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German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

We talked a bit about German stallion Monsun in a previous post about 3-year-old sensation Kamsin (GER)

Kamsin

Since then, Kamsin has gone on to capture two German group I contests - both at the same 1-1/2 miles as his Deutsches Derby (Ger-I) win in July.  He fell short in the Qatar Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (Fr-I) in October -- won by Zarkava (IRE) -- but has generally proved himself exceptional, with graded wins on most of Germany's major tracks.  At only 3 years old, his late-maturing bloodlines would point towards even more success in coming years.

Kamsin's lineage incorporates an impressive line of leading German sires - his grandsire is Monsun (German general sires leader in 2002, '04, and '06), his great-grandsire is Konigsstuhl (1988, 1994, 1996), and his great-great-grandsire is Dschingis Khan (1979 and 1981).  Further, he's inbred to Surumu (1985-86 and '89-92), the sire of Acatenango (leader in all odd years from 1993 to 2001).

Kamsin has bloodlines that undeniably "click" in German Thoroughbred pedigrees. But I'm still holding out for him in the States - and think the perfect first introduction would be Breeders' Cup 2009.  A Classic win would give Kamsin about the best chance for U.S. breeders to give him an opportunity at stud.  To Kamsin's owner Stall Blankenese I issue this plea:  Please consider the 2009 Breeders' Cup for Kamsin.  Remember it will be run again on the turf-like, European-favoring Santa Anita synthetic track.  Bring German breeding to an international audience and expose America to a promising young Dschingis Khan-line stallion.  Skip the Arc in '09 and head to California instead.

Introducing the sound, stamina-oriented blood of Kamsin would be a great long-term benefit to the American Thoroughbred.

Manduro

Breeders in Ireland and the U.K. have the opportunity to tap into similar lines already, though.  Manduro (GER) (SRO) stood his first stud season at Darley's Kildangan Stud in 2008.   Manduro is a son of Monsun, while Kamsin is a grandson of the same stallion.  Interestingly, both Manduro and Kamsin come from the damsire line of Northern Dancer.  (I briefly checked into this nick and noticed that several other stallion sons of Monsun fit the pattern, including Arcadio (GER) and Shirocco (GER), while Speedmaster (GER) hails from Northern Dancer's sire, Nearctic, but through Nasrullah.  Worth watching to see how that affinity develops, as Monsun is still an active sire in Germany and should have ample opportunity with Northern Dancer-line mares.)

Manduro raced and won from 2 to 5, though never more than eight times in a year.  He racked up 10 wins and 7 additional places from 18 starts to finish just shy of the $2 million earnings mark.  Sixteen of those money finishes came in stakes - 15 of them group races - and Manduro claimed group I wins at Royal Ascot, Deauville, and Longchamp racecourses.

Assuming Kamsin runs another couple of years, Manduro's first crop might just hit the tracks in Europe before the Deutches Derby winner retires to stud.  If Manduro's first foals impress, I'll be even more eager to see a male-line representative of Monsun come to stand in the U.S.

Here's hoping.

22 Comments:

Good to see that someone is interested in improving the American Thoroughbred, as opposed to repeating the cycle of breeding unsound horses back to unsound horses.

Dodo 01 Dec 2008 3:12 AM

I can also point out that Kamsin/Manduro/Monsun represent the Bahram line of Blandford/Swynford -- a sire line that was recently re-introduced to U.S. breeders through Seattle Fitz (ARG) (SRO), who represents the Blenheim II line.  (We've discussed Seattle Fitz in previous blog posts.)

sgillies 01 Dec 2008 10:04 AM

Germany is well ahead of the States in a number of areas regarding racing. Stallions that ran on medication are unable to stand at stud in Germany is but one example. Smart (or should I say Schmardt)! The core of the breed is much more sound in Germany.

If only the leaders of our Industry were a bit more enlightened.

c bea 01 Dec 2008 10:05 AM

German lines have made their mark in South America as notorious providers of stamina to the gene pool in this part of the world. As sample we could name Orsenigo whose influence has been tremendous in Brazil and Peru.

timurlenk 01 Dec 2008 10:28 AM

I think it would be very unlikely that Kamsin would receive enough support from American breeders to justify the exercise.  A German  G1 stakes winner at 1 1/2 miles with a pedigree that is for the most part unrecognizable to the average American breeder just won't work.  This was pretty much covered in back in a July blog on the same horse.  I tried to bring Acatenango to Kentucky after he was retired.  The only farm that took a close look at him was Lanes End.

No disrespect, but it is easy for the arm chair breeders to slag breeders who actually put up their money, time and a lot work to bring what we hope will be successful on the race track so as to improve our mares and the value of future yearlings and generate enough attention in the sales ring to pay down on  the debt accumulated in the 24 months it takes to bring a yearling to market. So there is just too much risk to return. Something like 70% of all yearlings that have gone through the ring over the last 5 plus years have either lost money or have barely broke even.  I have a feeling that a lot of the "hobby breeders" who have contributed to this mess will be sorted out in the next couple years.

Horsetrader 01 Dec 2008 10:35 AM

I agree w/ Horsetrader. And let's be realistic. If Kamsin came to the US & turned out to be a fantastic sire, with 10% SWs to foals, where would the 90% of the other foals run? How many 10 furlong maiden races on the turf are there? When was the last time you saw a 9 furlong on the turf non-winner of 2 allowance? That is what happened with Northern Spur. To have a horse like Kamsin here, there have to be races at all levels for the type of foals he is likely to sire. At this time, there are nothing but G1 races for offspring of Kamsin. And sorry, you can't built a stallion career on less than 10% of your offspring.

Elaine 01 Dec 2008 1:25 PM

Maybe the USA will be interested if the Ouija Board-Monsun foal runs well here. She is still popular in the USA.

MRO 01 Dec 2008 3:26 PM

MARES...MARES...MARES

GERMAN-BRED MARES

HORSETRADER...BRING OVER A DOZEN MARES

THEY'LL BE PRODUCERS...AND, I'M CONFIDANT, AT ALL DISTANCES.  THEY MAY HAVE TO RENAME THE "MOTHER GOOSE" THE MOTHER GOOSESTEP.

NEVERKICKYOURDOG 01 Dec 2008 8:36 PM

I agree with Horsetrader.  The only reason Manduro is supported is because everyone hopes Mr Fergusson is going to be there bidding for weanling or yearling.  Would only have a chance if he stood at Darley I'd say.

De Mac 01 Dec 2008 10:22 PM

Anything that will get us away from Mr. P and Northern Dancer is good in my books.

Given the appealing outcrosses provided by Monsun and his sons, what about sons of Indian Ridge and In Reality sireline, which trace back to the exceedingly rare Byerly Turk and Godolphin Arabian sirelines, respectively? Shouldn't breeders look to them as well?

Catherine 02 Dec 2008 12:08 AM

Successful NY sire Raffies Majesty (Cormorant) has Surumu as his broodmare sire . A second line dam side line shows Dschingis Khan. Raffies Majesty has sired the last 3 winners of the NY Empire Classic .

Bernie 02 Dec 2008 12:49 AM

As a student of history, it's nice to know the *Bahram sire line is still alive and going well with Kamsin, Manduro and Monsun, and that the *Blenheim II sire line has returned to the United States with Seattle Fitz (whom I have a high regard for, and saw quite a bit of when he was racing).

Saxtonhill 02 Dec 2008 4:20 AM

After reading everyones comments, how about this.  The Jockey club or a group of farms get together and lease some of these German stallions for use in America.  have we all fogotten Ribot.  he was only supposed to be a lease and look how he has worked out.  We don't need to own these stallions, just use them for 2 or 3 seasons.  If they have not proven themselves by then, start again.  Something must be done about the shortening of the American Thoroughbred...distance ability!  Big Brown was bred to go 1 1/2 miles, but his feet were not.  As for names you can't recognize in the pedigree......who cares.  When they can't run, they can't read their pedigree.  Hybred Vigor is what is needed in a bad way with our gene pool here in the USA, and we better not wait to long to improve it.  Otherwise, nothing will be able to go even 1 1/8 miles, much less 1 1/4.  I really don't want to see the Derby, Preakness and Belmont become two 1 1/8 mile races and a 1 1/4 mile race.

Robert 02 Dec 2008 11:01 AM

Quit interesting to read all this from my homeland view at Germany. But German horses are made late-maturing, staying 12f and preferring soft turf-surface. As long as US racing can’t offer this, German horses will most probably fail in the US – apart from a possible miracle out of an outcross-breeding. By the way: there has never been a US-stallion imported into Germany that made any notable mark in “our breed” over here.

It’s not really a surprise that Monsun did well with mares who have “much” Northern Dancer-blood. Monsun is out of the two leading German lines and can’t be improved with the homeland gene pool – so Northern Dancer offers a welcome and common sense outcross. Let’s hope, Manduro, Shirocco and Schiaparelli will do well in GB/IRE-tb-breeding – what a wonderful success this would be. And don’t forget: German horse have still to win Europe’s prestige-races as the Arc, the King George & Queen Elizabeth Stakes, or the Epsom Derby – these are the real targets of leading German owners and breeders.

parlo 06 Dec 2008 2:10 PM

En Fuego (El Prado), out of Meridiana (GER), finished a close 3rd today @ Aq . Open allowance 1 mile turf test .

bernie 06 Dec 2008 4:49 PM

@ parlo

Hurricane Run was bred in Germany by Gestüt Ammerland and won the King George and the Arch.

His Sire was Montjeu (Ire) and the Mare was Hold On (Ger) out of Surumu (Ger). .

Frank 07 Dec 2008 9:56 PM

@ Frank,

that's right, I was that day at Longchamp. But the fans over here want "more German" than a BMS in a horse raised in Bavaria and racing for an Irish owner. :wink:

So let's hope Baron Ullmann can accomplish his live-time ambition in the years to come. After the set-backs with Shirocco, Manduro and perhaps Getaway this year, he deserves to own an Arc-winner. And actually he is the only German owner-breeder who is capable to win a race like this.

Or perhaps Sheikh Mohammed will buy a German horse to win the Arc even before a German owner will do so with his homebred.

parlo 08 Dec 2008 5:30 PM

Two very similar sires that stand on two oposite ends of the continent are very closly related to the influential German horses that we are debating.

Lanciano stands in Alberta for $1000 and Raffies Majesty in New York for $3000.

Raffie has been very impressive so far and Lancano's first foals are yearlings in 2009. Hopefully they will influence the NA market one mare at a time! It's to bad the NA market can get there mares covered for next to nothing when in Europe the same close cousins of Hurricane run and Shirocco can ask a premium.  

Diana 09 Jan 2009 10:27 PM

IM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS, BUT I THINK

ARISTOPHANTIES, THE SIRE OF ROUND TABLE WAS BRED IN GERMANY

LEAVETHATREESQUIRLEALONE 21 Jan 2009 12:13 PM

This stallion's early AEI ratings put him in with some lofty company. Combine his rare sire line with unusual German bloodline influences on the dam side and this is a stallion whose pedigree is worth a closer review.

The Five-Cross Files 25 Mar 2009 10:55 AM

Bernardini's big numbers might steal the headlines, but rare appearances by sires from Germany and Australia are worth a second look.

The Five-Cross Files 11 Aug 2009 11:06 AM

Armed with a photo and a few clues, can you identify famous Thoroughbreds from the past? Here are six oldies that will challenge your memory -- and your research skills.

The Five-Cross Files 05 Nov 2009 8:57 AM

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