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Who Should Peppers Visit? -- Suggest a Mating for the Record-breaking Thoroughbred Mare.

A week or so ago we had an interesting post on this site from Scot Gillies in regards to a "dream mating" for your favorite mare. There was a lot of ideas, some of them very well reasoned, from a number of readers with some suggestions for various mares to visit various stallions. In some type of continuation from that post, I read with interest today that the owners of the record-breaking Peppers Pride are weighing up their options as to whom they breed this undefeated mare to in 2009.

The owner of Peppers Pride, Mr Allen, has suggested that a son of leading sire A.P. Indy (TrueNicks,SRO) would be the way to go for Peppers Pride. He probably knows his mare and the family better than most and it is a fair suggestion indeed as A.P Indy and his sons have proven themselves highly compatible with mares by sons and grandsons of Fappiano. Desert God, the sire of Peppers Pride, is nothing if not royally bred -- however, as he is not only by Fappiano but he is out of the great Blush With Pride, there could be some interesting inbreeding taking place with stallions that carry this blood in their pedigree.

For mine, I would like to see her visit Pulpit or better still his son Sky Mesa (TrueNicks,SRO) who is an A.P Indy stallion that has shown a real affinity for Mr Prospector-line mares. Sky Mesa is out of a mare by Storm Cat, which adds a little value to the pedigree for other reasons. Back in her pedigree, Peppers Pride is inbred to the mare Boola Brook and I think that Sky Mesa, with both Nijinsky II and Storm Cat in his pedigree, should help. Peppers Pride also has lashings of La Troienne, the great matriarch of Sky Mesa's female family. The mating is an A+ with TrueNicks.

So again, I turn it over to you. I thought it might be fun to hear what you think would be a good mating for her debut season. Alan did a review of her pedigree a little while ago, and the article provides interesting background information that might be helpful. Please share your results (and any other feedback) in the comments section below. The full roster of stallions with complimentary TrueNicks reports can be found here.

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133 Comments:

I ran some of my favorite horses (pedigree or race-wise) through this database.  Devil His Due and Indian Charlie both had A+ ratings. I like Devil His Due because of the reported soundness and durability on the track of his offspring though I know he isn't as marketable as an A.P. Indy foal.  I would be curious to see how a horse like Horse Chestnut would do?  I believe he is a Sadler's Wells grandson...

pharlap 16 Dec 2008 4:03 PM

Pharlap, I totally agree with you. I love Devil His Due for Pepper's Pride. He's versatile and always has a nice percentage of winners each year. It doesn't hurt he ran over 40 times. Lord knows we need more soundness bred into this game!  I was looking at other horses, and Dehere sort of popped out at me. I haven't checked the nick [and I don't really plan on it!] If you get a mare pregnant by him, you'll have a runner! No ands ifs or buts. Irregardless of what the nick says, I think he'd work with pretty much any mare.

Anna 16 Dec 2008 4:18 PM

My pick would be Smarty Jones, Peppers pride is a Speed Horse, Smarty will give her the speed she needs from the Gone West side as well as Speed plus stamina from the inreality side through Smile.

Smarty is a young Stallion that has not proven himself as a sire yet, but breeding to any Stallion is risky and rarely do you get what you want from the mating.

If I have a second choice it would be Tiznow.  

James Whiteside 16 Dec 2008 4:25 PM

CITY ZIP A++, DONERAILE COURT A++, ORIENTATE A++, CONGAREE A++.  TAPIT & JOHANNESBURG GET HONORABLE MENTION WITH A'S. I'M JUST AN AMATUER, I DO THIS FOR FUN.

mdfanofracing 16 Dec 2008 4:36 PM

I ran a couple of my favorites and came up with Rahy and Rahy's Secret both came up with A++. Also checked Curlin and Big Brown. Curlin came out with a C and Big Brown a B+. But maybe, just maybe the current horse not the bloodline would be a major winner.  

Les 16 Dec 2008 4:51 PM

How would Quiet American or his son Real Quiet do?

SCAMPABOUT@aol.com 16 Dec 2008 4:54 PM

Lez, i would also like to see Curlin go with PP. The horse may not be the fastest, but i think it be a pretty durable and versitle horse.

LDP 16 Dec 2008 4:59 PM

True Nicks rates A++ for ANY GIVEN SATURDAY and any Distorted Humor/Fappiano cross. Apparent thumbs down on sprinters Street Boss and Cherokee Run with Blushing Groom bottom or top. Really bad rating for Speightstown.  All stallions checked except Cherokee Run are Mr Prospector line. Disparity in Mr P line nicks puzzling and why lineage is fun to study.

Anyway, ANY GIVEN SATURDAY.

outsider 16 Dec 2008 5:04 PM

I think Unbridleds Song would be a great mating. It would be like putting Serena Williams with Kevin Garnett. It would be a mating that would develop a whole lot of versatility, both speed and stamina, and heart and athleticism.

Marshall 16 Dec 2008 6:30 PM

Peppers Pride should be mated with Curlin.

Marie Henson 16 Dec 2008 6:37 PM

Did not do any nicks, but what about Empire Maker.

He is throwing very athletic and long looking babies. They can run on anything, and win early.

With her speed, and his ability to pass along stamina, might be a good match.

Joe 16 Dec 2008 6:46 PM

I checked Fusaichi Pegasus and whilst only a C rating it did show the best five horses all being group 1 winners. So why only a C rating? Was really interested in what his son Haradasun rated as a mating or the best of the Aussie Danehills?.

Unfortunately I dont have the time today to run a few more test matings.

Steve M

Steve 16 Dec 2008 6:47 PM

I would find a son or grandson of Saint Ballado. Everytime I see a horse of his line run, they run well and usually win/place. I know its probably not what the owner is looking for, but if I ever start my own stable up, I will find lines tracing back to Saint Ballado. I dont depend on E-Nicks. Some of the best horses I have seen have either come out of the wood work or not even considered a top notch breeding. Its always a chance you take breeding a mare to a stallion, the foal could be a total flop or a decent racer. Its all about chance.

Cate 16 Dec 2008 6:56 PM

I think she would be good with Street Cry. Many of his foals are doing amazing on the track. Just look at Zenyatta.

Kimmy Storino 16 Dec 2008 6:57 PM

If looking for a AP Indy cross I like Pulpit or his sons Sky Mesa & Corinthian all get A ratings.  Yes It's true has A++ and Van Nistelrooy from the Storm Cat line gets an A++.  An interesting cross would be Rock Hard Ten not the highest Nick rating but a number of top notch runners from this cross.

hardlyhatful 16 Dec 2008 7:26 PM

GIANTS CAUSEWAY, TIZNOW, FORESTRY, STREET CRY, STREET SENSE, and CURLIN, would be my top picks.

christy tate 16 Dec 2008 7:50 PM

How about Valid Expectation?  Right nearby in Texas so she can go home to New Mexico to foal with no trouble;  "A" nick; and top line thru Man O'War to Godolphin Arabian!  And a good price too.  

pfun 16 Dec 2008 8:00 PM

Quite a few suggestions being made above put Mr Prospector over Mr Prospector (Fu Peg, Smarty Jones, Curlin, Empire Maker etc). This invaribly results in a poor TrueNick rating as this has been tried a number of times with very limited success. There are a few exceptions to the rule though that are certainly worth consideration.

brogers 16 Dec 2008 8:03 PM

They refused to take her from New Mexico to race, what makes anyone think they'll take her from New Mexico to breed?  That'd be ridiculous.  Her crummy genetics will meet Pro Prado's crummy genetics...

Art 16 Dec 2008 8:04 PM

If he wants freshman sires how about Majestic Warrior or Henerythenavigator. Those would be my to picks

JP 16 Dec 2008 9:23 PM

This is one of my favorite horses of all time, because my name is Pepper, and so I had to take part in this discussion.  What about Van Nistelrooy (A++), or Powerscourt (A)?  I'm a big fan of Request for Parole, but apparently that wouldn't work out (there was a C or D rating).

Chase 16 Dec 2008 9:39 PM

I like Sky Mesa, also, for the reasons you've given about pedigree and because of the success his offspring have been having. He's a young stallion so his fee is more reasonable than some, a breeder would be able to make a profit, and I think his fee will only be going up, especially if he has another year like this one, with Sky Diva, Storm Mesa and others.

Karen in Indiana 16 Dec 2008 9:41 PM

WITH THAT NAME--PEPPERS PRIDE--IT WOULD BE FITTING IF THE MATING WERE TO BE PLANNED BY TRAINER FRANK PASSERO!

IN ADDITION TO THE PEPPER LINKAGE, PASSERO ALSO HAD QUITE A WIN STREAK.

NEVERKICKYOURDOG 16 Dec 2008 9:43 PM

P.S. Art, if her and her record are what you get with crummy genetics, I'll take it any day. She's been racing well and is retiring sound from a pretty good schedule.

Karen in Indiana 16 Dec 2008 9:44 PM

I like Smuck In, son of Montbrook. No Inbreeding thru five gens. It's closer than KY. He is putting winners on the ground. Anyway there u have it. Have fun taking stabs at this.

todd 16 Dec 2008 10:02 PM

Peppers Pride is a wonderful mare.  I would love to see her go to Tisnow.  He had 3 babies in 1 breeders cup race, has that ever been done before?  We have just begun to hear about Tisnow babies, bring on a new one.  If not Tisnow then I would think Street Cry would be a great choice.  

Beav 16 Dec 2008 10:18 PM

more than ready, heart and speed

rae 16 Dec 2008 10:20 PM

Midnight Lute is an "A" nick as well.

Karen 16 Dec 2008 10:37 PM

It does not matter which sire is selected, she will not produce a good horse.

Negatives:

Mr. Prospector's grandsons are poor broodmare sires.

Most high earning mares are poor producers. When was the last time a mare that earned $1M produced anything of worth?

Unbeaten mares with her body of work are extremely poor producers i.e, Personal Ensign 13 Starts, 13 Wins; Kinscem  54 Starts, 54 Wins

Too many starts.

m palmer 16 Dec 2008 10:55 PM

I would think that Discreet Cat or Johannesburg would be a great mix with Peppers Pride.  Ron

Ron 16 Dec 2008 11:23 PM

INVASOR...LLTK!!!

Bellwether 16 Dec 2008 11:59 PM

TAPIT...Long Live The Dirt!!!

Bellwether 17 Dec 2008 12:00 AM

i vote for Curlin to sire her foal

darlene 17 Dec 2008 12:30 AM

Art, why so negative? Anyways I like Devil his Due and Street Cry.

Rowner 17 Dec 2008 12:42 AM

Art, Racing and Breeding are two very different things. Plus she is going to be a mare everyone will have their eyes on... the higher profile the mating... the better.

Kateinabox 17 Dec 2008 1:17 AM

Let the owners and/or breeders put the name of their prospective stallions in a hat.  Then have the jockey of Peppers Pride draw out the names one at a time.  When he gets to the 19th name, that will be the lucky colt or horse that gets the cover.  That's the only fair way to do it.  And leave the rest to karma.

Ejay 17 Dec 2008 1:45 AM

Breed her to a proven stallion, and breed like to like. My selection is In Excess. His get have both speed and stamina and are double tough on the track. His daughter Musical Chimes was out of a Sadlers Wells mare, showing that he moves a quality mare up. He is the sire of Indian Charlie who was brilliant in a short career on the track. Pepper's Pride needs to be bred to a stallion that has three characteristics: speed, speed, and speed.

Peter B 17 Dec 2008 1:56 AM

First of all, Art, you are an idiot!  Secondly, let's look at conformation- forget the computer genetic matches and go old school.  For durability, soundness, will to win, etc. no one is better than Devil His Due.  She may not have raced in Grade I company but the fact remains she is a winner and there have been several instances in the racing word when big money doesn't necessarily get you a Grada I racehorse - The Green Monkey being a prime example.  LOOK at the mare and LOOK at the stallion and stop basing everything on "nicks" and "pedigrees".  Sometimes these just are no match for a keen eye and common sense.

hrseldy 17 Dec 2008 6:16 AM

Gee, Art, could they, the connections, possibly think that because she has run the hooves off everything in New Mexico, won over a million bucks, and has been sound her whole career might warrent her a breeding to a nice stallion ? Crummy Genetics? I am sure Dr Fager, Blushing Groom, Nashua, Mr Prospector, Nasrullah, Never Bend, Count Fleet, My Babu and Native Dancer along with the rest of the mentionables in her pedigree would love the fact that you are calling them CRUMMY. Pepper may not have run against the best of the best, but im my opinion she has certainly proven herself worthy of a chance to produce foals by good, well bred stallions.

mdfanofracing 17 Dec 2008 6:23 AM

 I would like to see her go to

Dynaformer if her confirmation/disposition matched up.  She shares some similarities w/La Ville: lines to War Feathers, Mr.P, Blushing Groom, Flaming Swords.

Chestnutlover 17 Dec 2008 6:30 AM

CURLIN - OF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!

CURLINLOVER 17 Dec 2008 7:27 AM

I Like a cross to Dixie Union 'A'.It is the classic Mr. Prospector/Northern Dancer match. I also thought Pleasant Tap, a 'B', would be ideal. I really feel "Tap" has fallen in the recent trend of proven sires and distance sires not selling as well at sales as the new kids on the block who may sire more precocious runners. It seems the industry is always complaining about limited starts in today's runners; however, sires like Tap who seem to generate sound runners don't receive their due at sales. And yes I am partial to Lanes End runners!

Xosoul 17 Dec 2008 7:42 AM

Personal Ensign a poor producer?

Personal Ensign (broodmare career (six black-type progeny including three grade I-winning offspring).  granddaughter Storm Flag Flying was a champion 2-year-old filly and earned just shy of $2 million.

Never speek ill of PE !

xosoul 17 Dec 2008 7:46 AM

I love Devil His Due for her, and I am glad to see so many other people support him as well.  

serena's song 17 Dec 2008 7:46 AM

I don't have a name to offer, but I'd be proud to have Pepper foal a Seattle Slew grandchild or great grandchild (A.P. Indy, Doneraile Court, Pulpit etc.). I hope she will have the opportunity to be "bred up" to a graded stakes winner/producer. She deserves every chance in the world to be a great broodmare.

MRO 17 Dec 2008 8:23 AM

Pepper's Pride who is the record holder in # of consecutive races won should visit The Green Monkey who is the highest selling two year old in training horse- He is an absolutely beautiful stallion who has great potential.

Gayle Frasier 17 Dec 2008 8:39 AM

I love speculation threads like this because it always brings out the dreamers and neophytes.

There's no reason this mare should be viewed or bred any differently than Hallowed Dreams.  She may be 'running the hooves' off everything in New Mexico, but that's a rather dubious honor, especially since she's never tried anything but state-bred company.  It's not like she's running triple digit Beyers while doing it.  In fact, has she even come close?

And that regally bred sire of hers?  Not to disparage the NM-bred program or anything, but it's not exactly a hotbed of breeding.  Looking at his stats as a sire, it's pretty clear why he's standing in NM -- less than 60% starters and 40% winners from foals is a great big FAIL as far as I'm concerned.  His next highest earner after Peppers Pride has barely a third her earnings.  I'm actually surprised they are getting $6k for him.

That female family isn't all that hot either.  In fact, it's rather depressing.  I see three black type horses in 3 generations (Pepper, her full brother and a sibling to her 3rd dam).  Most of the mares have pretty poor production records.  That's being polite.  

She's outrunning her pedigree, partly because she's where she is, and has been masterfully managed.  In my opinion, the only reason she merits a chance at a broodmare is because of her record.  Otherwise, I'd be hard pressed to encourage anyone to breed her.

Dreamers need to stop being crazy and thinking they should send this mare to some stallion like Curlin.  She should be bred as carefully and logically as she's been managed.  That means proven, breed to race stallions, at least for the first 5 years.  Not first years, not $50+k sales stallions and not ridiculous suggestions like AP Indy and Dynaformer.  If you think you're going to breed her and get a multi-million dollar yearling, you don't belong breeding horses.  It's about as likely as getting hit by an asteroid.

It's okay to dream, but you have to temper it with some common sense.

Breed her to proven $5k-$15k stallions first and let her prove she can get a runner, then move her up.

In all likelihood, they are going to want to breed her for NM-bred foals and with as restrictive as that program is, it means nothing outside the state. That means there's pretty much only one horse to consider:  Gold Case. 76% starters, 57% winners, 4% stakes horses.  B nick 1.70 rating.  Forty Niner to Fappiano is pretty much the only Mr. Prospector inbreeding I like at the moment.

The only other horse in NM I'd consider would be Precocity.

If they are willing to leave NM and give up the NM-bred money, right now there's no reason to go any farther than CA or TX with her.

Reality Check 17 Dec 2008 8:40 AM

If the A.P. Indy cross is the best match for Peppers Pride then she should go to Full Mandate who has had 63 winners this year. I would not expect her to produce a stakes winner no matter who the sire so she should go to a hard knocking consistent stallion to insure a winner on the track-

Florida stallion booster 17 Dec 2008 8:44 AM

Harbor The Gold out of Oregon is going to turn out insanely good for a regional sire, half brother to Boston Harbor by Seeking The Gold

phillygoat 17 Dec 2008 8:51 AM

I think Lane's End stallion Mingun by AP Indy-Miesque by Nureyev would be a great match.  Young stallion @ a great value I think 5K

Speedball 17 Dec 2008 9:17 AM

The most important thing is that they do retire her from the track.

I hope they do not get greedy and run her in 2009...........

Not For Love.....................

My thoughts 17 Dec 2008 9:38 AM

I am a complete amateur at pedigrees but I think Hard Spun is going to be a phenomenal sire.  Would the cross be a good one, I don't know.  I am giving an emotionally based answer.  I like Reality Check's logic though.  Realistically her owners should look to proven stallions first and measure the quality of the foal based on the stallion's stats.

Central Valley Dame 17 Dec 2008 9:40 AM

Any descendant of the great Seattle Slew would be a good match.  I would favour Tapit.  Not only has he a beautiful almost Arabian head he has sired two exceptional fillies already in Stardom Bound and Laragh (La RAA - not Lara!)  The Giant would also be a good match as he is tough, brave and durable!  Or Tiznow, neither would give up without a fight!  If they were feeling courageous then Godolphin I hope still have Extreme Measures!  A beautiful horse who for whatever reason never fulfilled his potential.  I adored him though!

Abbie Knowles 17 Dec 2008 9:44 AM

Great thread.  I will have to check out Devil His Due, so much of you like him.  If she needs a little high cruising speed, why not Hard Spun?  Regally bred, great cruising speed, and raced against the best, and had tremendous heart.

JR 17 Dec 2008 9:45 AM

Pulpit  for breeding and commercial reasons.

Windtossed 17 Dec 2008 9:45 AM

I agree 100% with Reality Check, I couldn't have said it better myself!  Has anyone even heard of Hallowed Dream since she retired?  I would still like to hear about the cross to Horse Chestnut...  Any thoughts?  

pharlap 17 Dec 2008 10:04 AM

Reality Check hit the nail on the head. The smart thing to do would be to keep this mare in the state bred program. For market or racing her foals stand a better chance of being successful in the breed program. I would also agree with his choice of stallions although I would pick Precocity number one.I like the way Mr. Prospector crosses when this mare is bred to Precocity over Gold Case. I doubt that there has ever been a NM bred where the sire and dam have both won over a million dollars.  

NMkid 17 Dec 2008 10:33 AM

Joe Allen was a dreamer.

Why should they leave NM? Our State is one of only a few not cutting purses with regularity.

We aren't cutting down on tracks, in fact several entities were vying for the one available license to operate a track.

Joel has lived in the New Mexico area his entire life his Dad Gerald has been here for eons (sorry Gerald).

He makes a tidy living.  The State is an Agrarian state and very horse friendly.

The NM bred and foaled is regulated but there's a lot of races here that are pretty lucrative. Uhh the Winstar races ring a bell?

Who's to say they won't run the foal outside of NM?  Joe ran her here because that was what she was and what was most advantageous to them.

Anyone with a thought that they'll do anything other than what they say they'll do, recall when she was off for so long because Joel didn't want to run her on an off track?

For all of you Reality Checks, Pharlaps etc, why do you post?

To revel us with your superior knowledge. Talk about how inferior she is and our State's industry is?

Yet you still give your suggestions? Well, we'll just sit here watching the rest of the industry tumble down around everyone's ears. We'll laugh at the 'experts' who probably would die to have a horse like Pepper, shoot their mouths off.

Katsan 17 Dec 2008 10:58 AM

P.S. Joel actually reads these blogs and responded once when he was being questioned about not running Pepper on the flooded out Ruidoso track.

Maybe he'll take the time to speak up. Could mosey on over to his barn and ask. But on second thought no.

Katsan 17 Dec 2008 11:01 AM

Curlin = speed, exceptional durability, strength, beauty, and disposition.

However, after 19 straight wins, I think all the stallions should be lined up and she should get her pick!!

Lyla 17 Dec 2008 11:10 AM

Assuming that Peppers Pride breeding is average, she outran her pedigree, and she does'nt deserve a stallion with royal blood then fine, breed her to whatever the best NM stallion you can. Do what is commercially safe.

If you have the money and the dream then swing for the fences.

Again-ANY GIVEN SATURDAY

outsider 17 Dec 2008 12:00 PM

What about Cactus Ridge???

Joe 17 Dec 2008 12:00 PM

Giants causeway without question would be my choice for her. Most of the other bloodlines mentioned above have too much of the Raise a Native bloodlines to cross with her. I like those bloodlines (Raise a Native) too but to much of a good thing = possible breakdowns. Giant's Causeway has the Storm Cat bloodlines which is part of the same family but also has other horses in his pedigree that add strenth, speed, and stamina. Another way to go would be to breed her to a well bred son of Broad Brush.

Debbie 17 Dec 2008 12:04 PM

Getting a good horse is like getting struck by lightning.

Increase your chances of getting struck.  Get the biggest lightning rod you can.

outsider 17 Dec 2008 12:13 PM

Dynaformer....

LeesaL 17 Dec 2008 12:17 PM

Good one, Lyla!  If they can do it for War Emblem, why not Pepper.  She may turn out to be a poor producer, but for her first breeding she should be belle of the ball! (Flight of fancy aside, I vote for Hard Spun.)

Pam S. 17 Dec 2008 12:23 PM

I think that a Pepper's Pride crossed with either Street Cry or Dynaformer would produce an amazing foal. these stallions have already shown they can produce moneymakers. Plus with either stallion, the foal wouldn't have alot of inbreeding at the top of the pedigree. i think its improtant to have a variety of blood in a foal, most horses are to inbred nowadays.

Lady Ruffian 17 Dec 2008 12:49 PM

Katsan, take it easy didn’t mean to ruffle your feathers so much. I think Joel and Joe have done a great job with this mare. Nothing should diminish what they have accomplished. Anyone who thinks it would be easy to do here is welcome to come and try. Peppers Pride has been great for NM. I doubt there is anyone out there who wouldn’t like to own this mare and have the problem of who to breed her to. Fact is she still has a weaker female family than I would like to see in a broodmare. Would I pass her up as a broodmare? Absolutely not with a race record like hers. I wish Mr. Allen all the success in the world.

NMkid 17 Dec 2008 12:49 PM

She's probably about as talented as an average allowance filly on a major circuit, so factor that in with her pedigree and she could go to anyone of hundreds of $7,500 and under studs in the US.

Reality Knocks 17 Dec 2008 12:58 PM

If money was no option - Distorted Humor.  Rahy and Tapit would go nice as well.  Taking a chance on a new sire would have to go to Lewis Michael.  I have no basis for this other than a hunch but feel he will produce some precocious little speed demons.

force 17 Dec 2008 1:11 PM

NMKid, It was less you than the others. Sort of tired of hearing about it, people diminishing her accomplishments. The real industry people aren't doing that.

When all is said and done, she's Joe's horse. An average guy who got the horse of a lifetime. Who had no delusions that she was a Cigar etc. Just knows that she's his own personal Cigar. LIke Joel said if it was so easy how come a 100 haven't done it? Bob Baffert, who's gotten whipped here in NM a couple times,uhh Real Quiet up in Santa Fe when the Downs was still open (one of the ones wanting to re-open), said it was a great accomplishment.

Maybe she won't be a great broodmare, a lot of them weren't Winning Colors? etc. But that's the chance we take every day when you work in this industry.

The long meeting they had, still leaning towards retiring her. Maybe the money she made for Joe, who isn't a super rich guy, will enable him to breed her to a KY stud and race the foal in some big races. Then we'll see like we do with the other thousands how well it turns out. Joe is actually leaning more in that direction.

After the way she ran Sunday, it may be hard to retire her though. She just loves to run, you can tell. We should be thanking Joe for sharing her with us, not belittling Pepper.

Strange handle, most people from NM are almost overproud of anything to do with NM.

Katsan 17 Dec 2008 1:57 PM

I think Art and the well named Reality Check have this nailed pretty well. I would have to differ with them in one respect and give much praise to their owners in that they have kept her in New Mexico and mainly in filly and mare races and made a fortune.  I would totally agree that breeding wise her pedigree is pretty weak and her race record is not that great either. My first thought was for sub 15k for a stallion.  I do appreciate that with the column inches and with her seemingly impressive record they could go for a expensive and commercial stallion and hope to make a killing.  I honestly do not think it is worth shipping her to KY in the current climate.  I might be tempted to ship her to KY, mate her with Intidab, send her back to New Mexico for foaling, hope for a filly and make another million plus. More important though is my support for the much maligned contributor Art.  She/He is one of the only people here to realise that this is a probably a less than stellar mare being campaigned well in a local market and if she turned up on Breeders Cup day in her state near her would have been an also ran.  

AP 17 Dec 2008 2:08 PM

Peppers Pride , excelled in New Mexico against inferior competition, why didn't the owner put her against some real competition  in cal.? I doubt that she'll produce anything like herself regardless who she mates with.What a sham to call her great when she ran against a bunch of stiffs.As for mating her with Green Monkey good luck he was a total stiff as a racehorse.

the phantom 17 Dec 2008 2:28 PM

The first thing I would have to say is that it is absolutely worth breeding Peppers Pride to a top-class commercial sire-

1) There is no easy way of earning $1,000,000 in any company in the U.S. Put $100,000 up for a state-bred stakes anywhere, and you are going to find some horses that can run a bit. There are certainly enough speed sires in New Mexico to get a horse or two that can go along quickly enough at six furlongs.

3) To go unbeaten in 19 starts in four campaigns, you have to show up and run your race each time, holding form over an extended period of time. At the very minimum, that shows a commendable hardiness and consitency. Add to that three of her wins wer in photos, and you establish some heart too.

3) I've seen a number of mares that were regional standouts go on to upgrade the family to high commercial level if given a fair chance at stud. Have a look at the sales and production record of an Illinois-bred mare called Roll Over Baby.

2) Have the knockers actually run Peppers Prides' PPs. In her most recent start, carry 126 lbs., and givin 10 lbs. to a filly that ran an 86 Beyer last out, she won "as rider pleased" with a Beyer Speedfigure of 98. For a mare, that is going win a good race in any company. She has a 95 Beyer further back too.

4) Her sire is an extremely-well bred son of Fappiano, who never ran, and who might well have owned more than his share of athletic talent. Relative to opportunity, he's certainly not a bad sire.

5) The dam isn't fashionably-bred, but there are some interesting things there, including that the sire is inbred to Johnstown (Kentucky Derby, Belmont Stakes), while the dam has Johnstown's half-sister, the high-class mare, Jacola, through her Belmont winning son, Phalanx). There is a lot of other interesting "old American" blood back there too.

As to what I would mate her too, here's a couple of quick ideas: PULPIT is by A.P. Indy (sire of Rags to Riches out of a half-sister to Desert God), and is sire of Tapit out of Fappiano line mare. He'd appreciate the mare's toughness too. GIANT'S CAUSEWAY can get a dirt horse out of a speedy mare, and two of his best runners on that surface, First Samurai and Diamond Omi, had Fappiano close up in their pedigree. There's a nice Blushing Groom double too.

Alan Porter 17 Dec 2008 2:45 PM

How about Afleet Alex?  And of course Tiznow.  The mare has heart and is obviously sound.  I hope whomever the Daddy is that she produces some quality foals.  You go girl.......

Marcia 17 Dec 2008 2:47 PM

Let's leave poor Hallowed Dreams out of this. She was compromised by being bred to downright horrible stallions (Tirade, Global Mission, Valid Bidder). Where is the Leestown? Or any of the top sires in LA? But, I agree with the others that say that as good as a racehorse as Peppers Pride is, she is not worthy of an AP Indy or Dynaformer as of yet. I would stay under $50,000 for her. I think Sky Mesa and Tapit are solid choices. Devil His Due is a good sire, but doesn't sire a lot of quality and with Peppers Pride you would want to add quality.

Elaine 17 Dec 2008 2:48 PM

Pretty darn funny stuff. 'I' would do this 'I' would do that. No 99% of you wouldn't know what you'd do if you actually HAD to make the decision. A real one, not theoretical.

Try to diminish it all you want,

her accomplishment was nothing short of amazing. That's what REAL horsemen think of it no matter where they're running.

I don't think the point of this blog was to come on and bash her, it was to come up with the best prospect.

Actually she's as well bred as a lot of the broodmares out there. Some of the most royally bred have thrown crap. Some of the most puzzling have thrown some runners.

Either none of you have RACE horses or you're jealous of somebody who got themselves a good one.

Joe, you've done everything right so far, just keep listening to Joel and you'll do fine. Breed her to whoever you see fit, keep running her if she's sound and that's what you want.

Katsan, give a shout out to Gerald, know him from the old days when I was in that inferior locale. Before I came out where they're chopping the purses and Stakes races daily. In the supposed TRUE horse country.

Atthebarn2 17 Dec 2008 3:24 PM

“Doesn’t matter,” Baffert said. “It’s significant. It’s very difficult to win, no matter what. It’s tougher in open company but it still takes a great horse to go out and win every time.”

Always knew Baffert was clueless about horse racing. Hey Phantom and the rest of you experts, please email him and let him know what the real deal is. I have a laundry list of others who share his opinion and need that same advice and instruction from you. Better yet, post those winning pictures for all of us who don't know what we're doing so we can see one.

“She’s run against top-quality New Mexico-bred mares,” Marr said. “We have not run her open. If somebody wants to criticize her for that, they can, but I don’t care. That was the best place to run her. It made the most sense for her future.”

Heck I might even leave the paradise of crummy weather, decreased purses less Stakes for the horrors of running one of mine 19 times, winning them all and making a million bucks. In a place where hay and grain etc is far less costly than it is here in the 'BIG circuit'. In a place where they could run at the Winstar Derby and 600+g's.

Those of us who have some good ones, never know what tomorrow might bring it's a crapshoot even with the best prospect, most well bred.

It's crazy to get infatuated with the breeding if the animal hasn't got the conformation and that intangible IT.

Speaking of all your expertise, why don't you folks get up from your desks or warm beds step outside at 4:30 a.m. in the cold, rain etc and practice what you preach.

Whatamidoing 17 Dec 2008 3:43 PM

Stormy atlantic.

da3hoss 17 Dec 2008 3:49 PM

I like stormy atlantic...Tiznow, most, I like the fact he goes to man O'War on the sire line, and she goes to Man O'War along the tail female line. I like the strength of both, the phenotype fits each other.

da3hoss 17 Dec 2008 4:00 PM

Here's a heads up/word to the wise:  Anybody who wants to play in the deep end of Mr. Porter's pool, or wishes to "diss" his observations on breeding, might just get in over his/her head.

It's kind of like alchemy.  Don't mess with it unless you've done your homework.  M'kay?

hecate 17 Dec 2008 4:24 PM

First I think Peppers Pride is an amazing running machine but I also think she is a freak.

I really don't think it matters who she is bred to AP Indy or the stallion down the street. No offspring from her will achieve like she has. She might have put too much on the racetrack to have a superstar offspring.

rurallady 17 Dec 2008 4:36 PM

How about Malibu Moon?   He's not exactly inexpensive at $40,000 but it's an A ++ nick.  

sidekickflats 17 Dec 2008 4:56 PM

hecate,

No different than what every other knowledgable horseman/horsewoman is saying on here.

We're trainers and breeders ourselves (3 of us with the same opinion anyway). Due to the fact that we think it's advertising, we don't use our names. Same thing Joel did when he signed on once to post.

Atthebarn2 17 Dec 2008 5:10 PM

First of all, congratulations to Mr. Allen and his team on a great run with an exceptional mare. Sounds like there are many people suggesting that she be brought to Kentucky to be bred to one of the many, high dollar,  fashionable stallions.

Lets all not forget Mr. Allen did not pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get this million dollar winner and in my book that makes him smarter than most of us. New Mexico is a closed state therefore to get a NM bred horse he would have to breed her to one of the stallions standing in NM. I have heard Gold Case and Precocity mentioned, but what about some of the others? Would a; Suave Prospect, Avenue of Flags, Devon Lane, or even a Seacliff or Dome work. Her female family has been questioned, but it is the same female family that produced her. Just maybe they can produce another million dollar winner for under 10K.Good luck

AJ 17 Dec 2008 5:27 PM

First, who I would not breed to.  No more Mr. P in the pedigree...too many chances to be lame.  No more Blushing Groom either...increases chance of a small horse.  I'd take Stormy Atlantic.

SHF 17 Dec 2008 6:09 PM

My suggestion is a stakes winning son of Seattle Slew who is producing graded stakes winners himself and stands for a decent fee ($7,500) and is very overlooked, his name is Doneraile Court. With her breeding I think the Seattle Slew line is a good one.

Julie L. 17 Dec 2008 6:30 PM

How about Smarty Jones or Albert the Great.  Would be a good cross for her. Whoever it is - she's a Great mare and I wish her all the best.

anne 17 Dec 2008 6:37 PM

I guess I don't understand the appeal of Pulpit or Tapit - each ran a total of 6 times before retiring due to injury and the offspring of Pulpit don't seem to have long race careers -

Pepper's Pride ran sound for 4 years - that is wonderful. How about breeding her to Unusual Heat in CA - he seems to produce sound horses that can run on any surface.

Anne M 17 Dec 2008 8:17 PM

I think She could also go to Tiznow. I really like Silver Wagon, maybe Curlin.

Kimmy Storino 17 Dec 2008 8:21 PM

Honour and Glory,he has sired many good runners, and his stud fee is very reasonable.

Gehana 17 Dec 2008 8:23 PM

I know he's AZ and not NM, but does that preclude NM-bred status?  If not, Benton Creek could be an interesting choice.

LanceS 17 Dec 2008 8:56 PM

Hard to find any success on the dam side going back 3 generations. Blushing Groom could be the magic ingredient or maybe BEST IN SHOW.

Deputy Minister crossed with Blushing Groom mares produced Awesome Again(2nd dam sired by Mr P)and Better Than Honour (2nd dam-BEST IN SHOW sired by Traffic Judge).

BEST IN SHOW is grandam of Desert God, Better Than Honour, El Grand Senor;  Broodmare of the the year 1982

What about DEPUTY COMMANDER sired by Deputy Minister with BEST IN SHOW tucked into his dam side?

outsider 17 Dec 2008 9:38 PM

For an inexpensive fee I like Albert The Great (A rating) at $3500.  For a bit more there's Alphabet Soup (A++ rating) for $7500.  Exchange Rate (A+ rating) for $25k. Or maybe Any Given Saturday (A++) or Harlan's Holiday (A+) both for 30k.  I think she is a terrific horse and I'm very happy for her connections. I hope she is retired now. In spite of what some are saying - her record is quite an accomplishment! Those of you who want to spend the time downing her - why don't you find something else to do with your time rather than post your negativity on here!

Racingfan 17 Dec 2008 11:28 PM

"know he's AZ and not NM, but does that preclude NM-bred status?  If not, Benton Creek could be an interesting choice.

LanceS 17 Dec 2008 8:56 PM"

Uhhh Arizona and New Mexico are two totally different states. Az purses stink. They have one major track, that's it.

An AZ foal wouldn't be elig for NM Bred, just open races. To make a million in AZ would take a lot longer. Our handicap purses are fueled by the % we get from the casinos like all of our purses and we love to gamble. Support dozens of casino's and we still are doing well, very low foreclosure rates etc, maybe they're all winning?

The NM Bred rules are pretty stringent:

STATE OF NEW MEXICO

APPLICATION FOR LICENSE TO CONDUCT A HORSE RACING MEET

A New Mexico Bred is a foal conceived in the state of New Mexico, foaled in the

state of New Mexico, weaned in the state of New Mexico, whose dam was not outside the state of

New Mexico during pregnancy.

As you see and AZ bred is not a NM

Bred.

Katsan 18 Dec 2008 12:00 AM

Also, to quote Joe "There's still a remote possibility that we might breed her in the state and stay with the state program," he said.

Like all dreamers and horsemen, he wants to try for the Derby, Oaks or Breeders Cup I'm sure.

She was scheduled to have tests to check her fertility so it's still a wait see.

Katsan 18 Dec 2008 12:09 AM

I am going to jump on the band with Devil His Due---crosses excellently with Fappiano line mares (ie. this cross produced G2SW She's a Devil Due) and you can't beat the genes for soundness! Plus the price is right. He's standing for only $5,000 in 09

NoraF 18 Dec 2008 12:13 AM

I think Alan Porter is on the right track, as I heard both those sires are being considered. 98 beyer on Sunday carrying 126 lbs., Impecable confirmation, soundness, desire,work ethic and a heart that beats to do one thing, WIN !

I say let them dream if thats what you call it, it's their horse, their money and their patience that got them this far.  They have not asked for anything special, although I do believe Pepper deserves it,and she'll probably never get it because of where she comes from (Politics not accomplishments).

So, If you still think Pepper is just another horse that has run 19 races over the course of 4 years, from 5 1/2 furlongs to 1 mile on 4 different tracks (6 furlong oval to 1 mile oval), with nine months,  six months, four months and 8 times two months between races, 14 stake races, never ran in a maiden,nw2 or 3 race, carried 127 lbs. 3 times, 126lbs. 2 times, 125 lbs. once, spotting her next rival as much as 10 lbs. and the field 15 lbs., was not the favorite in 5 of her starts, scratched from only one race in her career, after a downpour on a track that had been completely wash away three weeks prior, has been ridden, trained, groomed and owned by same people in all 19 races, earned over $1 million, holds the modern day N.A. record for most consecutive wins by 3 and has Jazil and Rags To Riches in her pedigree, I say let them dream and I hope they never have to wake up!

Oh, while we are dreaming A.P. is on that list.

JP 18 Dec 2008 2:24 AM

I know almost nothing about pedigree, but I would like to see Peppers Pride go to Afleet Alex. As I recall, he was being knocked because his sire was unfashionable, yet he has nice conformation, stamina, heart and speed. 2nd choice would be Hat Trick just because I love the Sunday Silence line and think he might prove to be a decent sire.

gailg 18 Dec 2008 8:09 AM

Katsan,  I think what Lance was asking is if she is bred to a stallion in Arizona (Benton Creek) could the foal still be NM bred.  In many states it does not matter where the mare is bred-only where she foals so it was not an unreasonable question.  I am quite sure we all know that AZ and NM are two different states but we don't all know the rules for each state.

Racingfan 18 Dec 2008 8:24 AM

Well, I guess my point was, all of the people throwing the matings out there, possibly should know the guidelines. Since some of the most hyper-critical think she has no business being bred to a KY stallion, they may want to know what Joe is facing in the breeding picture before they offer a suggestion. Just a thought on my part.

I know it's all hypothetical with the majority not having any real experience in it. Seems like a lot want to belittle the mare and say a guy can't dream. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but I've watched the mare run in person, know the connections and it's getting old with all the criticisms from supposed horse lovers.

If we're going to offer up suggestions, shouldn't we at least be a little more well versed on the subject?

Someone had already noted that NM has very stringent rules on what is NM Bred. Keeps people from coming in and raiding the purses. Peo;le think it's so inferior here, but horsemen like Steve Asmussen, R.D Hubbard, John Jones, run horses here all the time and not just quarter horses. Of course when you figure that Asmussen, JJ Pletcher, Wayne Lukas etc, etc, etc all got there major start here it's not too surprising.

Katsan 18 Dec 2008 10:38 AM

Yes, Katsan, I think you are being hypersensitive to the issue.  Some of the responders (myself included) happen to be "a little more versed" on the subject than you are paying attention to or giving us credit for and some of us don't have our heads so far in the clouds we can't see reason through dreams.

I also gave a lot of credit to her connections, unless you think words like "masterfully managed" and careful and logical are insults.

If you think I was belittling the mare, I'd like you to go back and reread my post.  Pointing out things like her sire's subpar stats and her incredibly weak female family isn't belittling, it's stating a fact.  I stand behind my opinion that the only reason this mare deserves a chance to be a broodmare is because of her race record.  Were it anything but what it is, I'd be suspicious of anyone encouraging she be bred to anything.  More often than not, racing ability doesn't transfer to the shed and most people with hands on experience know that.

If the connections want to swing for the fences and spend a bundle on a stud fee, more power to them.  The impression I have of the connections and my own opinion of the mare would dictate she not be bred to anything but a NM stallion and there are really only 2 stallions in the state to consider.  I've never once had the impression that they will sell the foal and I doubt you'd high six figures for her first couple foals anyway.

I do believe she deserves a chance to be a good broodmare -- so give it to her by breeding her as carefully and logically as they've managed her race career.  That means you don't breed her to first years and you don't waste your time or money sending her to some $50k commercial sire, especially if they are planning on running the foal themselves.

Reality Check 18 Dec 2008 3:53 PM

ANY GIVEN SATURDAY FEE $30,000

DEPUTY COMMANDER FEE WAS $7,500

BREED TO A STALLION THAT WILL HELP HER BOTTOM SIDE IF SHE THROWS A FILLY.  THE WAY I READ HER PEDIGREE, PEPPERS PRIDE GOT HER ABILITY FROM HER SIRE. SO 50/50 TO PASS HER SUPERIOR CHROMESOME TO HER FOALS.

MR PORTER SUGGESTED SOME STALLIONS WITH GREAT FEMALE LINEAGE.  ELITE PEDIGREES WITH ELITE FEES. BOTH WELL BRED AND TRACK PROVEN.

ABOVE STALLIONS SUGGESTED FOR CONVERSATION BECAUSE OF APPARENT NICK PATTERNS. WELL AWARE WE ARE NOT SPENDING MY MONEY.

STILL CURIOUS WHAT OTHERS THINK ABOUT INBREEDING TO BEST IN SHOW.

outsider 18 Dec 2008 7:23 PM

Outsider:

I agree in principle with trying to bring in the Best in Show family. I just couldn't find a horse I like enough. The nearest might be Grand Slam, Gone West/Fappiano having worked to some degree.

I still stick with the idea that she's well worth breeding to a top class horse (it'll only cost 10% of what she's earned), and believe me, a good Pulpit or Giant's Causeway would be a commercial proposition.

Alan Porter 18 Dec 2008 8:12 PM

ANKA GERMANIA similar to PEPPERS PRIDE. Family history not the best until BEST IN SHOW enters the mix.

outsider 18 Dec 2008 8:24 PM

IN ADDITION THE ARTICLE SAID THE OWNERS WERE INTERESTED IN SONS OF AP INDY.  LIKE---

PULPIT OR BERNARDINI, MINE SHAFT, STEPHEN GOT EVEN, JUMP START, ETC.

SPENDING MONEY IS A FAIR ASSUMPTION.

outsider 18 Dec 2008 8:53 PM

thinking about Sky Mesa or Corinthian?

JP 18 Dec 2008 9:45 PM

With all due respect, Mr. Porter, people pay you to tell them what they like to hear and people love to hear they have a horse worth a $50k+ stud fee.

I often wonder if people who talk about how much a mare like her makes remember that expenses have been and will be incurred along the way.  Great, she's made a million dollars.  That's outstanding and no, I wouldn't turn a runner like her down, but how much of that million do her connections still have?  How much are they looking to spend for the next 4-5 years waiting for her first foal to race.  Do they have other horses in the wings to take up the slack now that she's being retired?  (all rhetorical, mind you, I don't actually want the answers.  Just food for thought).

Isn't it more prudent to take the safe route and breed to proven, less expensive but still every bit as worthy, quality stallions so that you can stretch the money she did make out?

To me, there's more to being a pedigree consultant than just a good understanding of bloodlines.  A good one will also be a good financial adviser and sometimes the best advice is to say no, you shouldn't do that.

Mr. Porter, you and a few others keep talking as if it's a sure bet they will sell the foal.  Why does everyone always assume people are breeding for the sales ring?  Unless I've missed something (and likely I have since I don't read everything) that's not the impression I've had about her connections.  I've always been under the impression they'd want to keep and race any foals from her.

Even if they do plan on selling, there likely would be interest in a Pulpit or Giant's Causeway foal (though I still doubt you'd get high 6 figures except as a pin-hooked Green Monkey), but if she breeds to her female family and not her racing ability, how much interest to you think there will be after three foals from top sires that couldn't run a lick?

Say they sell her first 3 foals for $500k, on stud fees in the $35-$75k range.  How much have they spent out of pocket before those foals sell?  What then?  They made their few hundred grand off her first three sales foals and now they breed to race because they can't dump her on someone else?  At that point, she potentially has 3 failures and is on the road to an abysmal production record to match the rest of her female family.  Do you continue to breed her and race the foals yourself?  How many more foals do you breed and race before you quit on her?

As a runner, I'd love to have a barn full of her.  As a maiden broodmare -- she has a flashing "Proceed with Caution" over her head.

When the only good runners from her dam and second dam are her and a full brother and just about all the females in the first 3 dams are this weak, the only right thing to do by the mare is play it safe.  You have to give her the best chance to be a good broodmare possible and part of that is not setting your expectations to nearly unattainable levels.

There are a lot of really good stallions in the $5-$15k range.  Take advantage of them and breed her as wisely as she's been run.  Especially in this economy.  5 years from now, you'll know if you have a real broodmare on your hands and you can move her up then or sell her for twice what she's made as a runner.

Reality Check 18 Dec 2008 10:57 PM

Reality Check: You've obviously never been near some of my discussions with my clients! The reason I get paid is to tell them what I think, not what I think they need to hear.

Much of the work I do is for professional breeders, and I've been involved in strategic business planing the industry for a good 25 years.

From that viewpoint, I still believe that - given her $1,000,000 bankroll - it makes sense to try Peppers Pride with the best proven stallions available that fit her bloodlines and conformation.

There might be some useful sires in the $5,000 - $15,000 range, but as far as proven horses are concerned, they are in that price range for a reason.

I have no doubt that on her best form, Peppers Pride was capable of winning graded stakes at six furlongs. Graded stakes winning fillies with light pedigrees get bred to high-level stallions all the time without comment...the controversy only stems from the fact that she is a high-profile horse who ran in restricted company...if she was an "ordinary" grade three winning sprinter, no one would think her visting Giant's Causeway or Pulpit worth a comment.

Alan Porter 19 Dec 2008 12:17 AM

Yesterday's 15 posts on the TrueNicks blog introduced readers to several new stallions, making 2009 breeding decisions just a little bit easier.

TrueNicks 19 Dec 2008 8:47 AM

So what if they only make money on her first 3 foals? If the first three dont pan out you are back to where you started.Then you can breed to a regional sire. I am sure these people ( like many of us ) have spent years putting money and labor into horses that didnt pan out. Why not take full advantage of the gift/opportunity that they have? I would look for a foal share to a top stallion. How about a Darley stallion and they could sell the foal at the Nov. Fasig Tipton select sale.

LL 19 Dec 2008 12:35 PM

I think Pepper's Pride deserves the opportunity to be bred to the best proven stallion that matches her conformation and bloodline, and any other considerations.  

I seem to recall shades of a similar racemare, with a nice race record, from very unfashionable bloodlines.  Her owner's dream was to breed her to one of the best stallions of the times.  Useeit was bred to Black Toney, and Black Gold made history, winning the Kentucky Derby, dusting all the fashionable, classy pedigreed colts in that year.  With fond memories, we have a great story, in thoroughbred history, almost 100 years later, because the owner of a lowly mare had a dream, and made it happen.  

Wouldn't it make another great story?  Maybe the odds are against her, but Pepper's Pride deserves the chance.

Northwind 19 Dec 2008 8:52 PM

Mr Porter, what about Tiznow?

JP 20 Dec 2008 12:54 AM

Let us look at this mating with minimal emotion.  3 years from now, assuming the mare gets in foal in a few months time, the world will be presented with a yearling by Peppers Pride.  On the catalogue page there will be her earnings and the fact that she has won restricted races in New Mexico. In most countries this filly would not even be seen as blacktype with Listed winner being the minimum requirement. Her catalogue page will probably go down to 4th dam (Lady Pepper SS1 = 0.22, Lady Chanel SSI=0.09 and Fair Perfume SSI=0.43).  Broodmare sire would be the unraced Desert God who is less than stellar. It will not be a brilliant catalogue page for sure.  Still we have to mate her so let us look at the part of her pedigree that has been successful. I think I would focus on Desert God's dam Blush With Pride and her daughter Better Than Honour and focus on what worked with them. Deputy Minister, Ap Indy feature but I think I might be tempted to try Mineshaft.  I know this will be 3x4 Mr Prospector but I see this as a positive, the list of top horses inbred Mr Prosector continues to grow, rather than a negative.

AP 20 Dec 2008 3:41 AM

To answer a couple of the recent posts. Tiznow with Peppers Pride wouldn't be completely impossible. It does bring together In Reality and Fappiano (excellent in general, because of the duplication of Rough'n Tumble), but the Relaunch branch hasn't been the best avenue for that combination. In terms of aptitude it might be a good combination.

To answer AP (no relation!): the fact that other countries would not have listed the restricted races, is a bit of a red-herring. If there were no state-bred program, she would still have probably been running in stakes that would have drawn a regional field, or have been sent elsewhere to run in stakes. Given her 1:09 and change/98 Beyer Speedfigure for her most recent effort (and a 95 back in the pp's), if she'd have been on a bigger circuit, she might have lost a few, but she might also have been a graded stakes winner - that kind of effort is going to win plenty of black-type.

From a commercial standpoint - have a look at the record of the Ohio-bred restricted stakes winner, Roll Over Baby, and how her progeny have sold. If it comes to a yearling sale, Peppers Pride herself is going to fill most of the page. As far as pedigree/race record goes, it would be absolutely no problem for her to produce a commercially viable yearling by a $100,000 sire.

With regard to Mineshaft - I know he has Casino Drive from the family of the sire of Peppers Pride, but that one is out super-producer Better Than Honour. So, why go to a stallion that has yet to prove himself, when you can go to Pulpit, a proven top-class horse bred on the same cross? At this stage, with the mare having bankrolled a million, why cut corners?

Alan Porter 20 Dec 2008 12:18 PM

I'd still like to know why you all are assuming she (or any mare) is going to be bred for a sales foal.  Have they ever intimated they would sell her or her foals?

Reality Check 20 Dec 2008 2:38 PM

I'm not assuming that any foal will be sold. I was just answering the question in the format that was presented.

In any case looking at the hypothetical commercial value of what you are creating is a good discipline, and one I still employ for owner/breeders. It never hurts to consider whether you are creating an animal, that the day it goes into training, is likely to be worth what it cost.

Alan Porter 20 Dec 2008 7:20 PM

Mr. Porter,  I would be interested in how Pepper's Pride would do with Nobiz Like Shobiz but I didn't see his name on the list.  Any way to know?  Also what do you think of Albert The Great if they don't want to spend a lot, or Any Given Saturday if they want to go a bit higher?  

Racingfan 20 Dec 2008 9:34 PM

Mr. Porter if you could chose any stallion in the U.S. regardless of the cost and you were going to run the foal, what would it be?

JP 20 Dec 2008 11:55 PM

Fair enough, Mr. Porter.  I just can't find a logical reason to think this mare with her family should be bred in the manner most here are advocating.

I also think it's pretty disingenuous to compare Peppers Pride to Roll Over Baby.

By the time Roll Over Baby's foals hit the sales ring, her family had fleshed out considerably more than PP's family ever will.  When Majorbigtimesheet sold at Barretts in '97, ROB's stakes placed half brother was running.  By the time the rest of her foals hit the ring, her stakes winning half sister had shown up to compliment the stakes winner half brother that preceded ROB.

BTW, does anyone remember what Carson City was standing for in 1995?

Roll Over Baby is also out of a half sibling to 5 other stakes horses, her second dam a half to 2 multiple stakes horses.  Roll Over Baby's family is far superior to Pepper's Pride and her initial sales results were as much a reflection of that as her race record.  There was enough history in ROB's female family to be reasonably assured she'd get a runner (and she proved that with her first foal being a stakes winner).  The same cannot be said for Peppers Pride.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion anyone who would be willing to pay six figures for a foal from this mare, regardless of the sire, before she's proven she can out breed her pedigree like she's managed to outrace it, kind of falls under the heading of  "a fool and his money..."

In my opinion, it speaks well of her owner that he is contemplating leaving her in the state-bred program.  He could've run her outside the state, or even in state in open company, and chose not to.  Prior to this last race, there was no real indication (Beyer-wise) that she had the class to be successful in open allowance company at a major track.  That tells me he has a far superior grasp of her ability as a runner and I suspect he has the same logical understanding of her prospects as a broodmare.

And the only real reason a quality sire is under $35k is because he doesn't consistently get six figure yearlings.  Personally, "Commercial sire" is a four letter word.  I dream of a day it and "breed to sell" are stripped from the industry's lexicon.  The fact that consultants even have to ask if a client is breeding to race or breeding to sell is disturbing.  I would hope all breeders are breeding to race, I've been around long enough to know better.

Reality Check 21 Dec 2008 12:34 AM

Sorry, meant to reply to the last comment sooner. I'd agree that Roll Over Baby is not an exact comparison, but she is an illustration of a state-bred mare, who entered a commercial program, and was able to make an impact there (the real reason she was bought, I believe, was her looks). She was almost certainly not as good a runner as Peppers Pride, and the top line is a lot more obscure (to commercial breeders, anyway).

She did/does have more black-type on the page, in the first couple of dams, it's almost all Ohio-bred.

Talking strictly from a commercial standpoint - which I admit, might be completely hypothetical - if you can get a really stellar individual by even a $10,000-$15,000 freshman sire, six figures is not too hard (or at least wasn't before the melt-down), almost irrespective of family.

Whether it makes sense or not, the chances are, a good-looking Pulpit or Giant's Causeway out of this mare would have no problem giving a decent return on investment. Given what she's earned, it would be worth putting up the money to give her the best shot possible.

I'd also agree that, for whatever reason, her last run was a major step forward on the balance of her form (other than a 95 Beyer a while back). Still, on the basis of that effort, she would have been a graded stakes filly.

With regard to the "breed to sell" scenario, I think that production costs are so high that it takes some fairly deep pockets to take a horse all the way to the track (I've got a mare, her yearling in pre-training, and her weanling, so I get a monthly reminder of that fact), and the market has been so particular that "breed to sell" has been elevated to an art form.

For me, as an advisor, it just means that there are a group of stallios in any given year, that are too risky to use. I'd have to say, that one of the results has been very inconsistent quality in stallions' books, and this makes it very hard to fairly evaluate stallions.

Any, thanks for the dialogue, it's made for a thought-provoking exchange of views, and raised some interesting points.

Alan Porter 23 Dec 2008 11:48 AM

Sorry, got in on conversation late,but didnt see a response to JP on your pick regardless of price if you were going to run the foal.

carlsbad 23 Dec 2008 7:59 PM

I think it was much easier to justify breeding Roll Over Baby semi-commercially based on her own family history, since it gave reason to believe she'd be able to produce a runner.

I was just looking at Peppers Pride's pedigree to see if I might be missing an obvious answer or overlooked avenue and if there is one, I would have to think it Portage (through her son Pack Trip, sire of Pepper's third dam), or more specifically, Fall Aspen.  It's unfortunate there's no real way to get there.  All the good Fall Aspen males either died before they could prove themselves as sires (Dubai Millennium and Prince of Thieves) or are in other countries (Fort Wood, Bianconi, Timber Country) because they couldn't quite cut it here commercially.

Oh, for the want of A.I. (I'd probably go with Bianconi from that lot).

Have a Merry Christmas all.

Reality Check 24 Dec 2008 12:54 AM

Reality Check: How about Dixie Union, who goes back to a half-sister to Pack Trip? I haven't got a lot of time to dissect it, but there is a lot of interesting "old American" blood in the dam, including the double of Johnstown, two crosses of Bimelech and so forth. She's got another Bimelech and a daughter of La Troienne in the sire. The double of Johnstown, combined with Fappiano would encourage Omaha/Flares. A horse with a Storm Bird/Nijinsky II combination would have both.

Alan Porter 24 Dec 2008 10:10 AM

JP/Carlsbad: Irrespective of price, I'd still start with Giant's Causeway and Pulpit, as for me, they are the best two proven stallions that fit her pedigree. Pulpit sons, Sky Mesa and Tapit are more experimental, but interesting. First Samurai is an interesting Giant's Causeway son on paper.

But if we were really going to try something, have a look at Olmodavor. He is A.P., which has worked with Desert God's family, and he has El Gran Senor to double up that female line.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Alan Porter 24 Dec 2008 10:17 AM

If you have ever bred and raced horses you know how difficult it is to break a horses maiden in any class because there are so many variables to get you beat. I don't care if the mare ran in NM, Ohio, Ok, Indiana or the cheapest tracks in the country, Pepper's Pride did something that is very, very difficult to do. I think the owner is trying to get a free stud fee in Kentucky from a high profile stud. I know he has asked for at least one and was turned down but I suspect someone with a high profile stallion will give him one for free. I hope it is the perfect one. The mare deserves it.

bigjohntee 24 Dec 2008 12:36 PM

Re: Dixie Union -- I like it.  Good call.  For some reason, I tend to blank on him when I'm looking at that Change Water branch -- If it's not Allen's Prospect or one of the Fall Aspen boys, I don't bring them immediately to mind.

I liked him better at $35k.  He has the production numbers I like to see, I just can't fathom why his AEI/CI has the gap it does.  0.5 isn't bad at his level, I just wish it were a little closer.

It's a lot cleaner than the other three Change Water inbreds he's produced as well (all from daughters of Allen's Prospect out of Dancer line mares) but of those three, two started/won and one is a stake horse.

I can't figure out a fast, easy way to pull all the Portage inbreds, but of the ones I did find (sibling to sibling matches) looks like there are 37 foals, 30 starters, 19 winners and 3 stakes horses. That's not too bad.

Reality Check 26 Dec 2008 6:42 AM

I have spent a while thinking about this and am still staying with inbreeding to Mr Prospector.  However, I have changed my selection to City Zip.  12.5k is reasonable. AEI 1.84 v Ci 1.40 so he upgrades.  Good sire of 2 year olds.  I think he will be also be inbreeding to her genetic strengths.  Truenicks likes the mating ie A++ 24.82 with Gr1 Bustin Stones being bred on the same lines.  In fact the other good City Zip offspring seem to like returns of RAN and or Blushing Groom too.  How can it fail?

AP 31 Dec 2008 6:00 AM

City Zip's a very unusual Mr. Prospector grandson, in that he seems love crossing back over Mr. Prospector line mares. We were involved in planning the mating for Bustin Stones - didn't know that he was going to like Mr. Prospector in general, but loved the Mr. Prospector/In Reality crosses on both sides of the pedigree.

City Zip is mega value for 2009 - he had an undefeated G1 winner and an undefeated multiple graded stakes winner last year.

Alan Porter 02 Jan 2009 12:58 PM

It's just been announced that Pepper's Pride has officially retired and booked to Tiznow. The deal with Tiznow isn't set in stone yet, but according to the article on The Bloodhorse Mr. Allen are pretty set on the breeding.

What's your take on this? Some of the people I've been talking with believe it's a good and balanced match, with a bit more speed than stamina thrown in. According to TrueNicks the best horses on the Tiznow/Mr. Prospector cross are ungraded stakes winners but if Mr. Allen intends to run the resulting foal in New Mexico I think it's a pretty good deal.

Justine 16 Jan 2009 3:39 PM

Surprised that Tiznow was chosen for PP.

I like Tiznow and watched with interest as he proved himself with so many quality runners.

I'm watching Peace Rules now.  He seems to have gotten a good start as his 2yo crop had reasonable success.

If not tying back to BEST IN SHOW, then I like Cherokee Run or one of his sons.  The newest sons have really strong dam side pedigrees and choice of sprint or distance. The older sons are relative bargains as mostly sprint sires.

outsider 28 Jan 2009 12:24 AM

Rachel Alexandra has taken North American racing by storm. The runaway winner of the Kentucky Oaks has been sold since her Classic win, she's been involved in some Preakness controversy, and her new owners have indicated mating plans even before her retirement

TrueNicks 11 May 2009 10:25 AM

I go for Jazil - Blush With Pride 3Bx3C - but I'd have to investigate how they match up in terms of temperament and physical attributes ... can't go by chart alone!

markofesteem 14 May 2009 7:27 PM

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