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The Influence of Alydar

At the TrueNicks office in Lexington, Ian Tapp and Scot Gillies recently raised some interesting questions about the pedigree and rating of a sister to the very talented Brother Derek (TrueNicks,SRO), who was offered at last Monday’s Barretts May Sale of Two-Year-Olds in Training.

This filly, named Sister Kate, is by Alydar’s son Benchmark (TrueNicks,SRO) out of Miss Soft Sell, by Siyah Kalem. What’s interesting about this pedigree is that there are only six foals of racing age – including two-year-olds of 2010 – by Benchmark out mares by Siyah Kalem, and from just three starters, the cross has resulted in grade I winner Brother Derek; grade III winner Standard Setter; and stakes winner Don’tsellmeshort, so the cross has a 100% stakes winner/starter strike rate. Brother Derek and Don’tsellmeshort are full-brothers, and we have to note that without the presence of Standard Setter, the TrueNicks algorithm would have defaulted to a deeper cross to calculate the rating. The reason for this is that when TrueNicks was created, one of the requirements to rate a specific version of the cross where there were stakes winners, was that there be at least two stakes winners, out of two distinct mares. This was to avoid as much as we could, situations where there were stakes winning siblings that might be result of an affinity with elements in a specific sire and dam, rather than an indication of an affinity between a sire (or sire line) and broodmare sire (or broodmare sire line). Here with two mares (of quite different ancestry on their distaff side), producing three stakes winners from three starters on the Benchmark/Siyah Kalem cross, for a TrueNicks variant of 834.7 – one of the highest we’ve ever seen – and an A++ nick rating (Click to see the report).

That we are seeing a genuine affinity between Benchmark and Siyah Kalem is borne out by a look at Benchmark’s strike rate with all other Mr. Prospector line mares. That’s produced 43 starters, and just one additional stakes winner (graded winner Grazen, out of a mare by Rubiano). The broad Alydar/Mr. Prospector cross resulted in only 11 stakes winners from 451 – excluding the Benchmark/Siyah Kalem trio – for a stakes winners-to-starters rate of 2.4%. This figure is not terribly exciting, even taking into account the depressing record of Alydar sons as stallions overall. The reverse cross, Mr. Prospector/Alydar isn’t much more spectacular, with a TrueNicks variant of 0.34 and a rating of D.

This raises a couple of questions: why was Alydar/Mr. Prospector (and the reverse) so poor in general; and why has the Benchmark/Siyah Kalem version proved so much better than the norm? Before tackling those, however, we probably should answer another question that must surely have popped into readers minds by now, and that’s “who on earth is Siyah Kalem?!” The answer is that he was a rather well-bred son of Mr. Prospector and the Graustark mare Lady Graustark (dam of two other stakes winners, including Bel Bolide – a group winner in England, third in the classic 2,000 Guineas (gr. I), and subsequently a four-time graded winner in the U.S.). Siyah Kalem showed his best form in Europe, where he earned seconds in two German group events and a third in England’s group II Waterford Crystal Mile, then came to the West Coast, where his most notable effort was a second in the Premiere Handicap (gr. III) at Hollywood Park. He sired six stakes winners from 247 starters, none of them graded.

Let’s look at the distaff sides of the pedigrees of Benchmark and Siyah Kalem for sources of an affinity between the pair. While the answer doesn’t exactly leap off the page, there are commonalities which might offer an explanation. Winter’s Love, the dam of Benchmark, is by Danzig (bringing in Nearctic and Petition). She is line bred to Mahmoud, and her second dam is by Turn-to (by Royal Charger, whose granddam, Mumtaz Begum, is a three-parts-sister to Mahmoud), out of a daughter of the important mare Lavendula. Lady Graustark, the dam of Siyah Kalem is by Graustark, whose broodmare sire, Alibhai, has strong pedigree links to Nearctic and Petition. She has Mahmoud and Badruddin, similarly-bred three-parts-brothers to Mumtaz Begum, and My Babu, another grandson of Lavendula. Conclusive evidence? No, but as “The Boss” said, “You can’t start a fire without a spark,” and there are enough genetic relationships here to ignite the right kind of timber. We also wouldn’t count out some biomechanical factors. Our colleagues who toil in the field of equine biomechanics have advanced the notion that Alydar was a “stride” horse, a horse whose rare talent resided in an ability to maintain an economic stride, rather than having a balance of stride and power. The best runners by such stallions are often “outliers” and don’t cross well with a high proportion of the broodmare population. An interesting note with regard to this and Alydar is that his two sons who were relative over-achievers, Benchmark and Jeblar, were atypical of their sire being seven furlong horses, while probably his most successful stallion son, Saratoga Six, was a brilliant juvenile and also somewhat physically atypical of his sire.

As far as the Alydar/Mr. Prospector and Mr. Prospector/Alydar crosses are concerned, as a rule of thumb, crossing a sire or dam back over their immediate sire line (Raise a Native in this case) almost always has a below opportunity strike rate. You might have hoped that the similarities in the pedigrees of Alydar and Mr. Prospector would have offset the negatives of this pattern, but obviously this was not the case. There is a good chance that combining Alydar and Mr. Prospector elsewhere in pedigrees may have a positive effect as there are upwards of 250 stakes winners inbred to Raise a Native through Alydar and Mr. Prospector, 30 of them grade I winners. This is pretty amazing considering Alydar’s limited impact as a sire of sires, and the fact that many of his sons have little impact as sires of broodmares. What is unusual about Alydar, unlike Secretariat and Buckpasser, who also disappointed as sires of sires, is that he has not been an outstanding broodmare sire of sires. The most notable exceptions to that principle would be Peintre Celebre in Europe and Australia, and Easing Along in South America, while Arch (TrueNicks,SRO) has a second dam by Alydar.

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32 Comments:

20 years after his death and I still love reading about Alydar. May his legacy live on through Benchmark and Brother Derek.

MRO 18 May 2010 9:19 AM

My favorite racehorse of all time and in the pedigree of Blue Blue Sea, my favorite *horse* of all time - interesting article!

Blue Blue Sea 18 May 2010 9:58 AM

Excellent article ! I had always thought that the late Easy Goer with his superb looks and pedigree ,would carry on Alydar's line!The few crops Easy Goer had sired seemed not to be the case.Like his sire he seemed to do better with his fillies. My Flag ,Champion 2yr old and dam of Champion Storm Flag Flying and Multiply , dam of Champion miler and promising young sire Corinthian . I'd like to see Brother Derek do well at stud and keep Alydar's male line alive and well !

Pedigree Shelly 18 May 2010 1:04 PM

I have always loved Alydar and his offspring. Most notably, my namesake Criminal Type and Saratoga Six. I always get chills when I see pedigree's with these two sons of Alydar in them. I will have to put Benchmark on the list.

Such a sad, disturbing thing that happened to Aly. It still pisses me off that J.T. Lundy basically got away with killing Alydar and ruining the great Calumet Farm. What a reprehensible excuse for a human being, truly a man with no honor.

Criminal Type 18 May 2010 1:10 PM

Yes, my favorite all-time horse is CURLIN! But I have great admiration for for Alydar, who truly helped Affirmed to the Triple Crown. In fact, I have a purebred Bengal cat named Alydar! What impact he has had genetically! Amazing!

CURLINLOVER 18 May 2010 1:59 PM

My favorite horse of all time and the only horse to finish second in all three jewels, for me he is a triple crown winner. Too bad his life was cut too short by such a dishonest man. What could have been we will never know. Carry on Benchmark in your daddy's name.

Julie L. 18 May 2010 3:30 PM

Those having broad print media access should exhibit restraint and care when penning negative comments about sires. It is the breeders that mold the future of the breed. Their qualitative assessments-what genes to cherish or discard- are often influenced by the printed word.

You stated that many of Alydar's sons have had limited impact as sires of broodmares. Same could be said for any stallion; why single out Alydar? Just from memmory, I could point to Saratoga Six, Turkoman, and Strike The Gold as three who have exceeded expectations as broodmare sires. Strike The Gold is particulaly noteworthy, as he is relatively not well bred, and received only limited support, quality-wise...As to your reference that Alydar was a "stride" horse and that his best runners are often "outliers", etc.-why then isn't Alydar himself also an "outlier? There's little argument that Alydar was a highly successful stallion...Secretariat and Buckpasser have been outstanding broodmare sires of sires. It is they that are "unusual", rather than it "unusual" that same cannot be said for Alydar...Buckpasser and Secretariat should not have been grouped within the same context-Buckpasser proved to be a very good, perhaps great sire, Secretariat was not. Buckpasser was by no means a top sire of sires, but certainly far better than Secretariat here. Throughout the history of the breed, very, very few are deemed to have great impact as sires of sires-often this has little to do with their true genetic worth...As an aside, one wonders what would have been their impact as sires had Numbered Account, Terlinqua, or Althea been males.        

sceptre 18 May 2010 4:11 PM

Alydar was a true champion not only on the track, but also in the breeding shed. Sure do hope that the b-----s involved with his murder have gotten their just reward.

Robin from Maryland 18 May 2010 9:56 PM

I've been watching the comments here -- let's just say this is a popular topic. Even after 20 years there are some extremely passionate people about Alydar and his untimely death. Thank you to everyone who has left comments, but we're just posting those that deal with pedigree aspects, unless someone wants to comment on Alan's Springsteen reference...

Ian Tapp 18 May 2010 11:50 PM

How is Winter's Love line bred to Almahmoud? I certainly see that Mahmoud gave a son, The Axe twice and a daughter Natalma but please take one minute and explain it, thanks

Miss Soft Shell has 2 War Relics and a sister

  • Alan's reply:  Winter's Love isn't inbred to Almahmoud. As you say, she's got Mahmoud twice, through Almahmoud and The Axe II (who have some other commonalities). Brother Derek has a double of The Axe II along with Almahmoud. Sorry, it was just a typo - it should have said Mahmoud (now corrected in the post above) - she's linebred to Mahmoud and she also has Royal Charger, with the three-parts-sister to Mahmoud. .
  • Maryland 19 May 2010 7:12 AM

    It's a great testimony to the charisma of the horse that some notes about Alydar, most famous for the races he did not win, have drawn some heartfelt responses on the blog.

    One commentator sprung to the defence of Alydar, noting our comments regarding his influence. Of course, in terms of his record as a sire of broodmare sires, it wasn't a case of "picking on Alydar" just that Alydar was the horse under discussion, and his impact on subsequent generations the main topic. Of course, "exceeded expectations" is a very subjective term, and at the time they retired to stud, expectations for some of Alydar's best sons were very high indeed.  Saratoga Six, who we noted as one of Alydar's better sons, has been a very respectable broodmare sire, and his daughters have produced three grade one winners. Turkoman, who covered good mares when he retired to stud, and therefore has plenty of well-bred daughters is broodmare sire of plenty of stakes winners, but only three of them grade one, Colonel John, Hard Spun, and Point Given, a horse who took far more after Turkoman than his sire, Thunder Gulch, but who cannot be said to have lived up to the highest hopes at stud. Strike the Gold is only broodmare sire of eight stakes winners, three graded, and one grade one (Borrego, who is out of a mare who has Alydar and his close relative, Raise a Cup, and is also from a very strong female line).

    The comment regarding Alydar being a "stride" horse, and the explanation that often his best runners would have that characteristic to a greater degree, was first raised by Equix biomechanics, and I thought it was a hypothesis that was sufficiently interesting to raise. It's certainly interesting that his most successful son, Saratoga Six, was a precocious two-year-old speedster, and that Benchmark, his most notable over-achiever, was a seven furlong horse.

    In the context of the direction of their influence, you certainly can group Buckpasser and Secretariat together, as neither appear to have established a lasting sire line in the U.S., but both became outstanding broodmare sires of sires. You raise the question, "What if Numbered Account, Terlingua and Althea been males." One answer is that there would have been no Private Account, Mutakddim, Not For Love, Bluegrass Cat, and Super Saver (all descending from Numbered Account), and no Storm Cat (out of Terlingua). With regard to Buckpasser - and I would say that he was slightly disappointing in his own era - his fillies tended to be better than his colts, so Numbered Account may not have been as good as a male, and that his best sons, L'Enjoleur, Norcliffe, Silver Buck, State Dinner, and Balzac, did little to indicate that another son would have been an exception. In fact his best stallion son was the relatively modest Buckaroo, who does have a slim shot at extending the line, via Spend a Buck (sire of Einstein) and Montbrook. Terlingua did have a very quick brother called Pancho Villa, and he was a very ineffective stallion. With regard to Althea, I'd question why a male version should have significantly outperformed such as Alysheba, Turkoman, Criminal Type and Easy Goer (who with the help of the Phipps female lines, has actually been a better broodmare sire than most other Alydar sons).

    One of the beauties of racing and breeding is that it can encompass a world of opinion, and it would be very boring if we all interpreted data the same way. My feeling that my broad comment on Alydar - disappointing as a sire of sires, surprisingly ineffectual as a broodmare sire of sires, and generally disappointing as a sire of broodmare sires - is a reasonable interpretation of available data, and that the comments are warranted.

    Alan Porter 1 19 May 2010 1:17 PM

    Since we are discussing Buckpasser,in my opinion,one of his best fillies is Relaxing! She was durable,not afraid to carry weight or face the best in the handicap division in her time ! Impeccable Claiborne breeding ,she is inbred 4Sx4D to La Troienne!I think she would have fit well with Seattle Slew ! Was she ? I'm having trouble getting that information ! Alluvial by Buckpasser was another Claiborne mare who did well crossing with " Slew " Slew O'Gold was a champion who sired alot of nice horses but, could never be considered a "sire of sires " or even a decent broodmare sire . Sorry to wander off the subject ! :)

    Pedigree Shelly 19 May 2010 2:47 PM

    Shelly,

    Relaxing did have a foal by Seattle Slew, a 1985 filly called Comfy, who was a winner, and who earned black-type with a third in the Davona Dale Stakes at the Meadowlands.

    Alan Porter 19 May 2010 8:56 PM

    wheaton   my have any consideration like benchmark and the others..??

    william 20 May 2010 6:18 AM

    William,

    Wheaton was a useful stallion and got lots of winners and stakes horses, but only two graded winners -- Santana Strings and Radical Riley. Benchmark has seven graded winners including three grade I. Wheaton is a half brother to Storm Cat, so it will be interesting to see what his daughters produce.

    ITapp 20 May 2010 9:49 AM

    The influence of Alydar never stops to amaze. You can see his name in the pedigrees of such great runners like ICE BOX, Eskendereya, Gio Ponti, Summer Bird, Dunkirk and in the recent past Secret Status just to name a few at a glance. Many of them with Seattle Slew in their genealogy as well. So the afinity is more than demonstrated there...!

    Native Dancer 20 May 2010 4:16 PM

    William,

    A pretty well-known trainer told me he wouldn't mind a barn full of Wheatons. I believe they're very tough.

    There is an interesting one called Desert Wheat who has started 50 times and earned around $690,000. He's out of a mare by Royal Academy, so has Crimson Saint 3 x 3 (she's granddam of Wheaton and dam of Royal Academy).

    At a quick look, I can find one stakes winner and two stakes placed horses out of Wheaton mares, and both the stakes placed horses are by Storm Cat line stallions, so inbred to Terlingua.

    Alan Porter 20 May 2010 7:19 PM

    Dear Alan,

    Your comprehensive and researched response is appreciated. No doubt, yours is a "reasonable interpretation" of available data, for the most part, but perhaps your data and thus your interpretations are farther from what is reality than is another's derived from his own perspective. I'll offer a few examples:

    I speak as one who "lived" the racing and breeding career of Buckpasser (and the complete breeding career of the immortal, and largely underrated Tom Fool, his sire). It was my belief, then, that Buckpasser's leading male earners, L'Enjoleur, State Dinner, Silver Buck, Norcliffe, and Balzac hadn't, for the most part (Silver Buck was a ? for me) what it takes to succeed at stud. I came by this through witnessing their racing careers and evaluation of their pedigrees. (Not to say that I've always been correct, but that was my belief, then). On the other hand, I was always smitten with Buckaroo-the type of racehorse he was, and his pedigree, which for me was clearly superior to those above mentioned. Buckaroo did have soundness issues, and was, as was his sire, somewhat back at the knees. He was afforded only limited opportunity at stud. Unlike those others, I bred to him. Numbered Account was for me clearly Buckpasser's most talented runner, and of his talented runners the best bred of all. She was nearly the female carbon-copy of her sire, and perhaps the most talented female runner of my lifetime. This is why I bemoan the fact that she wasn't instead a male (yes, may not then have been quite the same racehorse, but with essentially the same genes). And, yes, she had the full-brother, How Curious, but citing this is as meaningless as citing a Pancho Villa, any of Mr. Prospector's or Swaps', or numerous others full-brothers. As said, this is but an example of how our perspectives may differ. I could offer similarly differing views on Alydar and his sons. Raw stats and tables are arguably less accurate reflections of reality than conclusions from some of those who are "studious" followers of the sport over a prolonged period.        

    sceptre 21 May 2010 3:48 PM

    Wasn't Alysheba a stakes winner and broodmare produing son of Alydar? Ihave seen him as damsire inafew European pedigrees?

    Not an expert 22 May 2010 1:34 PM

    Alysheba has some standout European runners as a broodmare sire:

    Alysheba's daughter Bordighera produced European Champions Grandera (by Grand Lodge) and George Washington (Danehill).

    His daughter Vanishing Prairie produced MG1SP Purple Moon (Galileo) and French highweight Vespone (Llandaff).

    His daughter Bright Moon produced another French highweight, Bright Sky (Wolfhound).

    His daughter Alywow was 1994 Canadian Horse of the Year and produced MG1SP Century City (Danzig).

    ITapp 22 May 2010 2:38 PM

    Hi Sceptre,

    Perhaps it's because there are no absolutes that this remains such a fascinating business.

    A lot has to do with expectation and perception - for example almost none of the better sons of Buckpasser struck you as sire of sire material - although one might argue that if he'd been a true sire of sires, one or two of them might have been good enough to break through.

    Funnily enough, as talented, good-looking, and well-bred as he was, with hindsight, Buckpasser himself didn't have a stallion pedigree. It's hard to recall now, but the La Troienne family took a while to really produce stallions, and Tom Fool, good as he was - Horse of the Year at four, over three-year-old Native Dancer - never had a really good stallion son.

    What, perhaps is interesting is that Buckpasser and Secretariat have been more important as influences, than they were successful as sires, but we're still waiting to see if that is true of Alydar.

    It will be a shame if everything is one day reduced to statistics and there's no room for individual interpretation, or some lively debate.

    Best

    Alan

    Alan Porter 25 May 2010 5:39 PM

    Hi Alan,

    You've been most courteous to engage in this back and forth, so I was reluctant to offer yet another reply, but I find the topic rather important to breeders.  I'll try to fashion it such that you won't feel obliged to respond. The subject is rather complicated, and doesn't lend well to blog sound bites. Here, though, are a few more "bites":

    I am concerned about the methods many employ to evaluate genetic worth, and due to this the potential near extinction of valuable genes (i.e. potentially "rare + alleles, and/or relatively superior gene clusters w/i a chromosome)...Tom Fool and, perhaps his son, Buckpasser, may be notable examples. Both are among the most gifted and better bred runners ever. In the case of Tom Fool, one could arguably posit that no horse, ever, can match his combination of racing, sire, and broodmare sire stats. As a runner and broodmare sire, Buckpasser was comparable, and while not as good a sire as was Tom Fool, still distinguished himself-note, for example, his lifetime AEI. So, here's a bit of blasphemy-Tom Fool was unquestionably (and individually) a (1) better runner, a (2) better sire, and a (3) better broodmare sire than was Northern Dancer. Same applies to Buckpasser vs Northern Dancer for (1) and (3), with (2) up for grabs-I realize that few would agree with my (2) assessment. Where a Tom Fool and Buckpasser fell short with respect to a Northern Dancer is in the (4) sire of sires category-the "publicity" category. I am not suggesting that (4) is of lesser significance than those others, but rather that it should not be assigned greater weight when attempting to evaluate "genetic worth". One can certainly debate where (4) should be placed within the hierarchy (you'd likely place it first), but it would require a lengthly discussion (there is evidence both for and against).

    sceptre 28 May 2010 9:40 PM

    Hi Sceptre,

    Genetic worth is probably something that is very hard to evaluate objectively. If we looked at how often an individual stallion appears in pedigrees of major winners, it's probably going to bias towards sires of sires.

    On the other hand you get a horse like Mossborough - ordinary racehorse, decent sire who did get two expectional runners, Noblesse and Ballymoss - but subsequently important as he was by Nearco out of a three-parts-sister to Hyperion, and so a major foil for Nearctic.

    Tom Fool's been very important for his containing the Menow/Bull Dog gene cluster. His influence even spread to Australia through Silly Season, Lunchtime to Snippets (very Tom Fool-looking horse). It's probably one of the reasons Nijinsky II has done well in Australia.

    Tom Fool combined with Bold Ruler (didn't work well close up for soundness reasons related to Pompey and the sister) has also become an important one deeper in pedigrees, especially for Gone West.

    Alan Porter 02 Jun 2010 10:21 AM

    Hi,

    Alan what do you think about Relaunch as a broodmare sire for Benchmark? It means inbreeding to The Axe II through daughters, adds more war admiral and what ever decent bottom half the broodmare brings.

    Thanks,

    Chris

    Chris 18 Jun 2010 1:51 PM

    In my opinion, Easy Goer was the best looking stallion I had ever laid eyes upon.  Striking looking.  

    Suzanne 29 Dec 2010 8:18 PM

    A colt named Rousing Sermon makes his first start tomorrow at Hollywood Park in a 2YO MSW for Cal breds.

    Rousing Sermon's pedigree seems interesting to me. He is by Lucky Pulpit. I know that his value would be more, as far as sales are concerned, if he was by Pulpit instead of his son, Lucky Pulpit. However, I like his pedigree anyway.

    Lucky Pulpit's BM sire is Cozzene (by Caro), and his dam line is the same dam line that Unbridled's Song came from.

    Rousing Sermon's BM sire is Awesome Again, who has done pretty well as a stallion, so that should not hurt. The sire of his second dam is Alydar. After reading this article and thread, I feel confident that having Alydar as Rousing Sermon's second damsire is definitely a good thing.

    Rousing Sermon's third damsire is Wajima, a very good racehorse and son of Bold Ruler. Wajima didn't do particularly well at stud, but I believe that there is some good stuff in his pedigree. Fourth damsire is Barbizon, a son of Native Dancer's sire, Polynesian. I think that Barbizon was a good sire.

    I like Rousing Sermon's dam line. They are good producers right up to Rousing Sermon's dam, Rousing Again, who has only produced a couple of horses so far, including Rousing Sermon, as far as I know. A couple of the mares on the dam line were good race horses.

    Also, Rousing Sermon is inbred to Mr. Prospector 4x5. This is nothing strange with so many horses with Mr. Prospector in their pedigrees. Alydar is kind of like a brother to Mr. Prospector (same sire (Raise A Native) and same grand broodmare sire (Nasrullah)). Not sure what it means, having Mr. Prospector (twice) as well as Alydar in the same pedigree, but my guess is that it is a good thing.

    So, everything looks good to me, pedigree wise. Now it is just a question of what Rousing Sermon can do at the racetrack. We may find out some answers to that tomorrow at Hollywood Park.

    John 04 Jun 2011 6:52 PM

    Nice win, John!

    Ian Tapp 06 Jun 2011 9:56 AM

    Thanks. I wish that I had a bundle of money on Rousing Sermon because he went off about 6 to 1. However, I am glad that he won. I hope that he stays healthy and has a nice career. I should enjoy following it.

    John 06 Jun 2011 10:19 PM

    Late to the conversation, but I thought it might be interesting to add this.  I have a Wheaton mare I plan to breed this spring.  I've been on the fence for a few years about her because she didn't do anything in her 6 starts, but once I got her glued back together and galloping well for fox hunting I found that she could gallop all day and was pretty quick.  She could also jump anything.  So if I don't get a racehorse I may get a steeplechaser.  I'll be back in a few years to let you know what happens.

    Powys 30 Jan 2012 10:31 AM

    Every comment here is beneficial to a newby to the industry (one mare so far).

    For one thing, I'd love to be in a room with Ian, Alan and Sceptre for about 8 hours. Somehow I think that would turn into 8 days, but that's OK for one who spent four months picking pedigrees, records and potential apart prior to writing a check.

    I love these blogs~!

    Sandcreek 12 Jan 2013 8:58 AM

    Hi

    I have just bought a filly to use as a foundation mare and she is by holy roman emperor out of a mare by alysheba. I'm based in England and was looking for a stallion with alydar breeding and wanted a few opinions on using him with my filly next year. His is peintre célèbre ? Any opinions on this cross will be appreciated! Thanks

    Gavin 18 Jul 2013 8:14 PM

    I thought it would be best to explain a little bit about the pedigree so people could get a better idea of it and give their opinions from what the facts of the pedigree says! My filly is called tomintoul magic, she was 2nd in a English maiden, she never got the chance to show her true colours on the track as she was being used as a work horse for a filly that won a 1000 guineas trail and it blew her head! Tomintoul magic is by a son of danehill in holy roman emperor, her 1st dam is trios graces by alysheba and her 2nd dam is champion 2yr old ancient regime by olden times. Trios graces has bred 2 European listed winners in flat spin( by a Nureyev son spinning world) and abbeyside (by a danehill son danehill dancer) and she has a Galileo daughter that produced a holy roman emperor filly called smashing to win the listed India oaks and 2 other listed races in India. Ancient regime her 2nd dam, produced 6 winners, 4 of them listed and group winners, rami by riverman, crack regiment by el gran señor, filly la grande époque by lyphard and dancing maestro by Nureyev. I hope this can give an idea of how the pedigree works and I can get some usefully opinions on this! As I said had a son of Nureyev out of a alydar mare called peintre célèbre I mind for this filly! Thanks

    Gavin 19 Jul 2013 6:07 AM

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