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The Rest of Their Lives

There's no question that there are some unpleasant aspects of the Thoroughbred world. Breakdowns and drugs are getting headlines these days (and let's hope that the attention results in some positive changes).  Stories about slaughter and abuse receive a lot of attention. Another sometimes-ugly part of the racing industry -- one that doesn't appear in the spotlight quite as often -- is on the breeding end.

Last week, I published what I intended to be a sort of "feel-good" post about a successful racehorse that was produced from an older mare.  My story opened a floodgate of reader comments and emails -- many of which are published with the original article -- that concentrated on the backstory of older mares and the breeding industry.

So, what are the problems?

1. Well, let's start with breeding older mares, since that was directly pulled from the Archipenko story. How old is too old?  Is it cruel to breed older mares?  Would only a fool breed a mare whose first few foals weren't huge successes?

I think age 20 is a good rule of thumb for when to pension a broodmare. Some health or physical conditions might bring that down to 15 or 16 for certain horses.  Other mares -- especially solid, stout individuals that have had several unbred/barren years -- are fine to breed up to even 22 years old. 

Looking at it from a slightly different perspective:  I'd pretty much draw the line at about a dozen foals from any given mare -- but that's a personal preference.  I like to give my mares off at least every third year, and in some cases every other year, so it's unlikely that I'll ever see more than eight to 10 foals out of a single mare in her full breeding career. (And that assumes I have her from the start of her career and she produces foals of high enough quality to continue breeding her.)

That said... we don't always start out with fresh young broodmares.  For the most part, well-bred mares tend to be prohibitively expensive. Small breeders wanting blue-blooded mares often have two choices:

  • Buy a "failed" broodmare at age 12-15 -- one that has received multiple opportunities with good stallions but hasn't produced a "big horse."
  • Find a mare that has had good offspring but that -- for whatever reason -- is now a hard breeder and is nearing the end of her reproductive years.  Maybe she's been barren two years in a row and her owner is ready to cut his losses, so he enters her in a sale as an open 18-year-old. 

Small breeders sometimes can spend the time with an individual mare to increase her chances -- while larger operations aren't set up to do so.  A smaller breeder brings other factors into the mix as well -- often including a new set of bloodlines that might cross better with the mare's pedigree than the (higher-priced) stallions she had met previously.

As for whether it's fair to keep broodmares producing as they get older... I think that mares are biologically driven to want to raise foals. I've seen tired, bored old mares perk up when tasked with raising a new little one. Responsible and caring breeders can tell when one of their mares is mentally ready to retire -- and when that knowledge is added to veterinary examination for reproductive soundness, the best interest of the mare can be discerned.

2.  And how about pensioning these mares?  Do most farms really allow their best producers to literally breed to death?  Do broodmares ever live a comfortable retirement? Can they be repurposed?

Unfortunately, "died due to complications of foaling" is a catch phrase used far too often in industry publications.  Sure, many of these complications are unavoidable. True horsemen who love their horses deal with such tragedy every foaling season. And undomesticated and feral horse herds experience high incidences of mare deaths during parturition.  Sad, but it is a reality of equine reproduction that procreation is not without risk.

What is worrisome is that there are farms that push their mares beyond a reasonable expectation of health and reproductive soundness, intent to get from her all that she can give.  In those cases, mares are bred beyond what their bodies can tolerate.  Occasionally, something gives, and with horses -- great big fragile machines that they are -- recovery often isn't possible. It's much more than a failure of the mare's body... it's truly a failure of her guardian and caregiver to recognize that the mare has had enough and deserves to be retired.

The cold economic reality is that pensioning a broodmare is not cheap.  She might go on to live another five or 10 years, or even longer, beyond her last foal. She's stopped contributing to the farm's income, but continues to require feed, handling, veterinary care, and farriery, none of which become less expensive as she ages.  Breeders must plan ahead and prepare for each mare's eventual retirement. The two best options are:

  • Start an individual retirement account for each mare.  If you raced her, contribute a percentage of her on-track earnings every time she's raced.  If you sell her foals, set aside a percentage of each sale.  If you raise and race her foals, channel part of their winnings to the mare's retirement fund.
  • Train broodmares to be ready for a new career.  If breeders would spend time over the +/- 15-year breeding career of each mare teaching her to ride or drive, she could become a pleasure mount, a trail or carriage horse, or a child's schooling horse. Not only would the exercise be good during her years of carrying foals, but it would give the mare a sense of purpose in her later years.  A horse that can be ridden is always more likely to find a new home than a "pasture ornament."  Another potential new use for older mares is "nanny" for weanlings and yearlings.  You've already spent time and energy teaching these mares the farm routine -- why not let them help instruct the next generation? 

 

49 Comments:

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The Five-Cross Files 12 Aug 2008 8:35 AM

Thanks for opening this up to the barrage you know you're gonna' get!

I don't want to hear that keeping "pensioned" horses isn't cost effective...when you deal with living beings that earn you $$$ it's part of your business plan to be ready for that inevitability.

We, horse owners of all kinds, all have to plan for "pensioning" our senior horses. Hundreds of thousands of us have let our old guys live to the end of their life with us and they never earned a dime for us. I have 3 seniors right now, 31, 25 and 23 who are back busy being "pets" and hay is $8.50/bale and Senior pellets are almost $17/50 lbs. and my house needs painting and how am I going to fill my oil tank for this winter (meaning I am not rich) LOL!

Yeah, I know, look at how many go to the killers, etc. well, the same can be said for animal owners/breeders/puppy mills of cats and dogs, too, it's still no excuse for what YOUR personal responsibilty is to your breeding animals.

If you can't/won't keep them, and I know there are legitimate times when you can't, they deserve & have earned a humane end, like a beloved dog.

da3hoss 12 Aug 2008 9:50 AM

It is about time for this to be discussed.  I have wondered about it for a long time.  What does happen to them?  Where do they go?  Are they rideable?  Maybe during their breeding years they should be ridden & treated like a regular horse, because in the end they need to be.  

Sure hope the horse racing people really deal with this.  I mean it is about the horse isn't it?  

Rita

Rita 12 Aug 2008 9:56 AM

This is such a good subject.  I give my mares every 3rd year off.  Their bodies need a break. Most People dont though. They think they wont get them back in foal again.  I have mares I only breed once or twice no matter what kind of horse they are. I use them in between foals.  Look at the cases of Our Mims, etc.  These champion mares were cast off like dirty rags, and until someone rescued them, they could have ended up like Ferdinand.  Pretty hard to judge the Japanese when Americans do it every day, isnt it.  

Jen 12 Aug 2008 10:11 AM

I agree with all your comments,the same thing goes with all those foals born out there. Don't breed quanity try to breed quality. Have 5 mares instead of 20 mares and you can look after them in retirement. You can't change the world but you can change your small part of it. That's all anyone can do. It's easy to talk about, harder to do. Hopefully I won't get attacked cause I'm still wounded from the other day(ouch). Thanks home boys!

Wanda 12 Aug 2008 10:29 AM

I worked on a high profile stud in Newmarket, England a few years ago.

On one part of the stud we had a field of about 10 mares, known as the "Granny Paddock".  The mares in this field were all retired from breeding, some of them in their 30s, and were left to live out their lives in peace and quiet.

Most studs will do what they can for their old servants, but in my mind it is better to put a horse down once its useful life is over, rather than risk the horse falling into the wrong hands and being mistreated or sent to slaughter.

Cheryl, England 12 Aug 2008 10:29 AM

Every year you read about mares who die due to foaling complications as was mentioned in the article. One has to wonder when enough is enough. Female horses have a much rougher time of it in my opinion. After their racing careers are over, they are usually sent to be part of a brood mare band. Their bodies get no rest as they go from track to pregnancy. And so many breeders will breed a mare every year, no matter the difficulty that the mare may have had previously. Yes, mares want to be mamas, but in wild herds if a mare is barren, she can bond with other mare's foals. I think that mares are bred way too often and for too many years. And how can anybody say that a mare has ceased to be productive to farm income once she stops producing foals? Don't her past efforts count for anything? Mares who have been producing foals for their owners for years and years don't owe these people another thing. It is the other way around. The owners owe these animals a comfortable, safe retirement, and a life lived in peace.

smarie 12 Aug 2008 1:03 PM

I run an unfortunately small rescue, focusing on Thoroughbred mares. My county in Oregon is a perennial leader in horse per capita, and I hear over and over, "don't get yourself a mare".

There's no better feeling than giving these mares the love and holistic care they deserve. After all, many would be the leader of a natural herd, based on their intelligence, sensitivity, and leadership. Sure, they can be highly sensitive, with plenty of attitude, and a lot of ideas; but they are honest negotiators, and when the deal is struck you can bank it. Once recognized for who they are, love flows like a river.

The "retirement account" is a great idea. These big breeders should do that. But more outreach can be done to find homes for these mares and more can be done by people to proactively seek out mares.

Jim 12 Aug 2008 1:08 PM

In the wild and left alone, a mare will have a foal every year, unless she has a problem, which is rare, up through her late teens.  If a mare is  in great shape, and doesn't have problems foaling or raising a foal, I don't look at her birthdate, but whether or not I want her bred or not.  My old mares who are retired from breeding, for whatever reason, get to live out their lives here on the ranch, and are a great help in raising the weanlings and yearlings. We are fortunate though, to have 2,000+ acres in Wyoming, raising our own hay.  On the BLM land adjacent to us, so far this year there have been 5 horses dumped.  There were 4 mares and a gelding.  None were branded or identifiable.  The Wyoming Livestock Board picked them up.  Don't know where they go from there, they were all obviously older horses, but none were in bad shape.  

wyomingwind 12 Aug 2008 1:11 PM

Wanda, Not sure if I'm one of the home boys, I saw a lot that agreed with you like I did and I've seen you all comment back and forth, hope I'm included. Anyway, this article was very insightful and I didn't feel blindsided like I did with the other article. I think we all agree that provisions need to be made for these mares and actually any pensioned or retired horse. Like Wanda says though, and I'll take it a step further, we can only do our part for our horses and if we can afford to help others in need so be it. I saw an interesting but misinformed comment on one of the blogs about QH. This person said a single mare could have 5 foals at one time. Actually, even twins are rare. With AI and embryo transfer, the BLOODLINES can be replicated in QH with surrogates but the ONE SINGLE mare would not have 5 foals at one time. This kind of misinformation is what angers people. The other thing in this article is the use of the TB mare once safe breeding is past. The nature of the TB makes that difficult. One issue is the people who think they can take on one of these mares and then it overwhelms them with cost and maybe frustration because a lot are too hot blooded to do much with. Then the worry is will they end up in the slaughter house instead of being allowed to die with dignity or being euthanized to avoid any untreatable pain or suffering or the other infirmities of old age. Of course how many senior citizens of the human kind do we have that are shoved to the background, warehoused in sub par nursing homes and left to suffer inhumane treatment when they have given so much to the world. You may say they have a voice unlike horses, but does a person with dementia or Alzheimers have any more voice than one of these mares?  I like many others give my mares time off and have a cut off of their breeding life. Of course you have the ones that are barren for many years so that takes care of it there. I can't make others do that, are we going to create a law limiting breeding? If so then do we create a law for the people having children they can't care for? The article presents complex questions with no easy answers.

tbHORSERACINGrules 12 Aug 2008 1:13 PM

As we speak, a great old campaigner DREAMY MIMI is listed for sale on Starquine.com.  She is 22 and in foal.  She is a G1W. I remember her running and the distinctive way the race caller would say her name "Dreeeaammmmy Mimmmi"  It always stuck in my head.  Well now 19 years later here she is in a precarious situation.  Her owner/breeder made over $500,000 off her.  But even that isn't enough to guarantee her a safe home for her old age.  Just another of the many stories out there. The current owner says if he doesn't get money for her he'll breed her back.  She'll be 23.  When is enough enough?

LCM 12 Aug 2008 1:57 PM

The other point about breeding "old" mares is the commercial viability of the offspring.  So many people take an older mare who was maybe a good racemare, such as Dreamy Mimi. Unfortunately, their broodmare career does not live up to the initial hype.  A 22 mare who has never produced a blacktype horse is unfortunately worthless on the commercial market. At that point their race career is irrelevant to buyers.  Dreamy Mimi's last foal a 07 colt by Medaglia D'Oro brought a whopping $9,000.  The commercial market is very tough on older mares even IF they've produced stakes horses.  As has been posted before there is a stigma against them. Fair or not.  The point I'm trying to make is this.  SELLING A 22 YEAR OLD MARE IS WRONG. UNLESS A GOOD PERMANENT HOME IS THE DESTINATION.  It is most likely that a breeder will see Dreamy Mimi listed and think "wow a G1 winner and I can afford her".  Or worse a underfunded, regional breeder such as Warren in California will think "wow a G1 winner for one of my many uncommercial stallion".  Now hopefully someone out there will say "wow I remember Dreamy Mimi and would love to have the old girl just as she is"  GOOD LUCK MIMI.

LCM 12 Aug 2008 2:28 PM

Lady's Secret, exceptional champion, died of foaling complications at the age of 21. Relaxing (dam of Easy Goer) died of foaling complications at the age of 23. Miss Alleged champion race mare died foaling complications at 21. Klondike Kaytie (dam of Kip Deville) died foaling complications at 18. She was honored as Oklahoma broodmare of the year though so I guess that makes it all right.

The list goes on, but I will leave it there. Suffice to say, that thoroughbred mares have a much tougher and more precarious position than stallions do. When a mare is done at the track, she is bred immediately. Look at Rags to Riches. She was in foal less than a month after she retired. Unfortunately, if big breeders have their way, she will continue to bear foals for the rest of her life. Unless she is extremely lucky, like Personal Ensign or Miesque, she will die of foaling complications or face abandonment/sale when she has reached the end of her usefulness.

From my perspective, this is cruel and inhumane. Horses are not ATM machines, and even after they have reached the "end of their usefulness" they should still be taken care of with the dignity that they deserve. Even if a mare only has 9-10 foals (I still think that this is excessive) they will make a small fortune for their owners. Doesn't this entitle them to some rest?

It makes me disgusted to think how difficult these mares lives are because as soon as they have one foal they are bred back. Hence, they are simultaneously growing a foal inside as well as feeding a growing foal on the outside. By the time their foal is weaned, it is time to give birth and start the process over again.

I hate to hear the excuse that it is just a business and horses are expensive to feed when they are not productive blah blah blah. These arguments are not acceptable to justify the shoddy treatment that these mares are getting. Breeders are confusing what is expedient with what is morally appropriate. I have a hunch that breeders breed mares so often so they won't have to deal with these mares when they get older. In this scenario, they die of foaling complications, which absolves the breeder of the responsibility of caring for an aged mare AND they get another foal out of the mare. Horrifyingly, it is a win-win situation for the businessman.

As much as I love to watch the mares race, it hurts me to because these spectacular competitors such as Zenyatta, Ginger Punch, Indian Blessing, Proud Spell, Maralakana, Music Note etc because I know what their future holds when they leave the racetrack. It may not be the instant slaughter, which awaits many geldings, but it is not too much better.

Horse racing needs to clean up its act or it will continue its slide into obscurity. Horses can be a business AND be treated with respect. It is not an either or proposition.  

easygoer 12 Aug 2008 2:43 PM

LCM and easygoer. Start naming some of the mares who weren't bred into old age, who actually died or were euthanized due to the infirmities of old age. Don't say they aren't out there because they absolutely are and in far greater numbers than the ones you mentioned. LCM, you have a connection to MIMI, she's for sale, buy her, save her.

Easygoer, You hate to hear the excuse that it's expensive, fine, pony up and buy some of the mares. Always the complaints, the call for others to fix it with no real solutions and no real sacrifice.

Guys like you are the chickens in the joke about the bacon and egg breakfast: The chicken made a contribution the pig made the ultimate sacrifice." Stop telling everybody what a bad job they're doing and start doing something yourself.

BIGHORSEFAN 12 Aug 2008 3:34 PM

Well, here we go again.  Once again those who profess to love thoroughbreds discard them when their usefulness is over.  When you see the beautiful horseracing ranches and all those beautiful green pastures, shouldn't there be room for a rescue or two?  A mare (and stud for that matter) that has been used in this way would certainly appreciate a few years of peaceful grazing and warm sun as a "Thank you."  I will continue to fight for these beautiful animals unlike many of those who profess so strongly to love them.

LindaB 12 Aug 2008 3:35 PM

My opinion is that broodmares should only be bred every other year, now to some this may not sound like good financial thinking however, having 3 sons who are currently ages 23, 22, 20 I know what toll having back to back kids can take on a body, it drains you emotionally and physically. Try producing calcium for a developing fetus while nursing a current child, if it's hard on women it's hard on broodmares. Perhaps these breakdowns may have to do with a lack of good, dense bone development due to the body not being able to produce calcium like it should and supplements are not as good as the real thing. And in nature if a mare is not able to have back to back foals mother nature has a reason, the only reason mares are doing this back to back now is due to the advancement man has made in equine medicine and technology. Perhaps we need to learn a lesson from mother nature. Becoming pregnant so soon with our second child my body tried not to carry him to full term and through medicines I was able to carry him up to 7 months and through technology he was able to survive and is a brilliant young man today, however, what injustices do we do to these mares. I think that 18 should be the last time a mare is bred, I decided that I would not be having children past the age of 30, felt it was too old. Let's start thinking hard about these mares and what we are doing. Money isn't worth killing these mares over.

Julie L. 12 Aug 2008 4:00 PM

Well BigHorseFan (I detect some irony in that name) I do contribute to horse rescue organizations. I am not in a position to have a horse right now but I AM NOT THE ONE MAKING MONEY OFF OF THESE HORSES! The breeders who are making the profit have the ultimate responsibility. I do what I can with my limited resources but a horse rescue is not something that a college student, living in an apartment can feasibly do.

easygoer 12 Aug 2008 4:08 PM

BTW Bighorsefan, it is also dumb to suggest that I save these horses. I am sorry I just don't have 9 million dollars lying around where I can buy Zenyatta and save her from a lifetime of over-breeding. This is a moral decision that owners must make.

I understand that some mares are not bred to death and I applaud those owners! We need more of them, and I hope this dialogue is a step in that direction, but I am not kidding myself because the only people that can make a difference are those who are running the thoroughbred business. As a consumer, I can only "vote with my feet" and let market forces take care of these problems. As we have seen with the great decline in horse racing, people are doing just that.  

easygoer 12 Aug 2008 4:15 PM

LindaB Maybe nitpicking but those big horse ranches you see in Kentucky especially, are horse farms. Those paddocks filled with grass only support a certain amount of grazing. Some are fairly big in total at around 450 acres or so most a lot smaller. Ranches are much bigger, can support herds of horses, sheep or cattle not usually many bluegrass pastures on a ranch but if you have a couple of sections (at least one sq mile 640 acres in that sq mile) it's a small ranch out here in the West where most RANCHES are.

Like BIGHORSEFAN said to easygoer and LCM. Do you actually DO anything or do you just offer rhetoric? I'm involved in racing and I've disclosed just how many of our former mares, geldings and even a couple of studs we have let do just what you have suggested. I know for a fact that many others on here and in the industry have done the same thing. Overbrook retired Storm Cat, he grazes in his private paddock and probably isn't too happy that he doesn't still get to cover a mare but these folks gave up millions. Yes he had reduced results even so, 4 mares would have been over a million $ a year, after his reduced fee. They could've reduced the fee by more, bred more mares and still have made a huge chunk of change. They didn't. Even in his prime his covers were limited in number. Why can't you people ever see one single thing good about a sport YOU profess to love

at least a LOT of US are doing something. In fact, we have a terrible rainstorm just started here, I need to run out to help get the 30+ year old mare and the 22 y.o. the yearling etc into the barn, they have loafing sheds in their large paddocks but won't go under them. Don't realize they may get sick.

katsan 12 Aug 2008 4:17 PM

Glad someone is finally discussing this! This is one of the more despicable actions of the industry that never gets the play that other (and really lesser) "evils" do.

Blue Blue Sea 12 Aug 2008 4:26 PM

Hey BIGHORSEFAN, how dare you assume I HAVEN'T saved any mares?  In fact I have.  I would welcome any other commercial breeder out their to match the percentage of my salary that goes to keeping 2 old mares well taken care.  I wish I did have the money and space to buy DREAMY MIMI....UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T.....HOW ABOUT YOU?  One year I purchased a mare out the Keeneland January sale from a killer buyer.  He paid $500 for her and I gave him $700 the next day.  And guess what BIGHORSEFAN, that was the only $700 I had at the time!!!  I'd love to hear about some of the breeders who are making a fortune of this business.  How many of them do you think will spend their last dollar on horse that reap no benefits for them? Personally attacking me and ASSUMING you know me is unacceptable.  

LCM 12 Aug 2008 5:03 PM

Only 20 comments into the blog and it's personal already. Wow.

da3hoss 12 Aug 2008 5:14 PM

mares in the wild will breed themselves to death. And by the way most people breeding horse are not rich and do not make money. So how do you use a pension from a mares race record if she does not have one or any successful foals. Horses are bred to run and mares are born to breed.

darryl 12 Aug 2008 6:14 PM

Darryl - where did you come up with this information that mares will breed themselves to death in the wild? From the information I have gleaned from the BLM, vet reports and from wild horse experts this isn't true. Mares don't always conceive and when their bodies are just not up to reproducing will either abort or absorb the foal. Just curious where your info comes from.

Julie L. 12 Aug 2008 7:13 PM

Good to hear from Darryl....the real voice of the breeding industry.  At least he admits it!  What these debates really lead to is the question:  Is the breeding & racing of thoroughbred horses as it stands today a compassionate animal loving sport/business or isn't it?  I think it is obvious to say that in most cases it IS NOT.  For all the fans out there, it is hard to face the truths about how these horses are bred, raised, raced and sold. After I rescued the horse from the killer buyer at Keeneland I was told by the consignor I was working for "If you love horses that much you shouldn't be working in this business".  I was at first appalled he would say something like that, but many years later I realize he was only trying to warn me that this business is full of cruelty and heartbreak.  I wish I heeded his advice a long time ago.  Maybe someone out there "exploring" this business via these forums will take his advice to heart.  For the others that think they can help change things, thats great. I wish them success!

LCM 12 Aug 2008 8:42 PM

First of all a question.

Wasn't "Secretariat" the 13th foal from "Somethingroyal" ???

I understand that it's always going to be a judgement call on how many foals to allow a mare to have or how old to continue breeding her.   But, if they hadn't bred her that many times then our sport wouldn't have had it's greatest performer !!!  

Just a thought.  

Chris 12 Aug 2008 9:05 PM

The people who breed, train and own these horses do not love them, they love money.

It's such a shame that the horses are the ones that more times than not have to live the awful lives or die the awful deaths for them.

J from VA. 12 Aug 2008 9:46 PM

LCM, touchy touchy, where did I attack you. I said you obviously have a connection to Mimi you've mentioned her several times, so the way you talk on the comments I assumed you were a horse person who had a place to keep them. And actually aren't YOU judging people you don't know. Like Darryl said and you agreed with about MOST breeders NOT having the funds to make sure these mares are taken care of. I also asked you to name the mares who haven't been overbred, who have been well cared for. I never hear the positive, much easier to focus on the negative, I wanted to see if you could give me a positive at all. That is what I said to YOU. In fact I'm a handicapper, however I don't rely on it for my income, just fun, so I'm very pro horse and don't like to see any abused. I bought and support three retired race mares and a gelding with my gambling money, supplemented by my income. Weren't bred but a couple of times because they had trouble with their foals. I guess I would say it's admirable that you spent your last 700 on the mare, but what happens afterwards? You know you and a bunch of others are very quick to judge breeders, trainers, owners and any other racetracker, but when someone makes a comment to you far less judgemental you get really upset. Now you know how they feel when a big bunch are being attacked unfairly without even knowing them.

BIGHORSEFAN 13 Aug 2008 5:20 AM

I have jobs for a bunch of you who claim to LOVE horses and berate those of us who train, breed and own race horses and say we don't love them. It doesn't pay much because we take care of them ourselves, but you're welcome to share our beans and tortilla's and green chile. Guess what,the majority of you wouldn't last a month. Plus you all love to beat us up too much then of course you all get upset when you are called out. TALK IS CHEAP you all read, listen to negativity and judge us based on your assumptions. J from VA, how dare you make a blanket statement like that, that is just showing your ignorance. That's like saying all single parents are bad parents and don't love their kid because they cost more than they should and the kids can't earn money. Do you realize how ignorant you sound? More times than not they live awful lives? Our horses live better than we do, they NEVER go without, even when we do. I don't know why I bother, you all love the sound of your own voices so much it's pointless. The only reality is the scenario you all have built in your minds regardless of the actuality of it all. That's the reason I love my horses, they have horse sense and aren't judgemental, maybe because they know how much we love them and what good care we take of them.

katsan 13 Aug 2008 5:35 AM

easygoer, The irony in my name is that I'm 6'3" not especially heavy but I love the ponies. I'm a handicapper, I'll admit. But I'm a benevolent one who isn't about the bottom line, I'd be in the poorhouse if I looked for it in horse racing. Even when I couldn't bet I'd handicap and go watch them run, still do now. I know a lot of race track people, own and support some retired ponies. Just met a wonderful trainer/breeder at the Spa who commented on the blogs. He does love his horses, has a bunch of retirees on his farm, showed us some pictures. He got so beat up he finally left, even though he's the kind of good guy we need on here. Yes the BREEDERS are making the profit, sometimes and I agree they are most responsible some aren't responsible and some of them do take care of their horses very well, I know a few of those personally as well. Good for you doing what you can, good luck in college, a grad myself. However, preaching to people calling them out and putting them down, telling people how to live their lives isn't taken too well by people when the person doing the telling is just reading about it. You say it's ridiculous to suggest you save these horse, well isn't it just as ridiculous that you demand that everyone in racing take care of every horse out there? As far as 9 mil, it's not that expensive you can do a lot for less than that. No it's not cheap but if you are going to tell everyone how to live their life you better be ready to back it up. I really wish you could get the chance to go to some of these farms in KY or meet some of the good people, they might show you that a lot of them are trying different things and are helping not hurting. Being in college, I'm not sure how old you are but I assume you are old enough to know that there's bad and good both and trust me the people reading this stuff are usually the good guys who actually live horse racing life every day, what you talk about and they try to do whatever they can to do their part. As far as protesting and not supporting racing. Well a lot of tracks are free to get in to and if you don't bet, you aren't really supporting racing, watching yes but not supporting it. Concessions? a small percentage goes to the track,

Julie, I like your points but like someone on another blog kept driving home is that horses and people can't be compared easily. Actually humans can't even be compared easily. My 80 yr old gran had 4 kids, the first 2 a year apart, then 4 years later then 10 years after that. Much harder time between the second and third, the third one nearly died gran was ill too. The accident 10 years later, gran 37 y.o. (43 years ago not too common for an older mother Easy peasy was the way she put it, wished they’d all been so easy to carry and deliver). Gran looks and acts 10 years younger than her friends who had 2 children 3 years apart before age 30, every one is different, just like the mares.

Oh and guess what, just like you talked about mares in the wild, disputing Darryl, same holds true for those in the breeding shed.

BIGHORSEFAN 13 Aug 2008 5:53 AM

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any statistical evidence to back it up.  It would be interesting if someone could obtain reliable data to actually see how many mares die of foaling complications.  I live and work in Lexington, KY in the horse industry and in my experience its very rare for a mare to die from foaling complications.  It DOES happen occassionally, but it's definitely NOT the usual outcome of breeding old mares.

I invite anyone to come out here and show me the horses living horrible lives and being abused by the breeding industry.  I see hundreds of horses every day - mares, foals, yearlings and stallions and what I see are fat healthy animals with beautiful shiny haircoats and a twinkle in their eye.  The mares LOVE their foals.  The horses receive excellent care - routine vaccines and deworming, proper nutrition, etc.  If the horse has an injury or other problem, they receive treatment for whatever is ailing them.  Even the mares that have a foal every year are fat and happy, not used up and abused like some you are saying.

I work for 3 different farms and they all have retired mares there.  One farm has a huge field full of them along with a young mare that has a chromosomal abnormality and can not produce foals.  She has a home for life.  Another farm has a blind mare and when she foals, they put a bell on the foal's halter and both are happy.

The vast majority of farms in this area are not the big fancy farms owned by the ultra rich.  Most of the farms here are owned by normal everyday people that happen to love horses and want to make a living with them. It's not an easy life - it's full of hard work 7 days a week. In every business there are good people and bad people but the majority of people i've met and worked with here in Lexington are good people that care about their animals.

I also want to mention that in my experience more horses die of colic than complications from foaling.  Other more common causes of death are laminitis, trauma, neurologic disease, and the occassional lightning strike.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you what i see in Lexington.  Again, if you disagree then you are welcome to come here and show me all the abused animals you say are here in the breeding industry.

  • Scot's reply:  Thanks, catnip lane, for an upbeat response.  It's easy to get caught up in negatives but I think your positive comments reflect the general feeling of most of those who are involved in the day-to-day care of horses. Most Thoroughbreds in breeding operations receive unmatched care during their whole lives. On farms large and small, most caretakers are there because they love horses. We all need to be aware of problems within the industry, but we should also celebrate the good that happens every day at Thoroughbred farms across the country and around the world.
catnip lane 13 Aug 2008 9:18 AM

tbHORSERACINGrules: If you are a voice of reason you are a home boy! No worries thanks for the backup.

Wanda 13 Aug 2008 10:14 AM

Scot: Your in the office early do you ever sleep? Have a nice day everyone and let's think happy thoughts okay.Man if a guy knew what really went on in the world you'd never leave your house!

Wanda 13 Aug 2008 10:26 AM

Here's a perfect example of how "loved" these mares are.  Does anyone remember this consignment in February 07?  Just look at the names and the ages of these GREAT OLD MARES.  Wheres the love there?

FAYETTE FARMS, AGENT---Barn 6C-E

Broodmares

152 Galunpe (IRE) 1983 b.m by He Loves Me--Semantic

164 Heaven’s Nook 1984 b.m by Great Above--Nook

188 Laday 1982 b.m by Lyphard--Sale Day

205 Mepache 1981 b.m by Iron Constitution--Nowmepache

249 Proud Encore 1986 b.m by Tri Jet--Forest Murmurs

271 Setting 1983 b.m by Exclusive Native--Round Pearl

298 Syrian Summer 1984 b.m by Damascus--Special Warmth

305 Tis Michelle 1985 gr.m by Native Charger--Noble Royalty

307 Topicount 1985 ch.m by Private Account--Hot Topic

323 Victorian Village 1985 ch.m by L’Emigrant--Sir Ivor’s Sorrow

332 Alydariel 1983 ch.m by Alydar--Crimson Saint

355 Bye the Bye 1984 dkb/b.m by Balzac--Near Bye Lady

LCM 13 Aug 2008 10:29 AM

Hey Scot, "getting caught up in the negatives?".  Really? Or addressing the harsh realities? My target isn't the smaller breeder who tends to have one on one interaction with the horses they own.  It is the larger breeding operations and owners that are detached from the individual animals.  They are simply a commodity and when the commodity stops producing like MEPACHE did they face a questionable future. It took Royce Clay in OK to ensure MEPACHE a safe retirement, not the multimillionaires in Lexington that prospered off her! Thats not getting caught up in negatives it's just the reality. This INDUSTRY needs to implement a better safety net for both racing and breeding animals PERIOD. It's time for EVERYONE to be responsible.  That includes the sales company who stood to profit off of sending those old mares "down the road".

LCM 13 Aug 2008 10:46 AM

Scot thanks, I also agree with catnip lane, actually the last 4 comments support the views of most horse racing people and once again, how sad they have to be pushed into a corner to defend themselves. Then when they question you all, they suffer further abuse. Nowhere did any of them call you murderers, abusers, cruel, callous and money hungry, yet YOU with the opposing view are the ones who get so upset when questioned about your comments. The breeders, owners and trainers that post on here echo the same sentiment over and over, They love their horses, yet that is questioned. I guess I tend to believe in the good in people and like catnip, katsan, Wanda, tbHorseracingrules, BIG and others and I have seen it first hand. All of them and I as well have said to go to the KY horse farms, take a tour, see if you can go on a tour of the backside. You'll see what all of us are talking about.And as we keep saying there's good and bad in everything but negativity sells better. Some factions have admitted the main reason they target horse racing is because of it's high profile, big money and it gets the attention of the public. If this kind of negativity and attacks keep up they can move the focus elsewhere because that won't be true. What's really disturbing about this is this is published on a reputable horse racing publication and people who read on an infrequent basis, take it for the gospel, of course maybe that and the abolution of racing is what the real agenda is for those who comment negatively and attack the lifeblood of the human element of the racing industry.  

Bradgm 13 Aug 2008 11:18 AM

Here's a thought. If you feel so strongly on this subject get a group together and channel all that energy towards making a differince.Pay attention to the headlines on here and other sites and try to be active on this issue.Make yourselves known in a appropiate way and if you talk reasonably people will listen. That's the Canadian way and I'm sure it works in the US too.

Wanda 13 Aug 2008 11:53 AM

LCM, i looked up the sales results on the list of aged mares and every one of them was withdrawn from the sale.  Does anyone out there know what happened to them?  I'll try to contact the consignor to see what the deal is.  I PERSONALLY retire my old mares and let them live out their lives.  But, in defense of this - i'm sure i'm stepping off the edge into deep water now - at least they spent significant money and put them into a sale where they had a chance to find a real home.  The alternative would have been to take them to the stockyard....  

If i find something out from the consignor i'll post it here.

catnip lane 13 Aug 2008 1:10 PM

katsan - you are right it is nick picking!  I am not in Kentucky and I know that there is space for a rescue or two at these "locations."  It is all about the horse and the personal responsibility of owners, breeders, trainers, etc.  Too many are ending up in slaughter and they don't deserve that.  But anyone who is a true lover and protector of these animals who are willing to give us their all, can nick pick any time.

LindaB 13 Aug 2008 3:00 PM

Wanda, great suggestion. LCM what Scot is talking about is this ABSOLUTE refusal to acknowledge that anyone in racing does anything good EVER, especially the big money people. Why is that? Myself I believe there is good and evil in everyone I just don't believe that every single wealthy horse breeder is as evil as you suggest. Everything is not black and white. Someone pointed out the great care that Storm Cat still receives after being pensioned to his private armed guard protected paddock, others on here and the other blog have detailed what they do to care for their retirees, a lady talked about cutting up apples to feed to her finicky retired race mare, other's have related how they care for theirs and I bet they'd send you pictures if they could but still you only search out the negative, Why is that? Does NOTHING positive ever occur in your life is it filled only with negatives? No, then realize that is the same case with these people you and the posters like you keep taking to task. I asked you to start naming the mares who are cared for aren't overbred etc you still want to focus on what YOU perceive as showing how bad people are so you look up aged mares consigned to a sale, which a person who actually works on the farms you speak of after telling you firsthand how well cared for they are, told you those mares were out of the sale. The 'consignor' you worked for was probably right, he may have seen a tendency towards negativity even then.  Man, all that wasted energy on negativity, yes the negative always takes more energy than the positive well except in a battery.  

BIGHORSEFAN 13 Aug 2008 3:14 PM

Re productivity of mares living in the wild...

Mares normally cycle in the spring, when the days get longer, and then taper off as the summer ends.  So a mare "naturally" wouldn't be breedable in the winter months in most regions (Jan-March).  That leaves April-August.  With an 11+ month gestation, the average mare cannot produce another foal within 12 months... it usually takes her another full cycle after foaling.  So after a few years, she will probably not be bred since her last foal will be so late in the year.  In modern "captive" breeding, the mares may be induced to cycle in early February to produce a foal in January (to have the biggest yearling on the block two years later).  If she doesn't take, she's short-cycled back into season using drugs.  Follicles and receptivity are monitored, to maximize the chances for conception.  Regumate is given to help mares with low-level pregnancy hormones sustain the pregnancy.  Mares are bred back on the foal heat to try to move their foaling dates up in the year.  So the modern TB breeder is much more likely to achieve a successful pregnancy for a mare every year than is a wild mare.  This is why the domestic mare may rarely get a year off.

That said, I haven't heard of too many oft-bred mares dying from calcium deficiency.  Usually mares' delicate reproductive system will start to break down and they simply won't get in foal (or be able to retain a pregnancy) any more after a certain point.  

Also, complications from foaling are not necessarily because mares are old or have produced many foals.

Now, as far as the issue of responsibility for retired/pensioned horses goes, who's your nominee-- the breeder (perhaps several owners back from the present), anybody who made money from the horse (if anybody did), the last owner (who may have claimed a horse right before it injured itself permanently), the final breeder (who picked up the 22-yo in foal at the sale)?  

It's hard to assign.  For now it seems to rest on the shoulders of those who recognize the need when they see it and step in.  

Dawna 13 Aug 2008 3:14 PM

Bighorsefan - I agree that comparing people and animals is not an easy thing but perhaps we should allow common sense to come into play and that tells me that after observing nature and how my body reacted to back to back pregnancies that perhaps we should reconsider year after year breeding of these broodmares. Common sense tells me that this will eventually take it's toll on the mare and the developing fetus and perhaps in some way to the foal that is currently nursing and maybe not receiving all the nutrients it needs from it's mother due to her body trying to keep up with both foals. It's just a thought.

Julie L. 13 Aug 2008 3:23 PM

LindaB,

Then I guess I can nitpick til the cows come home. On my journey out to gather some mares and fillies in from the paddocks to the barn more to avoid the lightning than the torrential downpour which they love, one of the yearlings took a chunk out of my upper arm. Oh well not the first time, we had a gelding we bought at a sale, probably headed to the killers and he was not a TB, just a backyard horse. He was actually mean and chomped down on my arm, which broke then tried to kick me in the head, nearly lost my arm too, bloodclots and tissue damage from the bite. He got yelled at, but nothing more we figured he was just jumpy. We kept him for years, made a saddle horse out of him but I can tell you if he even breathed within ten feet of me I jumped a foot. We live in the wild west, open spaces lots of big ranches (18,000 acres and up.) We have some beautiful farms here too. Still very much of an agrarian society out here. Oh what a dream to own a KY horse farm, although we have a nice family owned horse/alfalfa farm up near the big city so I know how much grazing a pasture can take.

katsan 13 Aug 2008 3:33 PM

Hip hip hooray for Dawna, well said. Now be ready to get slammed, no one believes the facts.

Scot on my compliment to the last 4 poster, I meant the last 4 before and including catnip lane.

Bradgm 13 Aug 2008 3:46 PM

Julie, Yes and a good thought it was. My point is just as all humans are different so are all horses. Look at the women who have 14,17 and even 22 children and they have a thought process. But I'm not about to judge them.

BIGHORSEFAN 13 Aug 2008 4:32 PM

In the wild...they breed every year.  

At our place...when the mare "tells us" she's done, the old girl lives a life of comfort and luxury.  

BTJake 13 Aug 2008 5:00 PM

Thank you BIGHORSEFAN, I enjoy when two people can have a good discussion that allows the exchange of thoughts and ideas. Perhaps a study can be done to determine which female line can hold up to the rigors of yearly breeding and which need time inbetween. We are always studing the sire lines and yet we do not seem to give much regard, that we should, to the strong female lines. We know which produces the blue hens lets see which produces the strong broodmare. What are your thoughts?

Julie L. 13 Aug 2008 5:31 PM

Julie, Excellent idea. I really think someone probably should have thought about that by now, maybe they have though. I did hear a big trainer speak on how almost all studs are prolific and it's the mare he focuses on when buying a yearling. Like how durable was the mare, what was her race record ie how many times did she run and not just if she won but how she ran, her other progeny and their durability etc it was a really interesing video. Maybe they should start looking at a dam of dams just as they do a sire of sires.

BIGHORSEFAN 13 Aug 2008 11:12 PM

BIGHORSEFAN - couldn't agree more. And thank you, again it's nice having constructive conversations.

Julie L. 15 Aug 2008 1:42 PM

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