I LOVE this horse.  He better get a good home.

Dennis Craig, in his 1964 book, Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares, makes a very good case for the proposition that lesser performing relatives of great performers are extremely good bets for stud service.  In fact, he strongly argues that a race breeder can save money and still get high quality by doing just that.

Baronial has wonderful uphill conformation and would probably make a good sport horse stallion.

I, too, will be watching to see where he ends up.

I'd love to see Michael Blowen of Old Friends get this horse.  Who knows where he will end up.

Im a huge Phipps Stable fan, and they seem to have been running their colts as they get older(Parading,Dancing Forever,etc.)in recent years. If Baronial is retiring sound, why wouldnt Shug and Phipps continue to run Baronial as a 4yo,5yo. He seems to have run some good races and won on the grass at Saratoga last year. He could do well just like Parading and Dancing Forever.

There are enough stallions standing stud that should not be standing at stud. I don't care who his mother is, with that race record, he will make someone a nice gelding. If the sport horse people want him, I say take the money and run. If you want to breed a race horse there are better proven studs out there.

The only knock against this horse is that he is out of Personal Ensign.  She has thrown quality race horses, but her sons are dinks as sires.  Her best offsrping to date was by Easy Goer.  I know Our Emblem sired War Emblem, but what else has he done.  Siring 20 or 25 stakes winners at this point in his career means nothing when you talk about the quality of mares he got.  Same thing for Miners Mark.  He was a Grade 1 winner.  Don't think for a second that he did not get his fair shot with the Phipps owning him.  Personal Ensign will go down as the Matriarch of a female line that lived on, but not through her sons.  This colt has one other strike against him.  Kingmambo has not set the world on fire as a sire of sires either.  I know Lemon Drop Kid has done well, but no other son is filling his shoes so to speak.  If I bred to Kingmambo, I would hope for a filly. What may be the saving grace for this horse is that he may infact turn out to be a decent broodmare sire.  For my money, I would not send my best mares to him until he proved he has the goods.  And for him at his fee with his racing record, it is not just an uphill climb, but up Mount Everest climb.  Best of luck to his new owners.

His pedigree is like no other.  He has a great conformation.  Lets remember Saint Ballado who was no where near the racehorse Devils Bag was, but became the better sire.

War Emblem has been performing above expectations for all his hectic antics in the past few years, so maybe Baronial could try and match it in a regional market.

Man I hope he gets a good home too. I saw him at Saratoga last year, in the paddock area, I said, Barional....run like your mom!  Well he came in 5th that day.  He does have wonderful confirmation.  I had only hoped being the last of PE's he would be a phenomenal race horse.   Well, hopefully he will be a great sire, and carry on the line.  

Where is the ad posted??

• Scot's reply:  It is on the Starquine Thoroughbred sales site.  Click here to see it.

Yet another example of a horse being bred that SHOULDN'T be bred.  This horse has no business being a stallion.  As you mentioned, his half brothers who were decent racehorses only had marginal success, and they were given every chance to succeed.  I'm so sick of seeing this.  Does the idiot who owns him not realize there is an overpopulation problem going on????  Anything to make a dollar...so god help the unwanted, uncommercial offspring this horse may sire....hopefully not, but some "dreamer" will give it shot. And you should be ashamed to even imply there is a realistic chance this  horse could be successful!! I hope you'll be at the ring to bid when nobody else is, except the killers.    

He doesn't have "wonderful conformation". His neck is very unattractive and his head is common. Go look at a picture of Lemon Drop Kid if you want to see wonderful conformation.  

oh and please tell me thats not a purple nylon halter on him!  I'm hoping I'm mistaken.

Just so everyone knows, he was sold by the Phipps last year and has been making his last couple starts at Mountaineer where he couldn't win.  I think the current owner was hoping they could get some wins into him at a lower track and maybe some black type, but it didn't work out.

@LCM

He's not being bred, at least not yet.  If one was to read Scot's post it was about _whether_ he should become a breeding animal.  Yes, someone is selling him on that basis, but we'll see whether or not it comes off.

________________________

Why oh why do we suffer this unending litany of unreflective, almost identical responses?  Restraint among breeders in order to limit horse populations is important.  I'm very glad people are concerned about it, but those who comment here seem to be the one-issue voters of the world.  Is there ever a contribution to the Bloodhorse blogs that doesn't eventually end up with someone dredging up the slaughter issue?

I was just thinking about him yesterday.  I wish I could afford to buy him!!! Just turn him into a sport horse and to have an offspring of the great Personal Ensign would be an honor.  He had better go to a good home....

One thing I have never understood is my the Phipps do not stand stallions at Claiborne?  Yes, they had Easy Goer and Seeking the Gold and back in the Wheatley days all the good Bold Rulers were retired to Claiborne as stallions (Bold Lad, Successor, etc...) but not even the Grade 1 winning Miner's Mark.  Anyway, it is too bad the Phipps can't retire their horses such as Baronial to a life of leisure seeing that he is a son of a legend!!!!

He does not have the length of hindquarter nor enough angle going into the hock. This would cause him to lack suspension.

Will he jump? Suitable for dressage? Hope he gets a life.

Not too high on this one's ability to make a decent sire, but for reasons generally different from those posted. Baronial demonstated less racing ability, is by a weaker sire, and has (to my eye) looks inferior to Personal Ensign's others who went to stud. I do feel that Personal Ensign's sons have made a decent showing at stud. Aside from Miner's Mark (more of a distance-type, and had major fertility issues), the others have sired at least on a par with their demonstrated racing abilities. Traditionally is the best of the lot, and was a lovely colt with ability greater than his r/r may reflect. He is a credit to the breed and has exceeded the opportunity afforded him. The overly tall Proud And True has also exceeded reasonable expectations. Our Emblem is far from a failure, but I did expect somewhat more from him-he was the quickest of the bunch, and had good racing ability...Many who share on this blog appear to have little perspective on the stallion game. Only the most successful stallions are deemed as "successes", and far too many are viewed incorrectly as failures-caused mostly by inadequate perspective and unskilled perception. Most of you are too quick to judge-offer your opinions far too freely. Unfortunately, often this leads to a self-fulfilling prophesy in the breeding game.        

I'd be more concerned about his poor conformation than his poor race record.  He is almost ewe-necked, too upright in the shoulder, and long and over-angulated in the front pasterns. He also appears to be almost calf-kneed. His rear is small and weak and his hind cannons are WAY too long - often an indication of hind end weakness.  This horse is not a sporthorse stallion prospect.  He does not have the build to produce good dressage horses or jumpers.

There have certainly been cases where undistinguished runners from otherwise distinguished families have turned into excellent producers.  Usually, though, they were well bred AND well made.  They just weren't runners.  Again, though, his conformational weaknesses, if passed to his offspring, are not going to be conducive to success on the racetrack.  I think his poor race record, combined with poor conformation, make him not a good risk as a stallion prospect.

Lordcat, I do see your point but the Phipps no longer own Baronial.  He was sold to someone (I have it somewhere, and I cannot remember right now) and raced a few at Mountaineer.  I don't know what he is going to end up doing, but I do agree he deserves another job if he is suitable for anything and then to live out his days in leisure.  Don't they all!

I love PE and her progeny and am very interested to see what transpires with Baronial.  

What would be more helpful to the US breeding program would be a horse like Yeats rather than Baronial. Baronial is best suited to be someone's riding horse.

I would have to see the horse in person to decide more about his conformation.  Certainly, in this photo, he does not look too great (to put it mildly).  However, the photo is not really good and appears to have been rather quickly done.  He looks to have a pretty good length of hip and his shoulder is long even if it is not as well sloped as it could be.  The looooooong back cannons would be a concern for anything other than flat work.  It is the neck that I would like to see in person.  I have seen too many horses that appear ewe necked when excited but actually have a really pretty neck when they work.  That said, i do agree with most that he should be gelded and used as a pleasure horse or a companion horse and that kills me because I love Personal Ensign dearly.  I hope that some softy that can afford too will buy him and give him a forever home!

SO many of the bloggers here talk about gelding this horse. Ya right! Come on people hes a son of KINGMAMBO and PERSONAL ENSIN hes not gonna be gelded. Glad you were'nt in charge of Danzigs stallion career he wouldve been gelded to! Never won a race! And sorry, no one can look at one bad photo and evaluate this horses confirmation. If you think you can your part of the problem everyone wanting to just look at pedigree and they have no idea how a horses sappose to look. Hes pulling back and his head is two feet higher then it normally is, you think you can judge his head and shoulder and neck set from this photo your crazy.

I agree with whoapony although it's hard to tell with the bad picture he doesn't look very attractive. Is he really camped out bad behind? Just because he's royally bred doesn't mean he's a stallion prospect.

A sound 4 year old retired to Old Friends?  Absurd.  Save the space there for horses whose productive careers are over.

The photo of this colt does him no favor.  His neck likely isn't as unattractive as made to look here.  Sure the muscling is more on the bottom, but that's often the case in Thoroughbreds who aren't trained to use their top-line muscling.

He could be a useful sport horse, and I'd give him that opportunity before retiring him to $1000 stud fee anonymity.  

Sure, a few lesser siblings surpass at stud their more accomplished kin, but most don't.

There's a Mr Prospector x Ladys Secret (HOY by Secretariat) stallion at stud here in Texas.  He ran about as well as this colt, and has produced nothing of note.

Gelding him, while not my first choice, should be considered if it allows him a good home.

To Sceptre:  I agree with you that a few people post things on the blog and they probably don't know what they are talking about.  I do know though.  Having been at this game for over 23 years, I know a good horse when I see one.  I also know that the Offspring of Personal Ensign on the male side are NOT living up to "reasonable" expectations.  When a stallion use dto bred 40 mares a year long ago, they were expected to produce at least 5 stakes winners a year.  Thats a 13% clip.  The avergae to above average stallions did so.  Our Emblem and Miners Mark did NOT do this and they bred over 100 mares.  Miners Mark had a few decent winners, but based on what he got his first 3 years at stud, he is a failure.  Our Emblem has done a little better, but standing at Claiborne, he got good mares and he has not produced enough to warrent being considered anything but a below average sire.  Traditionally has done better, but in he will never be anything more than his older brothers.  If he was, being by Mr.P would afford him a one way ticket to KY.  I don't see that happening.  The Phipps don't stand a single son of Personal Ensign for a reason.  They only kept her daughters and granddaughters.  These blogs are for people to put their opinions in words for others to read.  It is unfortunate when some people don't know much about horses or the industry and try to make it look like they do.  This colt has a very large hill to climb to even make the below average rankings.  His sire is one of the top 5 in the world based on stud fee.  But the old saying still applies...."When they can't run, they can't read their Pedigree's".  I enjoyed your opinion and thoughts.  Very insightful.

Of course his breeding is exceptional and his confirmation is good though he did not do much on the track I think I would take a chance with him. It is true that lesser siblings have proven to be better producers and Our Emblem's son War Emblem though having a shakey start at stud with his not having much interest in the mares what he has produced is winning. And truthfully if I were still raising racing Appaloosas I would consider him highly for breeding so perhaps the Quarterhorse or Appaloosa industries may want to take a look at him.

In response to Dynaformer Lives, Danzig won all three of his races (no blacktype though).  I'm no expert on equine conformation, but that picture makes Baronial look unappealing.  I agree with both sides of the debate.

Yes, successful sires have come with less than stellar racing resumes and the great runners do not always sire the best offspring either. PE is one of those all-time wonders of racing and her babies do hold strong sentiments to racing fans because of her.

But the bottom line is this...

If the horse is not going to contribute something positive (soundness, racing ability, etc.) then it should not be allowed to breed, period.  

Like any horse, I hope Baronial goes to a safe and loving home.

Maybe the Kentucky Horse Park could get him to put in their breeds barn. He could not go in the Hall of Champions with Funny Cide, etc, as he did not have the race record.

Old Friends, even though he is so young, would be a good idea. He is a son of two champions, and deserves some respect in his retirement.

True, maybe he should not be bred. But then The Green Monkey is standing for %5000 in Florida, and he accomplished nothing and does not have anywhere near the pedigree Baronial possesses. He might do for  one of the better state breeding programs--I think he would be great for Maryland, Pennsylvania, or New York.  

To Robert:

I really hate to have to say this, but you must be included with those who know little what they're talking about. So, you've "...been at this game or 23 years" ??-That's a bit scary, but confirms my fear that no one, but for the ultra wealthy (who can buy enough mares to fill a book) should attempt to stand a (racehorse) stallion unless that stallion very overtly clicks all the boxes. Too few have enough insight to see anything beyond the obvious. I'm not at all suggesting that Baronial is a proper stallion candidate, but others are, and less appreciated than should be...So, would you like some examples of why I included you in that category? Here's a few: Your initial post's first comment: "The ONLY knock against this horse is that he is out of Personal Ensign". Really? Are you suggesting that but for this he's a fine stud prospect?..."Her best offspring to date was Easy Goer"-Personal Ensign is not the dam of Easy Goer. Also, the issue isn't whether anyone should send their best mares to him (Baronial), but rather if they should send any mares to him at all... Your 2nd post:  Today,most stallions deemed to be successful, and many deemed elite, do not sire anything near 13% stakes winners. In days gone by those groups did sire a higher % of sw's, but still relatively few of them were able to go beyond a 10% rate...Our Emblem did not stand at Claiborne throughout his entire US stud career...Traditionally is doing just fine at stud, but as he stood in Europe from the get go, and has thus been successful siring turf runners, it's somewhat unlikely that he will be repatriated (no, doing well there doesn't grant him a one-way ticket back to KY). There's much more, but why go on...On your last post-note your remarks which begin at the 7th line from the bottom ("... It is unfortunate...make it look like they do..."). Not trying to be hurtful, but you have described well my opinion of your comments.                          

here are links to different pics of Baronial.  No conformation shots but at least different views.  

finalturngallery.com/.../baronial1.jpg.html

www.flickr.com/.../2527258600

Thank you personalensign79 for the additional photos. You're correct, not great pictures, but it illustrates a valid point: Like all creatures, Baronial appears to be more refined and far less coarse when he's fit and healthy. The photo in the sale add is pathetic. He appears to be unfit, coarse, poorly posed, poorly groomed, poorly attired, etc. How the owners expect to fetch any kind of price for him with this amature presentation is astounding.

I'm certainly not suggesting that he'd set the world on fire as a stallion, but the additional photos revealed a bit more class.

Here's more photos winning his maiden...wish I could buy him...why they used that poorly angled shot...

www.flickr.com/.../2714714907

www.flickr.com/.../2715529402

Here he is walking in paddock area

finalturngallery.com/.../08_Baronial_dk1633.jpg.html

finalturngallery.com/.../08_Baronial_dk8589.jpg.html

This "sales" shot stinks...what a disservice to a nice horse..

seb, I tried to find the unending litany of anti-slaughter posts on the blog, but couldn't find one...but since you brought up the slaughter issue, I'll happily respond as to why we always bring up the responsible breeder...;-)

Have you ever been to a kill pen? or an auction where the majority of horses going to the killers are healthy, young purebreds, or seen the scared aged, senior horses that are "sadly outgrown" or, worse, the maimed products of horrific neglect and abuse?

I naively went once...it changed my perspective forever...I saw a bone-thin mare with an udder that hung almost to the ground...I saw terrible sights and the fear was palpable...

PS do you know how horses are trailered, penned and the method used to kill a horse?

That's why people like the Zito's, bloggers here and me "always dredge up" breeder/owner/industry responsibilty to the slaughter issue. We don't want the "Baronials" of the world to end up there, even Secretariat's brother ended up in a kill pen in the USA.

Thanks for giving me the opprtunity to respond to your inquiry.

Representing the current owner i can assure everyone that the current owner and the original owner of Baronial have implemented measures to ensure the safety and wellbeing of Baronial as a racehorse and as a stallion prospect. Further measures have been taken to secure his status as a retired stallion successful or not. Baronial was advertised on the website only to investigate stallion opportunities. Where Baronial goes as a stallion will be based on opportunity for success while never compromising a high standard of care custody and control. There is obviously brilliance in his pedigree and it is our hope that his career as a stallion will allow that brilliance to pass through to his progeny. There is great appreciation for the passion of many of the contributors and their concern for Baronial's future, but the current and past ownership of this stallion have gauranteed his safety and care during his racing career, stallion career, and retirement.

I would like to point out that Our Emblem DID STAND at Claiborne Farm for five seasons before he was sold for an astronomical amount after his son War Emblem won the Kentucky Derby.  I had previously decried the Phipps for not standing their stallions at Claiborne when they were retired.  The good runner Good Reward is another example.

To Lordcat:

Our Emblem was originally retired to Claiborne, and stood there for several years before being relocated/sold to Murmur Farm in MD. A bit later War Emblem did his thing, so Murmur (and that syndicate) then sold him back to KY (to Taylor Made, etc.) for a huge profit (as I recall, Murmur got the horse for low six figures, then sold him for something like $12M)...In recent years some of the Phipps better stallion prospects have been retired to Lanes End (new family ties between these two families). Their lesser-lights stallion prospects would have never fit a Claiborne (or a Lanes End), and have been retired elsewhere.

My first thought about this horse is to ask why the Phipps family doesn't just retire this horse to a life of luxury? After all, he is out of their great mare PERSONAL ENSIGN, a horse I'm sure they "love." The world of horse racing is full of multi-millionaires and billionaires who "can't afford" to retire their horses. Maybe they don't have enough money to pay for BARONIAL's retirement.

If this horse has to go to stud I would send him to an up and coming foreign market, like Korea, China, Russia, etc., where a horse with a nice pedigree might be a welcome addition to the gene pool. He's a decent looking horse, and the pedigree is very good.

Thank you to StallionCo for your input on Baronial.  Everyone of us as horse lovers and many of us being thoroughbred lovers do like to see owners and breeders being responsible for the well being of the horses that they bred.  It is also comforting to me to know just how many people in the positions of knowing things actually read these blogs and respond to the general public.

To Sceptre.....Read my first post again.  I said her best offspring is BY Easy Goer.  You are correct in that most stallions don't sire 13%.  I was trying to point out that NO SON OF P.E. is a sire especially given the chances they were given.  If someone wants to take a chance with their money with Baronial.....best of luck.  DOn't worry about hurting my feelings, I have been at this to long to take this personal.  You may think I don't know the industry, and that is your opinion.  And why is my 23 years at this business scary??  I must be doing something right if I am still at it.  How many others are bankrupt after 6 or 7 years?? Facts say I am successful.  Sorry for tooting my horn there.  As for saying that Baronial would be good stallion prospect except that he is a P.E. son, if I did not type it, don't infer it.  What I said was P.E.'s sons are DINK's as sires and they are.  Traditionally is considered below average....even in Europe.  You are correct on one thing though, many of today's stallions don't sire 10% and are considered above average.  I DON'T CONSIDER THEM ABOVE AVERAGE.  I consider them successfully marketed by the farm/owner.  I am brutal on the stallions I breed to or even consider.  ****As I type this, With Flying Colors just won at Belmont over Cocoa Beach.  She is a daughter of My Flag....P.E.'s Easy Goer offspring.  Finally, I can respect your opinions.  You seem passionate about this business.  Stand firm to your views.  Makes this game more fun.  Thanks for responding to my posts.  

Many of the posters here claim that Baronial is deserving of a "better life" (than other horses) merely because he's a son of Personal Ensign. I think we should all examine our reasons for such feelings. I suggest that at its root the motivation is selfish.  

The news is so good to hear that the Phipps family, even though they sold Baronial, will be active in securing his welfare for the future. Though, from the Phipps family, I would expect nothing less. They have been class acts in the Thoroughbred industry for over 80 years. They are true horsepeople and sportsmen of the highest class. A good many of today's owners could learn a lot from them on sportsmanship, dignity, and a love of the animal.

Sometimes the written word can be misunderstood. I hope the biting sarcasm was not lost on the reader when I said, "The world of horse racing is full of multi-millionaires and billionaires who "can't afford" to retire their horses. Maybe they don't have enough money to pay for BARONIAL's retirement." There's nothing worse than wealthy people who "can't afford" to do the right thing by their less-fortunate horses.

He would make a good stallion up here in small town Canada.Viceregal

was horse of year here, not a good sire, but his full brother Viceregent

earned $6215 and sired 15.6% stakes horses from foals.

All I have to say is that some of the best stallions in the world didn't have the best race records.  While most the the best racers in the World have poor produce records.

I wish this horse the best of luck in the breeding shed, and hope he lives up to his pedigee.

I think he's handsome tho I do agree that maybe he not breeding material.  I would love for someone to work on him--despite some views, I think he would make decent jumper.  Maybe not top level but he could get the job done for someone with the time and maybe not lofty goals of Spruce Meadows or the Olympics.  If I had the money I would take him and just turn him into a nice fat riding gelding.  To own the son of Personal Ensign would be amazing!

Dear Robert,

You are a polite fellow, I congratulate your success in this game, and apologize for misreading your remark re-Personal Ensign/Easy Goer...Your apparent yardstick for judging stallion performance would seem to place nearly all in the failure bin. Taken to the nth, I suppose one could say that any stallion who on average doesn't sire profitable runners should be considered a failure. All, or nearly all then would be failures. This can't be the case, but rather they should be labeled relative to one another (yielding some sense of a bell shaped curve). Allow me to submit that the abundance of "failure" is rooted in Racing's failed economics.    

there are a good many horses floating around with just as good pedigrees. that does not mean they can reproduce, or make good riding horses.

 i cannot provide a link, but for anyone interested, there is a 16 yr old daughter of affirmed for sale in la. just go to barrel horse world website, she is the first at the bottom of new horses for sale. poss in foal to qh stallion.  is affirmed rolling in  his grave?

to Janesville Liz,

Why didn't the Phipp's step up to the plate when Cynthia's horses were unloaded at Keeneland?  I didn't see them affording Versaille Treaty a nice retirement.  I'd love to know exactly how much the horse loving Phipp's have personally given to retirement charities?  I wonder what the percentage is compared to their profit over the decades? Do you think the dollars donated would live up to your glowing comments?

LCM-----

Cynthia Phipps's horses were part of her estate, and probably had to be sold to settle it or settle tax matters. Versailles treaty I believe went to Gaines Thoroughbreds--hardly a place where she would be mistreated. I do not say the phipps keep all their horses. They do their culling, like any breeder. However, I have never heard of any of their horses winding up in a kill pen.

They have always done right by their horses. What they have given to retirement charities I do not know. But given their love of their horses, I would not be surprised if they did. After all, these were the people who brought Pine Island back to Claiborne to be buried after her death. They did not have to go to the trouble and expense to do that, but they did, not only to honor her, but to afford the staff at Claiborne the opportunity who had raised her to honor her as well. Why don't you call Claiborne and ask what kind of patrons they are? I am sure they will give as much praise as I have.  

To LCM:

I'm not Janesville Liz, but feel I should respond to your post. I am not any more enamored with the Phipps operation than any other, but feel you may have misjudged them. For starters, Versailles Treaty was in-foal when sold by Cynthia's estate at Keeneland. She was getting on in age, but one must assume that her buyer intended to breed her again. Yes, one might argue that a mare of that age should be retired (rather than re-bred), but this seems not your central point. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts; why should a Versailles Treaty be any more deserving on this (your position's) consideration than any other?...Also, re-the Phipps- do you recall a filly named Dancinginmydreams? This royally bred Phipps runner was severely injured (an injury not unlike Barbaro's) while competing in a G-I as a 2 yr. old. The Phipps did everything possible to save her-she was treated and remained at New Bolton for well over a year(I visited her often). Yes, she was quite valuable-particularly as a future broodmare- but many would instead have elected to take the insurance money. It was a long ordeal for her, but she was a wonderful patient, survived, and became the dam of Dancing Forever. To this day, due to the residual effect of her injuries, she requires very special care, and unlike the other Phipps broodmares who are boarded at Claiborne, resides elsewhere... Lastly, don't assume the Phipps breeding and racing operation is a profitable one.    

personal ensign was one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the greatest if not the greatest broodmares who else can you name who produced that many champions and dont say terlingua either just because she through storm cat this horse may be her best son sire wise yet no one knows and besides every family produces less than valuable horses terlingua also through wheaton who was a good cheap sire but nothing more

Thanks to those that posted links to other pictures.  Unfortunately, those pictures tell us little about his conformation.  Many throroughbreds look beautiful when running but are not so well put together when they're standing still.  However, one of the paddock photos shows that he at least is very straight from the front.  He doesn't appear to toe in or out at all.

I agree that his sale photo is horrible.  However, the leg and shoulder issues are going to be obvious no matter how well he is presented.  The appearance of the neck can certainly be affected quite a bit by how he is posed.  However, I have found that otherwise well put together horses with less than ideal necks are more suited for riding careers than horses with pretty necks and poor leg conformation.

He does have a pretty expression, though.

WHOAPONY - I 100% agree with in. His legs overall give an impression of weakness. Everything it too long, from pastern to forearm. Forearms and gaskin look weak too. I don't like his front end structure either. Geld him and find someone who will have fun with him. Breeding him -- for race or sport -- won't do anyone any favors.

With that said, I have seen CANTER photos where one shot looks spectacular and another looks like this one, so seeing him in person would be the best thing.

I disagree to some extent about shoulder.  Although it looks a bit straight, properly posed, with his neck where it should be, would help determine his shoulder set better.  From all that I have seen and read, I would have to see this guy in person to evaluate him properly.  

As far as knocking him totally as a breeding stallion, remember that Secretariat was supposed to be the heir apparent to Bold Ruler.  However, as a first generation stallion, especially given the mares that he was, he was not particularly impressive.  And even then, his daughters were better than his colts.  Now, however, his daughters and granddaughters are prized.  Yes, my first thought is still to geld this boy and give him a good home.  As many times as blood has told, just not where you especially thought it would, makes me think that perhaps he deserves a chance.  Look for lines that should nick with him and add a few outcrosses, keep his book small, and see what he does.  He could make an interesting regional sire that, if he did well, could grow.  Who knows?

I would be curious to know if any of you know where Miner's Mark is presently.  Since he was pensioned he seems to have moved several times, and the last location I'm aware of was somewhere in Virginia.  I would also be curious to know how you feel Proud and True has done as a sire.  

       Yes, This stallion has a great pedigree, there are many stallions that do but,they just dont make it as a stallion ! There are too many unwanted horses !! I'm sure this horse can get a good home or use him as a hunter or dressage horse .

It's a shame this colt wasn't gelded upon maturity, in spite of those bloodlines.....His conformation is poor at best and his racing career was at best an embarrasment.  I'm a lifelong fan of the Phipps racing stable, and cannot imagine how this one just couldn't get the job done.  They would never turn any horse they bred or raised over to the "kill Pen" as someone stated, but it would be nice to find Baronial maybe a home as a useful lesson horse or track pony perhaps.