Holy cow, yes! A stakes winning mare inbred to State. She has tremendous broodmare potential.

I'm a little disappointed in the production record of Territory overall, which is a weakness.

But an AP Indy-line mare gives her lots of oppotunity in the future w/ plenty of Storm Cat-line sons.

I don't think $15,000 is less than what she would bring at KEENOV. The sale last year was bad, with alot of really good mares selling for less than $20,000, so I think $15,000 is actually a fair market value for her as a broodmare prospect, regardless of claiming price. However, if she remains sound through another year of racing, she could easily earn $50,000 in minor stakes/allowance company which would increase her value.

As a note, Claiborne has already announced Stroll is returning in 2010 (fee unknown).

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the angry phone calls to come to you from her owners and/or trainers because they had to scratch her this weekend if they wanted to keep her.lol

Very worthy of claiming, and if it were me, she would never be in a claiming race again. Her pedigree interests me too. She seems to be hitting her stride as she grows into herself, as we know some horses are late bloomers. She is a good broodmare prospect.

What happened for her to drop so low?

Awesome mare.......but stay away from Storm Cat.  Crazy minds and cannot get 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 miles.  Send her to Tiznow, Quiet American, Birdstone or Empire Maker.  This mare is a gold mine.  I would go to $30,000 for her.  Nice find.

Sweet Terchi asked why anyone would let a mare like this drop to claiming ranks - easy.  They aren't breeders and they don't care.  They race - period.  They tell the trainer to put her where she'll win.  Happens all the time and gives people like us opportunities we might not otherwise get.

     I was always a big fan of Pulpit ! I remembered seeing him in the Racing Form as a three year old maiden in his first race! I liked his pedigree and connections and had a feeling he'd be something nice! He has definately proved himself as a race horse and a sire ! Getting back to Stroll , he has definately proved himself as a first crop sire of two year olds ! That's why I was confused on why Claiborne had sold him to Italy ? Thankfully he'll be back to the States for next season ! I hope !

Here are the facts and here are the real numbers;  The subject filly sold for $10,000 as a yearling which tells me she was not much to look at coming from a very good Claiborne family. She is out of a mare that is obviously a disappointment. Territory had two yearlings that made respectable money in the ring, a 99 filly by Mt Livermore for $100,000  unplaced in 2 starts, her first foal was by a stallion named Cloud Hopping.  I guess they did not think much of her.  A 98 filly by Devil's Bag who sold for $140,000 and ran once, unplaced and who has been bred to the likes of ; Tale of the Cat, Artax, Hold That Tiger none of them brought their stud fees.  Territory had 2 more filly as of 2005 (my produce records only goes to 2006) an 05 by Swain and an 06 by Flatter race records unknown to me.  But considering that nothing out of this mare has paid their training fees let alone their production cost I doubt they will be any help.  So now we have a potential broodmare with little to nothing helping in the immediate family.  Yes the subject filly is a winner of 8 races at a bush track and the restricted stakes wins or places are of little to no value at this track.  She is the 5th pick in a $15,000 claiming so it is safe to say that her best racing days are behind her.  If I were the owner I would hope that someone claims her.  It would be a gift.  If she were to go through a Kentucky breeding stock sale in this market empty she would be lucky to make $5,000.  In a good market maybe $15,000.  You need to keep in mind that it cost roughly $30,000 from the time of cover to the fall of the hammer to raise a yearling for the market. The "goods" would be in the third dam, State, with two blanks in-between.  So, you gotta ask yourself; Do you feel lucky?

I think Stroll would be a good stallion for my mare by ( Honour and Glory )  I did a hypothetical and the resulting foal would be inbred 4sX4d to Weekend Surprise and 5sX5d to Secretariat and 5sX5d to Lassie Dear . I also like the Seattle Slew - Relaunch cross ! What do you think ? Sorry to go off the subject :)    

• Scot's reply:  Ah, Weekend Surprise... wonderful mare.  Love the multiple lines of Somethingroyal.  I wonder how your mare would cross with the turf bloodlines that Stroll's family perpetuates?

I'll be at Canterbury Park on Sunday:-)

God, I'd love to own her.  I'd breed her to K One King (G-1 winning Round Table grandson) for a great Louisiana bred.  Oh well, just dreams for now!  I can't believe they're running this filly for a claiming tag.  They'll sure scratch her after this article, LOL.

Just take a glance at her when she runs by....not a pretty mover and not a nice looking mare overall.  Regards to Larry Donlin, but she beat a lot of fillies at Fonner Park that could be bought for $5,000 now.  I would wait a year or two and you might be able to pluck her out of Nebraska for that much.

My name is Greg.  I own the mare Territory.  Although she hasn't produced anything of great significance, the chance to own her and her pedigree alone convinced me to take a chance.  This is actually my first full year of owning her along with my other mare, Fob.  I feel very fortunate to own them both being new to the ownership side of the business.  Take a look at Fob's pedigree.  Her dam was phenomenal.  Both mares gave me healthy and very correct Flatter fillies this past March.  I have both mares back in foal to War Front.  If anybody is interested in getting involved, please feel free to call me anytime.  I would be glad to show them to you as well.  Thanks. [Editor's note: phone number removed; I will pass along your email if you would like to contact this poster.]

With that pedigree, I'd pick her up in a heartbeat! La Troienne, the greatest broodmare in America in the 20th century, never won a race. Neither did Secretariat's dam, Somethingroyal, and Aspidistra, the dam of Dr. Fager and Ta Wee, won only twice. Not that this filly will ever be in the league as these titans, but stranger things have happened. She deserves a good shot.  

surprise they scrached her!

I am an agent and pedigree anylyst and do agree that many times the best place to pick up a potential broodmare is at the track but there are many risks. As was noted above being from a decent family the fact she brought such a low price makes me think she has some major conformation flaws. Secondly, often mres on the track are injected with many medications (hard to believe) that effect the reproductive system. Shrunken ovaries could make her sterile

        Sorry to go off the subject "again" ! I took my family to meet it's newest member ! She ( Wasted Words ) is a real sweetheart ! Very calm and easy going ! She's kinda small, I dont think she's over 15 hands ! She must take after the Northern Dancer side of her pedigree ! Since I have no kids , I call her my " Baby Girl "  !! Wish me luck, if you have any breeding suggestions let me know : )

In case you missed it, Stroll picked up another stakes winner yesterday, when Smuggler's Hold won the Manitoba Derby.  Given the small number and relatively low quality of his first book, his results are absolutely outstanding.  Like his daddy, they seem to run on anything - dirt, synthetics, and turf.  Tapit got another new stakes winner this weekend, too.  Now just have to see if Purge can finally get going!  With Corinthian, Sightseeing, and Pyro still to come (and don't forget Oratory) Pulpit could really make a mark.

Oh, yeah, Claiborne has finally added Stroll back to their website.  Hopefully he generates a lot more interest this time around!

I would believe that with the state of the market if she did go through the Nov sales she would NOT fetch more than what she's running for.

Seems like the filly has some sort of flaws,but with that pedigree,she should be a useful broodmare at the least.I'd suggest a Roberto/Sadler's Well nick' cross when her racing days are over to enhance her already fabulous Turf-breeding...  They probably received a "private offer" for her purchase that was too good to turn-down at this point,hence her scratch,..or the vets' deemed her "unfit" to race,for some reason(s).The class drop is an indication she's in rapid declining mode,too bad.Somethings obviously not right with her.Hopefully she goes to people who will do her justice,long term wise.

Robert:  what are you talking about?...ever heard of Giant's Causeway,Cat Thief or Tabasco Cat(just to name a few)?...BTW: a mare is a 5yo/older female horse,she's a filly(4yo/under).

What do you know about the sire(deceased) Compliance?

• Scot's reply:  He was a full brother to Ashford's El Gran Senor and group I winner Try My Best. Sire of grade I winners Master McGrath and Fourstars Allstar, and of fan favorite Allstardave.  From the Best in Show line.

The Stroll filly won an (N), or non-qualifying, stakes so she won't receive black type for it in most American catalogs.

Scot's reply:  True -- but she did earn black type for her place effort in the Goldfinch Stakes.  Officially she's a black type-placed restricted stakes winner.

Sorry to go off the subject, but I have a KO Punch mare out of a Cox's Ridge mare. I'm thinking of breeding her...or not. What do you all think. You seem to have some real experts on this site and I would love their input. Thanks.

Sorry to go off the subject, but I have a KO Punch mare out of a Cox's Ridge mare. I was thinking of breeding her....or not. What do you all think? You seem to have some real experts on this site and I would love their input. Thanks.

Stakes placed is a far cry from stakes winning, Scot, especially in today's market. Your original premise--that this filly represented great value at $15,000--I think is an exaggerated claim. Even a cursory look at the January Keeneland sale catalog prices (which is the only true measure of value) would provide you with many better examples of a 'good buy' than this filly.

IMO, she's a $5,000 broodmare prospect at best.

BTW,  an "N" race is not necessarily the same as an "R", or restricted race. Officially, she's an "NR" race winner, which will not appear as black-type anywhere other than in Louisiana, New York Breeders, and several other small sales companies' catalogs.

Kari:

If I may,I'd like to give my 2-cents input regarding your question. :}

But first,can you tell us how old she is,how many foes she's had(coupled with their success on the track & who were the sires),and also what range of covering Sires' fee are you looking at? The state where you're breeding her will be a big help also..

Kari, are you looking for a New York based sire???

Coincidentally yesterday Byron Rogers, managing partner of Pedigree Consultants, posted the following to an online pedigree theory site: "there are a surprising number of stakes winning fillies running in the lower ranks now ..."

Hi all,

Very interesting discussion.

I currently train the Flatter/territory 2yo. she is in Trinidad and doing very well. Fingers crossed you'll hear more of her towards the end of the year.

Greg, hold omto that mare!!

On another note, I picked up a 4yo filly Poolside Miss at the Keeneland Jan sale  by Came home out of Bering cruise by Danzig.  

Poolside Miss 3rd dam is Lassie Dear, any suggestions on which sire line she should be sent to next year??

My mare is 8 now. She has not had any foals as I am currently training has as a show horse, so she has a wonderful disposition. She raced 2 years, mainly at Prairie Downs (her racing name was KO Phyllis). We live in New York, but would consider shipping her close by. I would say my range of prices would be in the $1,000 - $5,000 area.

Storm Cats can't get a mile and a quarter? Have you noticed that Gio Ponti is by Tale of the Cat? That Pure Clan, by Pure Prize, has won a Grade One at 1 1/4? That Lion Heart, by Tale of the Cat, and Bluegrass Cat, by Storm Cat, were second in the Kentucky Derby? What about the before mentioned Giant's Causeway, Tabasco Cat, and Cat Thief? Sorry if I sounded rude, but Storm Cat is my favorite sire and I can't stand it when someone insults him unfairly.        

Kari,  Blogs are not the place to go for expert advise. Especially for breeding horses.  Anybody can sound like an expert on blogs.  No disrespect to those bloggers who are professionals in the industry or those who do not make their make living breeding horses but have many years under them as a student of the industry and a sound understanding of the process.  The first and most important question is, what do you plan to do with her foal?  We bred and raise Thoroughbreds for a living and we also re-school ex-racers for the show ring. So, if your mare shows a lot of talent over the jumps I would continue with her in that direction.  If she has won jumper shows at a mid to high level and you want a foal to follow her in the ring fair enough. But remember you are looking at 3-4 years before you will be able to work with the resulting foal.  Not to mention many $$$$ and time and work even if you have your own farm. What the world does NOT need is another horse just because one can.  This mare would have to be very special to be worth breeding out of. For race or show.  There are plenty of potential show, performance, eventer, ect, Thoroughbred prospects out there that can be had for free and are in desperate need of a home.  I bought a very good moving 5 year old ex-racer out of a field for $500 just by throwing some stones at him in the field and watching him move.  I gave him to my wife who taught him to jump.  He has been champion and reserve champion at a number of good shows. But his real calling is fox hunting.  We turned down $50,000 for him!  Crazy I know but he is my wife's horse.  She has been hunting since she was a kid and he is the best horse she has ever had. I suppose that is why we are always broke.  It's just too hard to sell the good ones.

I tried to look up her pedigree in my American Produce Records but nothing comes up using the name KO Phyllis.  The spelling has to be exact unless you know her dams exact name. My gut tells me she is not worth breeding.  She raced at Prairie Downs, the fact that she is out of a Cox's Ridge mares tells me she is out of an old mare.  If anything special happened in the family you would have gotten a call from a bloodstock agent by now.  Hope this helps.

Kari:

For starters,I'd try Mayakovsky($3,000 live foal,I'm sure u can bargain with them too) in your state @ Mill Creek Farm--Stillwater,NY.

Slew' over Two Punch has nicked pretty good so far,turf or dirt.Plus he throws beautiful foals.

A broodmare? Who is your buyer for the resulting foal going to be. Do a marketing study of your prospective buyer, find out what you need to clear on the prospective foal,.-do the math. What does a buyer willing to pay for offspring that will be commercially viable want to pay. Hello....this filly should not be considered if your goal is to produce salable horses.

Kenneth, glad to hear the Territory 2 yr. old filly is doing well.  Feel free to contact me through email.  I am very interested in hearing more about her.  Hopefully my email will be published.  The former owner of Territory (after Claiborne) said the weanling I have is the nicest foal he has seen her produce.  She seems like the complete package right now.  I know a lot can change, but I am keeping my fingers crossed.  I want to try and sell both of my weanlings as a package deal.  I am skipping the Keeneland sale in hopes of eliminating extra costs and stress.  I have a few private parties interested so far.  No matter what, I just want to do right by the horses.  If I could afford it, I would take a chance and race them myself.  But that reward will have to come on down the road.  I do plan on keeping both mares.  I took a leap of faith breeding them both to War Front.  I say that only from the financial aspect of it.  He is all class.  War Front's first crop will hit the track next year.  We are hoping and expecting big things from him.  He should have a great chance. Being a son of Danzig sure isn't going to hurt him.  His foals and yearlings look outstanding thus far.  Thanks for the reply.  Best of luck to you.

If anyone wants to contact me privately, my email is:

groberts@claibornefarm.com

Hopefully this information has been posted.

Thanks everyone for the input. I have not decided on whether to breed her and I know this world does not need any more unwanted horses as she is a rescue herself. But since she is the love of my life, I wanted to know what you very knowledgeable people thought. BTW, her dam's name is Come On Phyllis.

Kari,

Your mare was bought for $19,000 as weanling at an Iowa sale. She started 23 times and made a little over, $58,000, 2 wins, 4 2nds, 6 3rds.  Her momma was unraced and a $28,000 Keeneland November weanling. She is a foal of 96 and a half sister to Kiss the Devil, a grade 3 winner of over $380,000 and I am sure she is being bred to good  stallions.  Your mare's pedigree is worth looking into more closely. If you were going to breed to race, at first look, I think she is worthy.  It is far better then most out there. You can get a fully updated pedigree at Equineline.com, the exact spelling is K. O. Phyllis and her dams name is all one word.

Kenneth, regarding Poolside Miss, I would try her with any successful stallion with a line of Lassie Dear, maybe Mingun.  There's a lot out there that have her in thier pedigree.  I'm no expert on pedigrees (I've only been studying them about 2 years) but I strongly believe in inbreeding to successful females.  Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I will contribute an opinion.