To Market out of Stepping Stone. Dam of Bold Bidder, Independence (chaser) and Top Bid (champion chaser).  

Marguerite was the dam of Gallant Fox, Fighting Fox, both by Sir Gallahad, and Petee-Wrack by Wrack.  Petee-Wrack was the sire of two Maryland Hunt Cup winners, and that's a 4 mile race over timber fences that are more than 4'.

One super sport horse stallion was Mokheiba, who sired eventers and chasers and hunter/jumpers.  He's got multiple Dollar lines.

I also very much like to see a mix on the first pedigree page of all three of the foundation sires--Herod, Matchem, and Eclipse.  It's getting harder and harder to find Herod and Matchem reasonably close.  Which is another reason why imports are so important.  

We breed sport TBs on purpose...so they are not "by-products of not being a good racehorse" here.

I wanted to clarify this since there is no edit button! My broodmares HAVE all be ex racers, most with show careers after that/come not....but only one of them had a good race record. I was more trying to say that there is not much correlation between being a good racehorse and a good sporthorse. A point that was made by a couple earlier posters is correct: sporthorse breeders are not so interested in your 6F sprinter for "type" and do tend to look for your turf type pedigree...in a time when a lot of TBs are bred to be the 6F dirt sprinter it is getting harder to find your old turf type pedigrees OTT.

Some current hunter riders like Deputy Minister get a lot.  

I like to see Sea Bird.  And Herbager and his son, Big Spruce.  All lines that are/were big in chasing overseas and also in sport horses.

A Ribot line stallion who is getting on in years but has produced chasers and high quality event horses is Roanoke.  Again pedigree and performance that are not good for 6f sprints.  

Part of what is happening today is that the majority of races at small tracks are dirt sprints, and the horses with routing pedigrees are being run at the wrong distance, failing, and leaving the TB breeding pool.  

postergeist ,

I totally forgot about First Secretary.  I haven't come across any of his get or grand-get knowingly.  

I own a very well bred thoroughbred stallion that has stood for a few years as a racehorse sire. It has been my desire to transfer him to one whom would use him exclusively as a sport horse stallion. While he has done well at stud siring racehorses, I have grown weary of that business, and particularly of the wastage; I have also long felt that he was a rather ideal candidate for sport horses-he is a very athletic, beautiful moving, 17.1 h. well-boned and correct, leggy, rather elegant dark bay, very much the Buckpasser-type in appearance. He was a gifted runner, but later developing type who preferred a route of ground. But it was not those attributes which most fostered this idea. Rather it is his disposition and that of his offspring; they, like their sire are extremely intelligent and consistently very well dispositioned-evident almost from birth, and rather remarkable. It seemed to me a pity that they were channeled into the racetrack world. I can well remember Hand In Glove (Davona Dale's full-brother) as I was a frequent visitor to Calumet during those days. I watched him grow up and saw him train. Lovely, tall solid dark bay, who much resembled my stallion. After his racing days he became a highly successful show jumper, and then a show jumper stallion. Herein lies the difference-he first competed successully as a jumper before assigned to stud duty in that discipline. I have encountered difficulty finding a suitable person/situation to take over my stallion. Most seem to prefer warmbloods, and others prefer a thoroughbred stallion who had competed as a "sport horse". Rather short-sighted from my perspective, because it doesn't appear (especially after reading some of the posts on this blog) that sport horse breeders have much of a handle, or consensus, on what makes a potentially elite sport horse stallion, with regard physical attributes or pedigree. I am left to conclude that thoroughbred sport horses become accomplished sport horses (by design at breeding, or othewise) essentially by "accident".          

Sorry, made an error re-Hand In Glove's pedigree. He wasn't Davona Dale's full-brother, as he was out of Miss Betty (Buckpasser-In The Clouds). Should have remembered, since I made several attempts at puchasing Miss Betty from Calumet, but finally did acquire one of her daughters (from them)-Samantha Starlight (Raise A Cup-Miss Betty).

I think the "by accident" route should be viewed to have a lot of positives (unless you are trying to stand a stallion, apologies to sceptre).  "By accident" means a lot of horses that are finished their careers at the track might have hope of getting another job.  At the end of the day, it's having a job that is a horses best protection from potentially bad ends.

That's a good thing but there's also the business angle.  Different people have different models but personally, I would rather not breed my own and have to deal with all the risks of breeding and raising horses until the time I would start them in training as a show jumper.  I have lots of friends that have beautifully bred warmblood pasture ornaments that came out with significant conformational issues or just a general lack of athletic ability.  I think there's a great advantage to finding a horse that's sound after some training or racing, that carries himself well, that you can sometimes even try under saddle, who's 3, 4 or 5, AND in the off the track thoroughbred price range.  That beats the breed your own angle and the "go to Europe to buy a 4 year old" angle handily if you are really running the numbers and can really ride and train.  

Speaking purely as a spectator as I am not involved in sport horses in any discipline, the first time I saw a video of Mr. Hot Stuff trotting onto the track for a work-out, I thought that horse just screamed for a dressage ring as he was absolutely floating.  It will be interesting to see if any Tiznows ever show up in dressage or show jumping.

Dear Grand Prix Show Jumper,

Not what I wanted to hear, but must agree with your ethics and logic.

txhorse fan--couldn't agree more! I also wonder about Zanjero--wouldn't he be a lovely sight going up a centerline to X?

In general, as has been stated before, the sprinting, short running Thoroughbred lines are not what sport breeders want.  There are, of course, exceptions to every rule but the downhill build and sometimes bulk doesn't cut it, IMHO.  It's more than the top line when considering the build, stifles higher than elbows, for example. (And I am indebted to someone on another blog for pointing that out)

In years past, there was a lot of Man O' War and Fair Play breeding in jumpers of almost any kind.  In terms of versatility, the line seemed to have it all.

The Germans made a lot of use of the Hampton lines through Dark Ronald.  Son-in-law from that line to Herbager.

Hyperion (Hampton again) through Alibhai.

What I see in most of these horses, depending on the photo angle, of course, are horses that are uphill or very close with low set knees and hocks, for the most part.  I would love to have someone expound on that.

The Lucky Debonaire line seems to be producing terrific sport horses for Open Jumping competition.

I am a polo horse breeder from Argentina.

Here some of the most succesful sires in th last decades were descendants of the Halo male line, mostly by his son Southern Halo.

The Buckpasser line was also very succesful (sons of Logical, and Egg Toss were very good polo sires).

Other important male lines: Ambiorix, In Reality

Nowadays, top sires are grandsons of Mr Prospector (Lode), Irish River (River Slaney), Rainbow Quest (Rainbow Corner), Deputy Minister (Salt Lake).

One correction:Gem Twist was a grand prix jumper, not an event horse.

Why wouldn't Bold Ruler line produce jumpers? Independence was his full brother, not as listed previously.Wead a good eventer by Indy and another by his son out of a SW Cyane mare who produced flat stakes horses too..

We have two foals by Northern Spur (Sadlers Wells) who LOOKs like a sport horse, will see how his kids do. One is out of Seattle Slew line mare, the other Gone West - Secretariat, Bold Ruler again.

i am looking for some photos of KEY TO THE MINT

I have first hand experience--I own a daughter of Napur (Damascus) and she is very athletic--I free-jumped her the first time at about 4 feet. Napur was a beautiful kind chestnut Hap Hanson and Will Simpson both rode. I wish I had had a chance to meet him.