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Q&A - What are the Differences Between TrueNicks & Other Nicking Systems? What's More Important, a 'Good' Dosage Profile or a Good Nick Rating?

Written by aporter | Oct 05, 2009

Dawn asks: I am somewhat new to this and really need some help. have a mare named Buy You A Bear (Bayou Hebert x Sheckyrilla -
Shecky Greene) that I am contemplating breeding to Borrego (TrueNicks,SRO) or Leroidesanimaux (BRZ) (TrueNicks,SRO) . These are my questions:

1) Based on TrueNicks, she nicks better with 'Leroi' than Borrego, but her Dosage is better with Borrego and she has more stakes winners with
him as well. Is it because the actual horses in the pedigrees are exact vs. just in that particular bloodline?

2) When I look at her and Borrego and Leroidesanimaux on other nicking systems, they do come up a bit different (a D with Borrego, etc...) . I know there are differences with the two systems, I am just unclear as to what they are.


Alan's response: Thank you for the question. We are always happy to talk about the differences between TrueNicks and other nicking systems.

Firstly, before we get to the nicking part of the question, I want to clear up something about the dosage. You mention that the dosage with Borrego is "better" than the dosage with Leroidesanimaux. However, dosage is just designed as a reflection of the aptitudinal contribution of the principal males in the pedigree. Borrego has a pedigree with a broader distribution of aptitude, due to some of the stamina influences in the pedigree. In terms of the modern interpretation of dosage, the mating with Borrego produces a pedigree for a horse that is likely to stay further than the Leroidesanimaux. This is reflected in their race record: Borrego stayed ten furlongs well - and possibly got further - and at his best was able to produce a very powerful turn of foot in races at that distance. Leroidesanimaux was primarily a miler (although he won good races at up to 8 1/2 furlongs), but was fast enough to win the Morvich Handicap (gr. III) at 6 1/2 furlongs. The dam won over 4 1/2 and 6 furlongs. To sum up, however, neither dosage is "better" but the mating with Borrego is possibly more likely to produce a horse with stamina (although mating a sprinting mare to a staying stallion can also end up with a horse that takes completely after one or other side of the pedigree). With Leroidesanimaux your almost certainly going to get a sprinter or sprinter/miler.

From the nicking point of view they reflect in somewhat different ways. Obviously both horses don't yet have enough starters on any cross to achieve a rating (Borrego has yet to have runners). There is also not enough evidence for the cross of Candy Stripes (sire of Leroidesanimaux) with mares by Bayou Herbert to get a rating, but Candy Stripes has two stakes winners in South America out of mares from the line of Tom Rolfe (the grandsire of Bayou Hebert). On this basis the cross is rated B+ For Borrego, we have to go back one more generation in the sire line - Borrego - El Prado (IRE) (TrueNicks,SRO) to Sadler's Wells - with mares from the Hoist the Flag line. This has had many more tries than Candy Stripes (who has very few stallions sons) with Hoist the Flag. Since it involves Sadler's Wells and his many good stallion sons (as well as a far bigger pool of mares than Candy Stripes has covered from the line) it has produced more stakes winners, and some very high-class horses. In terms of stakes winners produced by the cross, it has produced a somewhat higher ratio of stakes winners to starters than the representatives of the Sadler's Wells and Hoist the Flag lines involved when bred to all other mares.

The "other" nicking system that you mentioned returns lower ratings for both Leroidesanimaux and Borrego. For Leroidesanimaux, it is returning a rating based on the Blushing Groom sire line, rather than Candy Stripes. Their system is also based on the proportion stakes winners from a sire line and broodmare sire line in their data base, rather than actually starters on a cross (only TrueNicks, which uses the database of the Jockey Club is able to do this). What this suggests is that the proportion of horses bred on the cross is actually lower than their representation in the "other" database would suggest (in this case, probably a function of geographic circumstance).

The bottom line is both crosses have outperformed opportunity, and I would not be opposed to either one.  As I mentioned earlier, the Leroidesanimaux mating is almost guaranteed to produce a sprinter or sprinter/miler, the Borrego mating has more of a stamina speed contrast, and might produce a foal that takes more strongly after one or other parent. From a pedigree pattern standpoint, I would note that Bayou Hebert goes back to a near three-parts-sister to Thong (third dam of Sadler's Wells), and the mare also has Cap Size, a good stakes winner who is half-sister champion Smart Deb (fourth dam of Borrego). 

7 Comments:

Somebody prove to me that the entire nicking thing isn't just a bunch of crap.

  • Byron's Reply: Dean, how would you like us to prove it to you? When we did the initial research program we did in fact ask the question and the results were statistically significant across 100,000 horses of varying quality. Commercial horses tend to have a slight skew towards higher ratings in general which is probably something to be expected. Other than us stating this to you, what would you like to see to prove it to you?
Dean Miller 05 Oct 2009 7:40 PM

I am just getting into the business and I have to admit all of this seems overwhelming - I have bought the books on breeding thoroughbreds etc. but these books just don't cover as indepth the pedigree side of breeding. I love reading anything that TrueNicks has to say because I make note of your references to the different pedigrees. Seriously TrueNicks you and your advisers need to write a book on the pedigrees of todays thoroughbreds - what lines are good, what lines to stay away from for certain types of mares etc. I find that I am the type of person that likes to research more before I make any sort of decision and to a newbie who doesn't live in the states or has astronomical sums to spend I think that with the recession in both Canada and the US as well as elsewhere that we will start to see more of depending on the pedigree for racing rather than the pedigree for commercial sale. I would like to see if we get more of the great ones now that the mares and stallions that shouldn't be bred aren't going to because there just isn't the money for it. As a side note - totally off-topic in a way - It would be interesting to see Dance with Ravens bred to RA - Dance Smartly would definetley be a good influence - she was also a great racehorse and producer.What would that kind of mating produce is a interesting question.

Ashley from the Peg 05 Oct 2009 8:23 PM

I have a stallion named Dynamite Vision and a mare named Ivy League Genius. He is an unraced son of Vision and Verse and she earned over 180k and is a daughter of Beau Genius, Would these to have a foal with a good dosage and what does it mean????? I did a true nick and got an A+ but what does that mean????

PLEASE HELP

Jim 07 Oct 2009 12:50 AM

Hi Jim,

The broad cross of Storm Cat line stallions over mares by Beau Genius has been an extremely successful one. The number of stakes winners - all by different stallions - out of mares by this specific broodmare sire, would seem to indicate a very strong affinity.

I am not a big believer in the importance of dosage. Here the distribution indicates that it is heavily weight towards the "brilliant" end of the spectrum, which is strongly associated with speed.

However, given that Vision and Verse was a good second in the Belmont Stakes, and that Dynamite Vision's dam is by Dynaformer, we have plenty of stamina here.

The dam won over a mile too, so this foal should have no problem with nine furlongs.

Alan Porter 07 Oct 2009 4:49 PM

I have a chief seattle colt and i am interested in using hime for a breeding stallion next year.  what broodmare lines would you recommend? thanks, brent

Byron's Reply: Brent, TrueNicks is launching a Stallion Affinity Report at the end of this month which you should find of great utility. The report looks at all the active broodmare sirelines available in the region and rates the stallion against these sires. You will be able to then quickly look at all the broodmare sirelines that rate well with your stallion and make informed decisions. Look out for it in the next few weeks.

brent 11 Oct 2009 1:57 PM

Dawn, if you are looking for True Nicks and Nicking, you need to look at Danzig and Storm Cat stallions for your mating. Sons of Danzig, Danzig and Northern Dancer have produced graded stakes winners and stakes winners out of Bayou Hebert and Hoist The Flag mares. Storm Cat, Storm Bird and Northern Dancer have all produced graded stakes winners and stakes winners out of Hoist The Flag mares.

Bob@tbhorse 14 Oct 2009 2:36 PM

Dear sirs /madam could anyone with breeding knowledge tell me wether the colt AL ZIR PERCHASED BY THE GODOLPIN racing stable and entered in the 1 mile 2000 and the 1 1/2 mile Derby will this colt stay 1 1/2 miles on breeding thanks you for the chance to ask

ALAN T NAYLOR 22 Oct 2009 9:20 PM

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