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I know I would welcome Kamsin into the US.  If I were a breeder and a had a good quality broodmare band, I would send my finest ones to him.  I think it's time that we bring in "outside" bloodline influences, just like in the old days when Arthur "Bull" Hancock and many other prominent breeders bought European stallions to introduce new blood.  The American Thoroughbred bloodlines have too many Storm Cats, Mr. Prospectors, etc. in their pedigree.  We need new, fresh blood to help purify the inbreeding practices.

I would breed to him in a heartbeat, given a reasonable stud fee. The German stud is a very exclusive club..only horses that have NEVER raced on medication of any kind, in any country, can stand in Germany. This means that the horse, and his sire and German antecedents never raced on Bute, Lasix, steroids or any of the plethora of drugs American trainers seem to think are necessary for a race horse. So, if you want a sound horse, from a sound line, then go German. Nothing was masked by drugs during their careers, nothing. So there are no weaknesses that were "dealt with" using Bute, or clenbuterol, or any of the rest of the permitted racing drugs.

Personally, I would like to go back to the old med rules that were around when Secretariat won the Triple Crown..no medication at all allowed. The "no medications" rule makes for sounder horses, and also makes owners and trainers give the horses a break during the year. Back in the day, horses got two months off every year, in winter for northern horses and in summer for southern horses. This gave them the chance to recoup, rest and heal from the racing campaign and do a little maturing without having energy siphoned off by training and racing. The new methods have not done anything to improve the breed, they have weakened it by allowing unsound horses to breed, by putting the emphasis on sales prices instead of performance on the track, and by having more of the attitude of an investment banker towards horses rather than that of a horseman. Get your money back is the main theme these days, not breed and train the best race horse. When the emphasis in the industry swings back to that of a horseman, then the industry, and the breed, will improve. But as long as people treat their race horses like investments instead of living breathing athletes that need careful development, the breed will suffer.

So, back to the original question..yes, I am a horseman, so a sound horse with stamina would be a great boon for the breeders. Not so much for the investment types..it will take too long for the investment to mature for them. Horsemen have patience, bankers don't.

Yeah, durability and longevity would never make it in this culture addicted to engineered obsolescence.

To those that want to watch 2 furlong dashes...go watch quarter horses.  Let the two year olds grow.

Five Cross Files...I'm right there with you as a big fan of Mr. Hancock.  Given recent events I think we will start to see that shift towards sound and enduring bloodlines.

I would love to see Kamsin stand in the US, but there may be only a niche market for his offspring. Would they be early-maturing, ie ready for 2 year old in training sales? Kamsin is currently 3--did he run at 2? Did he win at 2? Also, would his offspring be able to compete at shorter distances? What is the shortest distance at which Kamsin has raced well? Even with the popularity of Evening Attire's recent distance exploits and the advent of the new Breeder's Cup Marathon, this is a pretty small market.

• Scot's reply:  Kamsin ran once at 2 (a 1-mile race in November). Since then, he's progressed from 8.5 furlongs to the 12-furlong distance of the Deutsches Derby.

For Maggie...I love Secretariat BUT he had an injection of Equipiose every 3-4 weeks.  Alot of horses and mares back then did.  That's one theory as to why some of the great race mares never did well as broodmares (not getting in foal every year).

And in general, some outcrossing is preferable in breeding anything.  Unfortunately American breeders seem unwilling to do so for whatever reason and it is hurting.

Hi there

Can i mention the stallion Galileo he would be perfect for US breeders.He won the english and irish derby's and was a very sound racehorse.If you look at his pedigree he's by sadlers wells out of an arc winning mare urdan sea so there's stamina all over the place,but most intresting of all galileo has sired the last two champion juveniles in teofilo and new approach over here in europe.Both of which never ran beyond 7f in there championship year.So to conclude galileo is getting champions that are running all distances for 6f to 12f as for german horses as you blog points out they are also inbred alot and it is this inbreeding that is weakening the breed.Medication is a side issue in this debate as far as i'm concerned.

No question, i would in a heartbeat. It's time to sacrifice the quick cheap thrill for substantial race , the betterment of the sport, and the welfare of the horse.

I suscribe every word about Galileo. He looks a more versatile stallion than Germans in general. However, I believe that any farm in the US would benefit from  sending a couple of medium size, well bred 7 furlongs to a mile US mares to a sire such as Kamsin.

If I were a breeder I would send almost every mare I owned to a foreign bred sire standing in America because of the difference in stamina and soundness. But even with this I don't think that a horse like Kamsin would be successful here because here we want 1 year wonders who run on dirt and can travel 1 1/4 (KY Derby) because of the fame and fortune that comes with winning a race such as that.

I would eagerly, happily, joyfully breed to this horse or others like him, given an affordable chance.

That said, in my opinion, three things need to happen for a horse like this to succeed in the U.S.

1) Every track that claims they have Thoroughbred racing must write multiple, true distance races at ALL racing levels for horses like this to have a career even possible.

2) We need to cultivate a new generation of trainers who actually have horsemanship and training skills, and that don't train by the needle to make up for their inability to train Lassie to bark.

2) The big money breeders have to start breeding for racing instead of trying to make a killing at Keeneland so we stop undermining the breed for a quick buck.

I for one would welcome Kamsin in the United States. Speed is okay and good, but I like the distance runners more than I like the sprinters. Races longer than 1 1/4 miles appeal to me more than anything else, and bloodlines that promise staying power and DURABILITY are 100x more appealing than anything else available in the United States.

I say we bring him over and stand him as a stallion. The infusion of new blood will strengthen the already-too-weak bloodlines we have here.

Gee - a horse that's a proven sire of stamina and endurance PLUS a complete outcross to the major bloodlines in America - what's NOT to love about that!  I'd breed a cross section of mares - light, speedy types as well as more classic types and see what works best.  I remember that Lady's Secret was the result of breeding Secretariat to a fast little known mare with no classic distance ability.  After years of breeding to a majority of classic mares with very mixed results - he hit one out of the park when bred to basically a cheap sprinter.  Who would have guessed the Gray Lady would have resulted?

Speaking of Secretariat - Rose - you are incorrect in your information - I have it from the direct connections that Secretariat did NOT run on any sort of drug.  He was pinfired early in his two year old year - but he did not receive injections outside of what was required based on illness.  The rumors about Secretariat and drugs have been around for years - so I'm not surprised you read it somewhere -but it is not true.  Just that simple.  Sometimes - greatness is just that - a natural greatness.  Hard to fathom in today's world where both Curlin and Big Brown receive Winstrol to enhance their physique and overall attitude.

Gee - a horse that's a proven sire of stamina and endurance PLUS a complete outcross to the major bloodlines in America - what's NOT to love about that!  I'd breed a cross section of mares - light, speedy types as well as more classic types and see what works best.  I remember that Lady's Secret was the result of breeding Secretariat to a fast little known mare with no classic distance ability.  After years of breeding to a majority of classic mares with very mixed results - he hit one out of the park when bred to basically a cheap sprinter.  Who would have guessed the Gray Lady would have resulted?

Speaking of Secretariat - Rose - you are incorrect in your information - I have it from the direct connections that Secretariat did NOT run on any sort of drug.  He was pinfired early in his two year old year - but he did not receive injections outside of what was required based on illness.  The rumors about Secretariat and drugs have been around for years - so I'm not surprised you read it somewhere -but it is not true.  Just that simple.  Sometimes - greatness is just that - a natural greatness.  Hard to fathom in today's world where both Curlin and Big Brown receive Winstrol to enhance their physique and overall attitude.

Until you ban lasix, bute, & steroids. I don't think most breeders will be interested in a stallion like this. Most U.S.  dirt horses with any racing merit  are retired at the end of their 3 yr old campaign. They make more money in the breeding shed then on the track. Over the years we have shortened race distances and created artificial surfaces to accommodate the weaknesses in our American bred horses. Outcross stallions with those types of qualities are needed to put vigor & conformation back in our bloodlines, but unless something changes, I don't see most of them being well received. By adding new blood, you may just get an animal with the speed, stamina, & stature needed to take on the Triple Crown & win.    

Thank you Cgriff for standing up for Secretariat.  I didn't know how I would and could do that because I was born about a year before his tragic death.  To put in a bit more support for you, I remember reading in William Nack's book on Big Red that that was in the era where horses were bieng caught with drugs in their systems, and that Secretariat helped redefine the role that he did it all on his own.  Not only did Secretariat come at a trying time for America (Post-Vietnam and Watergate), but also a time in horse racing where scandals erupted in the news with regards to drugs.  Big Red came with no baggage, with no scandal, but only with the strength of his heart.

Oh, and since not very many people appreciate Secretariat's effectiveness in the breeding shed, he did also produce Risen Star, not as close but able to win the Belmont in the same type of fashion as his daddy.  Secretariat carried the type of broodmare sire gene as his dam's sire, Princequillo.  He too was just as important to the breeding shed by producing good quality broodmares.  Look at the results Secretariat got as a broodmare sire:  A. P. Indy, Storm Cat, etc.   We wouldn't get the kind of powerhouse stallions like those without Secretariat being a most influential broodmare sire.  Broodmare sires are just as important as stallions who produce excellent progeny.

I have a question. If no anti bleeder medication is accepted in Germany, what do they do with horses that prolificly bleed in races? Do horses that bleed once in a race bleed in every race? I know that trainers start their horses on Lasix even when they don't need it as a "just in case scenario". As for this German bloodline we are talkin about, could be a good idea but with just one horse in the mix I don't see this as making much of a difference. We need a farm over here to make a commitment to buy dozens of these horses and try to thin this fragile line out. On the other hand, this line we have now is geared to American tastes. We love sprint races (Summit of Speed at Calder!) and even our most popular sports, football and basketball and even baseball require sprinter speed. We are the best in track and feild sprints, but not soccer because its slow and boring. Face it, most Americans

want instant gratification and sprints live up to that. Its a shame that a horse breakes down, I hate it, but this has been happening since the beginning of horse racing. And I'm not sure that European horses are bred more soundly than American horses. But anyway, I need sprint races to counteract my attention deficit disorder.

Why do 90% of US horses REQUIRE Lasix and only 10-15% of Ire/UK/GER/JP/SaF/etc have to come to the US?? I guess to look positively-the forign bleeders have a place to go....

In answer to the question about what happens to horses that bleed - the short version is they don't race!  Why would you continue to race a horse that is prone to bleeding, and why on earth would you want to breed from such a horse.

The German regulations have resulted in some great horses coming out of a country with a comparatively small breeding/racing industry - Monsun, Tiger Hill, Lomitas, Kazzia to name a few.

That's a great point, Cheryl.  Why would you want to race a horse that is prone to such things?  That would cause more accidents waiting to happen.  Thank you for your input.  We need a European's perspective of things.

I'm in agreement with all the previous posters who favor the introduction of new breeding lines intended to improve the soundness and stamina of the American throroughbred. However, I don't agree with the opinion that most U.S. runners REQUIRE bute, lasix, etc. in order to be successful on the racetrack. On the opening day of Royal Ascot several weeks ago, 4 of the top 5 finishers in the St. James Palace Stakes were bred in the U.S. None of whom raced with the aforementioned medications. While I agree that increasing the diversity of American breeding lines should be a goal for all conscientious breeders, let's not forget the amazing success that our industry continues to achieve.

I don't want to be a jerk, but who are these "racing enthusiasts". They don't seem to truly be horse enthusiasts. Many are bettors. What do the really care of one-fifth of a second? They still apply their craft. Damn history and records, we need to worry about the future. We don't need horses that snap like peanut brittle. Speed? Give these guys a slower burning cigarette and a longer drawing beer and they'll be happy.

I would send every mare in my band to him.  The dams of the foals I liked would be sent back to him.  The dams of the foals who were good racehorses would be sent back to him.  Its about time American breeders stopped whining about unsoundness and fixed their thought process on pedigrees and product.

I wonder why it is more exciting to win the Kentucky Derby than the Belmont and the Arc.  The horse that wins the Belmont and the Arc is the best horse in the world....

• Scot's reply:  My goal as a Thoroughbred breeder is to produce a Belmont winner.  The Derby is the most important race in the world, but the Belmont separates the good from the great.

Back on my soapbox. See what happens when speed is everything? You forget half of what you want to say. My question is what will happen to the Breeder's Cup Mile when it becomes the Classic? Will Da Hoss become a Classic winner. yes, I know I left out Miesque, but she's from Europe. She must be slow.

It's time to write longer races and attach bigger purses. Or maybe that was a chorus of boos I heard when Evening Attire crossed the finish line first in the Greenwood Cup. I'll get back to you all later; I'm not taking ADD medicine so I'm a little loose here, but speed is everything so I'll ride it out.

i would like it alot if good new blood would be injected into our lines.i still say two yr olds should not run. they should start as three yr olds and run the derby as four yr olds. i believe they would all be more sound.

Jim, I'm trying to figure out what your argument is. Our distance races and sprints are very much equally proportioned. How can you suggest that the Breeder cup mile would be our classic? This is ridiculus. 2 mile races will never be a popular option in this country. Just try to push that idea through the race organizers and see what happens. I do like sprints and I don't think we have a big problem with fragility, I see many horses running past 8 years. People cheered Evening Attire because he is racing and winning at an older age and this says alot about his soundness. I don't mind long races sprinkled in with the sprints, its just having to wait for the excitement to kick in when they finally hit the stretch. Oh, and by the way I don't really have A.D.D., I was just trying to be lighthearted about the situation.

I grew up in Germany, and was involved with racing there from 1969-1982, a period of time where German racing was just starting to make solid inroads into international racing, and this was also before the real "internationalization" of European racing; by 1990 (after the fall of the Berlin Wall), racing was already on the improve in Eastern Europe, and you will notice that after 1990 Group winners in every country were often running and winning all over the continent - prior to that, the majority of Group (Graded Stakes) winners in any given country typically were bred in that nation.

So, for a long time German breeding was in the hands of about a dozen breeding farms that controlled about 60-70% percent of the quality bloodstock market (Gestuht Schlenderhan and Gestuht Bona, and Gestuht Ittlingen (sp) and Gestuht Isarland readily come to mind).  They were primarily breed-to-race operations; they put an emphasis on soundness, stamina, and stoutness.  I say "stoutness" because racing in Germany, from the months of October through May, is usually contested on deep turf.  Boggy conditions.  It takes a strong horse to win in these circumstances. For that reason, Germans love big, strong gallopers.  Big feet, big shoulders, pleny of height, and plenty of bone.  Look at the German horses that dominate today; they all have that in common.

By and large, Germans train their horses to win at distances of a mile and an eighth to a mile and a half....that's that baseline...if they show a propensity to speed, they shorten them up, if they appear to want to go longer, they steer them towards a mile and 5/8ths and beyond, or they consider them as steeplechasers....(not talking NSA-type hurdles here....steeplechasing in Germany is over big brush fences and water jumps, similiar to France and England)...again, usually contested in the winter months, and under boggy conditions.

You won't see fractured bones and horses having complete breaksdowns in deep stretch in Germany...they do happen, but it's a rarity.  What you will see are bowed tendons, and German breeders are wary of long pasterns, because in Germany it's the kiss of death; with deep turf you are going to have problems with long pasterns, and bowed tendons are much more prevalent there than in the U.S.

Bleeders are a rarity. If a horse bleeds, he is relegated to lower level racing, or retired altogether.

I have thought many times about what would happen if German blood were imported in the U.S. - would it be successful?  Well, it would make for a sounder horse. But it would not make for a faster horse.  At least, not for several generations; so which breeder is going to stand up and take the first step?  I live in Florida, home of the "Summit of Speed".  Speed is king here.  Calder gears it's program to baby races, and Ocala has them going an eighth of a mile in 9 seconds and change by the time that they are 20-22 months old....so.....who's going to mate to a German stallion?.....

Running Stag was a prototypical German horse....from the Orsini line; he was very successful in the U.S. as a racehorse, but so far has failed at stud...I believe he was shipped off from Florida to Texas (?) a few years ago...my hunch is that he probably did not get the mares.  

If a breeder has the pockets deep enough to endure 2-3 generations of slow but sound horses before his runners start to earn a profit, then by all means breed to a German sire...but it might take that long to be successful.  We have bred for speed for so long that the U.S. thoroughbreed is going to take that long to bring back to soundness.

To Clay:

One reson for countrys like Germany not needing LAXIS is that they don't allow BUTE (witch is a bloodthinner just like asperin) and they don't concider a horse that bleeds to be fit to racing, some bleeders are given time off, up to 6-7 months after bleeding before resuming racing or they are reteired all toghether.