Home

0609759
Ratings Generated in 2014
Featured Stallion

Poll Question: Zenyatta's Mate

For Zenyatta's eventual first year in the breeding shed, which of these high-profile, proven Kentucky stallions would you select? Explain your choice in the comments section below. Healthy debates are encouraged.


Below are links to TrueNicks reports for each hypothetical mating. You may also click here for a list of all subscribed stallions.

A.P. Indy - Zenyatta

Awesome Again - Zenyatta

Dynaformer - Zenyatta

Empire Maker - Zenyatta

Giant's Causeway - Zenyatta

Indian Charlie - Zenyatta

Medaglia d'Oro - Zenyatta

Pulpit - Zenyatta

Smart Strike - Zenyatta

Tapit - Zenyatta

Tiznow - Zenyatta

Unbridled's Song - Zenyatta

Filed under: ,

196 Comments:

Where is Point Given? He is the best sire in the last 20 years and would be a great match with the big beast!!

Jason Shandler 18 Jun 2010 3:30 PM

Shandler,

You're infatuation with the great Point Given knows no bounds...

Maybe you should buy Zenyatta privately and breed her to Point Given each season?

Ian Tapp 18 Jun 2010 3:38 PM

It has been reported that Zen may go to Sea the Stars on retirement. Who knows if that's true but why not list some of Europe's top stallions?

sidekickflats 18 Jun 2010 3:42 PM

I say put them all in a field,play some music,whoever is the best dancers wins a chance with Zen!

Tracy 18 Jun 2010 3:48 PM

Dyanformer, while he is still with us, for sure. That cross should result in a hardy individual with lots of heart.

After that, I think Giant's Causeway would be a splendid choice.

Flora 18 Jun 2010 3:49 PM

I would say Point Given should be given a date with Zenyatta.  He has been a great sire also and he has ran races against the Best Horses of his day.

Tara 18 Jun 2010 4:00 PM

Point Given is almost a giant, a very tall horse measuring 1,75 m at his shoulder. How could he be a good match for Zenyatta? I'd go with A.P. Indy (inbreeding to Princequillo and the X-Factor) or the great Europeans for a different approach, maybe Monsun.

Gabriel Leme 18 Jun 2010 4:04 PM

Ok, where is Sea The Stars and Rock Hard Ten????

DinkyDiva 18 Jun 2010 4:05 PM

I think that the cross of A.P. Indy and Zen would be fabulous!!!  That way too, you wouldn't have to worry about the size as much as you would if you were to breed her to Sea The Stars.

DinkyDiva 18 Jun 2010 4:14 PM

Keep her away from headcases, the overly large, and the unsound. So that eliminates at the very least: Pulpit, Dynaformer, and Unbridled's Song. I'd avoid Smart Strike too, because of severe inbreeding.

I like the Giant's Causeway cross; dirt and turf crosses, and Giant's Causeway sired the new record holder for 20 furlongs in the Ascot Gold Cup, so we know he can throw a stayer when bred to a long-winded mare.

Jacquibs 18 Jun 2010 4:19 PM

Sea The Stars, should be her first mate. They are both known and respected from around the world,

Her second mating should come from an American horse..Go with A.P. Indy since he has Secretariat bloodlines.  Then, let her be bred to Smart Strike......

sodapopkid 18 Jun 2010 4:22 PM

What?  Curlin's not on the list?  He would be my pick.

Rocklady 18 Jun 2010 4:23 PM

Of the named, I would have gone for A.P. Indy, but I chose "other" because I'd like to see her have a date with Einstein.

Slew 18 Jun 2010 4:23 PM

I like the idea of Giant's Causeway. He's highly successful, he's a little smaller, and most important, he doubles up that Roberto blood.

Either that, Tiznow, to get a great, big, black son-of-a-gun that just won't quit.

Tiznowbaby 18 Jun 2010 4:24 PM

Tiznow.  That baby would be extremely determined not to lose.  

Karren 18 Jun 2010 4:26 PM

What about a Curlin/Zenyatta match?

Lonnie 18 Jun 2010 4:43 PM

 I'VE BEEN WAITING ON A POLL LIKE THIS SO I COULD VOTE FOR MEDAGLIA D' ORO!!!!  LOVE THAT HORSE!

Darla 18 Jun 2010 4:52 PM

It is hard not to like either Medaglia D'oro or Giants Causeway with Zenyatta.

I also like the size of Indian Charlie to balance her out so her foal doesn't come out to be 18 Hands! Her size gives her some limitations just like Tough Tizs Sis, this is why I wouldn't mate her to Dynaformer.

It will be fun to watch some of the foals of these great runners like R2R, Azeri, Ginger Punch, Tough Tizs Sis, Bear Now, Rachel, and Zenyatta.  Some may make it to the track, others not, but it will be fun to watch them grow!

TJLuvsTizs 18 Jun 2010 4:54 PM

Curlin! My prediction is Jess Jackson will buy at least a piece of Zenyatta before she is retired, and given Mr. Jackson's goal of breeding the next generation of super horses I think it makes sense.

Lizo 18 Jun 2010 4:55 PM

Genetics is a tricky thing, but I believe that breeding a very large mare like Zenyatta to a large sire would be an undesirable match.  Point Given (as well as Dynaformer and Unbridled's Song) are all big horses at 17.0 hands.  As such, they would be undesirable matches.  I like Medaglia d'Oro of the sires listed above as he would add a wide mix of new and desirable bloodlines and could inject some needed speed influences (but not too much) in the offspring.

FourCats 18 Jun 2010 4:59 PM

Love Zenyatta x Medaglia d'Oro.  That foal would be born with wings, especially if it were a filly.  Z comes from family of strong girls, and we all know what Medaglia d'Oro's fillies can do.  I'm especially intrigued by the complete lack of inbreeding.

Sheepish 18 Jun 2010 5:06 PM

I don't think it will matter who she breeds to her first year, or thereafter.  It's likely that the foal will, as is the case with most great race mares, never live up to the expectations heaped on the poor little thing.

EMD 18 Jun 2010 5:10 PM

I'd probably breed her to Indian Charlie. It's well documented that Indian Charlie does quite well with Mr. Propector-line (Zenyatta through Street Cry, etc.), but he's also shown a marked affinity for Hail To Reason-line mares (Zenyatta has a double). Equally as important is the fact that Indian Charlie is an exceptional sire, and is an influence for speed without confining to mere sprinter status. He is, however, on the tall side, and some of his offspring have soundness issues (recall that Zenyatta's front leg conformation isn't the best, and she's quite big and tall to boot). Still, Indian Charlie can often sire a beautifully balanced, well-muscled medium sized sort, so he's probably worth the risk for her from the conformational standpoint. I'm not an A P Indy fan, but do feel that he's a quite good cross-pedigree-wise (like the Slew with Street Cry and *Forli), and conformationally. Problem is there are fertility issues, and he's getting up there in age-probably not worth the risk. Dubawi somewhat intrigues, because he'd cause a double to Mrs. Peterkin, may be the perfect physical type for her, is turfy, and shows much promise. But little else about his pedigree seems to appeal for Zenyatta. Danehill Dancer also seems strong, but Monsun seems to prefer Northern Dancer-line mares. That said, breeding her toward the turf may be the way to go.      

sceptre 18 Jun 2010 5:10 PM

I for one, dont think Point Given is the best sire in the last 20 years. Not even close. I am concerned with the size of some of these stallions. Zenyatta is big enough without breeding her to an Unbridleds Song or Dynaformer that are like, Zenyatta, over 17 hands. It will be a difficult foaling for her, especially the first foal. She needs a smaller stallion like Medaglia D'oro or Hard Spun. Just my opinion.

Criminal Type 18 Jun 2010 5:37 PM

What about Elusive Quality? I think he would be a good match! But out of this list I'd say AP Indy or Medaglia D'Oro

brburton 18 Jun 2010 5:53 PM

I would mate her with Curlin. He is a beautiful red boy and retired healthy as he was while he was racing. Maybe Jess Jackson would give a discount if Rachel and Zenyatta don't ever meet up ha ha.

Rita 18 Jun 2010 5:55 PM

I think it should be Smart Strike. He has had some good success with Curlin and Lookin At Lucky.

AshleyMac 18 Jun 2010 6:01 PM

Zenyatta is a very special horse in that she can overcome her lack of early speed with an awesome turn of foot in the lane.  Unfortunately, this often converts to offspring oriented even more so and we have few races in the US for 10f and up.  Therefore, it would be nice to include some sires with more significant early foot and to include international options like Pivotal and Encosta de Lago, sires proficient at imparting early speed in the their get.

American Dad 18 Jun 2010 6:08 PM

I know big Horses don't always breed big horses. But my god if Zenyatta bred to Point Given the horse would end up being 18+ hands if he/she was anything like the parents.    

The Fish 18 Jun 2010 6:16 PM

Tiznow would be the best.

JMAC 18 Jun 2010 6:39 PM

How about Curlin?

DPowell 18 Jun 2010 6:46 PM

My first choice for Zenyatta would be Giant's Causeway. A 16-hand stallion with a lot of speed and quality. He's had good horses on all surfaces - very versatile. His dam was a good racemare by Rahy, one of my favorite broodmare sires. My second choice would be Smart Strike, a similar stallion in many respects. Zenyatta has no Northern Dancer or Seattle Slew in her pedigree, and only one distant cross of Mr. Prospector, so you could breed her to almost anyone. I'd look to downsize a little, and maybe inject a little early speed. (My heart says breed her to Holy Bull!!)

Ceil 18 Jun 2010 6:56 PM

I was just having this conversation a few days ago. I wish Tiznow was an option.

Bryn 18 Jun 2010 7:27 PM

AP Indy brings SomethingRoyal  into the mix.  The promise of great stamina and speed.

Terlingua 18 Jun 2010 7:50 PM

ITapp, LOL!

Anyway, I like the cross with Dynaformer because it gives inbreeding to Roberto. But I think I like Big Brown better for a few reasons: Inbreeding to Roberto, also to Forli; physically they're a good match; and lastly while they both are very competitive, they are both also exceptions in having pleasant temperaments.

Karen in Indiana 18 Jun 2010 8:41 PM

I chose A P Indy because he is a known, proven sire of quality who has already influenced the breed.  By selecting him, I would hope to make the best of Zenyatta's chances of contributing her qualities to the future TB.  

I did not consult photos of either individual to be certain of the wisdom of this choice--this is a purely pedigree selection.

Qatmom 18 Jun 2010 8:42 PM

Ghostzapper!

GoldenBroom 18 Jun 2010 9:00 PM

Giant's Causeway. Zenyatta is probably proven herself the greatest mare of all time. She has excelled on synthetics and dirt. I am thinking Giant's Causeway for the turf influence. This would make for the perfect all course foal. Let's think Secretariat re-incarnated.

Kenny 18 Jun 2010 9:18 PM

Distorted Humor

Larry 18 Jun 2010 9:35 PM

I'd have to go with Smart Strike... if just for Lookin At Lucky... but what about Birdstone? His first crop, Summer Bird and Mine That Bird.

And Dynaformer would make a monster of a foal... also a classic like A.P. Indy... good thing she'll have lots of foals, so many stallions will work well with her...

Birdstone... 18 Jun 2010 9:36 PM

A.P. Indy is 21 years old, so Zenyatta better get in his book before it is too late. I'd also like to see Zen with Smart Strike, but that can wait a few years.

MRO 18 Jun 2010 9:47 PM
Tiznow is an option, he's listed below Tapit...
ITapp 18 Jun 2010 10:03 PM

Curlin. Strong, consistent horse who proved that he could take distance and stay under pressure. Plus, Zenyatta's and Rachel's Curlin babies can race. ;)

MTBFan(still) 18 Jun 2010 10:30 PM

Sea of the Stars- We see so much of Kentucky Stallions. She is a great race mare and maybe it is time to show this industry whats up by trying something new and innovative!

Jennifer Keenan 18 Jun 2010 10:52 PM

It really is a tough choice!

Sarah 18 Jun 2010 10:59 PM

Gotta go with A.P. Indy -- at least the first year, lest he no longer be with us later in Zen's broodmare career.

Being partial to both Giant's Causeway and Dynaformer, they'd be on my shortlist, too -- although given the size the resulting foal from the latter cross would be, the Mosses would need to be patient with the result!

Finally, you can't discount the lure of a MdO/Zen cross, given how well the nick worked for Rachel Alexandra, LOL.

Old Topper 18 Jun 2010 11:02 PM

Well, of the choices Dynaformer would have to be at the top of my wishlist (too bad they won't breed him to maiden mares) for her with Indian Charlie a very close second.  Frankly, I'm not all that excited about any of them.

Doesn't really matter since, from what I remember, she's already been more or less committed to Sea The Stars upon retirement.

Personally, I'd love to see what she'd throw to Orpen a couple times.  Love the Raise the Standard inbreeding.

Sam 18 Jun 2010 11:32 PM

Don't anyone laugh--I still say Birdstone. I believe thhe Mosses have said they are looking for a smaller stallion to balance with Big Z. He has proven speed and stamina. And proven winners.

Barbara W 18 Jun 2010 11:41 PM

I picked Medaglia d'Oro so maybe this "East Coast Rachel" and West Coast Zenyatta" is better will finally end. Rachel is Medaglia's daughter and Zenyatta being bred to him, would almost make the two best present day fillies equal!! I am tired of the bickering folks. Let's enjoy them both for the greatness that they are!! It's a pity they blossomed in the same few years. Imagine enjoying Zenyatta for a few years, and after her retirement, along come Rachel and we all can enjoy her excellence. My pick for breeding had no real thinking in it, just a passion to enjoy two great mares and wanting horse racing fans to admit there can be two fantastin fillies at the same time and we can love them both!

Lori 18 Jun 2010 11:51 PM

Giant's Causeway would be my choice. His offspring can run on anything and they tend to have that tenacity he showed in spades. Also, he is more of a medium sized horse and I would think you would want to offset her size.

General Assembly 19 Jun 2010 12:25 AM

As a point of interest, TrueNicks gives Jason Shandler's Point Given-Zenyatta mating a "C."

Kathy 19 Jun 2010 12:59 AM

summer bird....my  best choice ***

william 19 Jun 2010 2:15 AM

A.P. Indy: great sire, A++ TrueNicks, and he's 21 already.  Also tempted by Dynaformer, who's an A in TrueNicks, as this cross produced Barbaro and Dynaformer is already 25.

Laura P 19 Jun 2010 5:34 AM

There is but one choice.  If any of those making comments had bothered to do a little research and actually made the match and studied the match you would see that Mizzen Mast is clearly and easily the only choice.  Firstly there is no Northern Dancer or Raise a Native in MM. Secondly, MM is a perfectly built stud who passes on great conformation. Thirdly and this is huge, you get tail male and tail female to Mrs. Peterkin, 3 x 5.  I would appreciate comments from those who actually study the art of breeding.  I have studied about twenty matches with Zen and I cannot find one that is close to be this good.

dave york 19 Jun 2010 6:54 AM

Oooooh, I like the idea of a Summer Bird - Zenyatta foal. :)  I know it doesn't sound that prestigious, but Summer Bird was quite consistent and a definite dirt horse, while Zenyatta is more synthetic.  If all went well, you'd get a horse that could run on everything!

Sarah 19 Jun 2010 7:04 AM

I bet J.Jackson will buy Zenyatta's first foal, Unless of course the Mosses want her first baby.

Curlin,AP Indy, Sea The Stars,

With any one of these prospects, can you imagine how much they could get for these foals..........Especially when you cross A.P.Indy/Zenyatta  you get Zen with Secretariat bloodlines in there,  Now that should bring a mint at auctions, I dont think they would make it to auctions, they would have private buyers waiting to purchase them...........

sodapopkid 19 Jun 2010 7:22 AM

I am off the board with this. I would like to see Zenyatta mated with California sire Unusual Heat. To try to reinvigorate the Hyperion line and hopefully get a California Super-Horse or at least get a superior mare for this sire. A guy can dream...Can't he?

TexSpect 19 Jun 2010 7:23 AM

Giant's Causeway would be a similar cross to the one that produced Shamardal. loads of Hail to Reason there

wallinga 19 Jun 2010 7:24 AM

My first choice is Curlin, who is not on the list???? I thought he was a planned stud?

Rachel's sire seems a logical choice otherwise. Add a little more speed, to Zenyatta's size. Wow!

Amy 19 Jun 2010 7:25 AM

Ok, so it does nothing for the Hyperion line, but it has Forli 4X4.

TexSpect 19 Jun 2010 7:30 AM

Red Giant.

Runracehorse 19 Jun 2010 8:12 AM

I love Sea the Stars.  I just met him in Ireland.  The only problem is she might be too big for him!  That is what the farm manager said!  He is only 16.2 hands.  

Pesonally a Rock Hard Ten/Zenyatta baby would be the best!  The most beautiful horse in the land.  Plus they have similar running styles that is would be great!

Larissa 19 Jun 2010 8:29 AM

I say Dynaformer because of his age and all the black type.  For a bit of irony, I say Medalgia D'Oro.

Barry 19 Jun 2010 8:36 AM

I'd like to see her go to Montjeu or maybe Galileo.  In America, maybe a smaller stallion would be the better choice.

Footlick 19 Jun 2010 8:53 AM

sea of stars-zenyatta the best whith the best

sea of stars 19 Jun 2010 8:57 AM

None of the above,

They all have lost at least once.

We need to find another undefeated champion stallion.

Mickey 19 Jun 2010 9:12 AM

Zenyatta, is a very large mare and actually larger than most stallions. As the videos of her last race show that when in action it is her exceptional structural correctness, inspite of the great size, that provides the freakish mechanical ability to stay sound and keep on stretching her stride. The sire selected for her should compliment her strong points yet moderate her size and gor this the European elite runners come closer than most Kentucky stallions. The young horse that just won the Derby at Epson, bred and owned by Juddmonte Farms seems ideal in phenotype and in pedigree to match up with this great but giant mare amd produce runners with ability and the structural correctness to remain to take training and racing while remaining sound.

Birdfinder 19 Jun 2010 9:20 AM

No to any Mr. P stallion.  Rules out Smart Strike, Curlin etc.  No to AP Indy--fertility issues.

No to the big boys, Dynaformer, UBS, Indian Charlie, Tiznow.

Giant's Causeway, yes. Not opposed to Awesome Again or MDO. Hard Spun could be an option, if his babies run. Sea the Stars, while fabulous, is totally unproven as a stallion.  Maybe later in his breeding career.

My choice is Bernardini. good physical match, love the AP Indy line over Zen's Mr P line.  

pg303 19 Jun 2010 9:25 AM

Tiznow.  Zenny and he are both big horses with durability and great heart.

kk 19 Jun 2010 9:34 AM

My Choices:

1. AP Indy - he's 21 yrs. old, he's still fertile

2. Medaglia D'Oro - goes wonderful with mares out of Mr. P Line (RA is one)

3. Giant's Causeway - like Shamardal,great horse.

g 19 Jun 2010 10:11 AM

Cosmonaut

New Orleans Zulu 19 Jun 2010 10:53 AM

I would really like to see her crossed with Dynafomer.  The foal would have a lot stamina, also a GSV of 73.27. With the cross based on, Barbaro, Film Maker, Gozzip Girl, Riskaverse, Wiener Walzer. They were all G1 winners on dirt and turf!  

Elizabeth 19 Jun 2010 11:29 AM

Give her a year or two of rest after she retires! Everyone needs a break and carrying a foal is hard on a mare. People need to stop using and using these animals for their own needs. Let her rest and relax for a while.

Smarie 19 Jun 2010 11:39 AM

dynaformer shouldn't be on the list because he doesn't cover maiden mares anymore.

anna 19 Jun 2010 11:47 AM

I think she should go with Big Brown, no one else mentioned him.

Just think it would be a good match.  I know nothing about the breeding just like Big Brown.

Lena 19 Jun 2010 12:22 PM

Where is Distorted Humor, one of the hottest stallions today? I don't know what the True Nick would read, but he deserved to be on the list. Based on the nicks, it was a choice between A P Indy and Dynaformer, with Dynaformer having more G1 offspring in the cross.  

Sandy 19 Jun 2010 12:33 PM

I'm surprised Smart Strike is getting so much attention given Mr. Prospector inbreeding. I put one Mr. P son on the list out of curiosity. Smart Strike, Kingmambo, Distorted Humor, Elusive Quality, and Mr. Greeley are all top stallions, but I doubt the Mr. P inbreeding would be seriously considered.

Also, these choices include proven stallions having crops of racing age. Bernardini, Big Brown, and Curlin are unknown quantities at this point. Same for Sea the Stars, and this list was confined to Kentucky stallions.

dave york,

I'm intrigued by the Mizzen Mast angle. He hasn't done well with Mr. P line mares as a group (TrueNicks D), but the Princequillo/Mrs. Peterkin crosses are interesting. I can also see him crossing well physically.

Can you think of any successful racehorses with tail female inbreeding from sire and dam? Outofthebox comes to mind, but there must be more.

Ian

Ian Tapp 19 Jun 2010 12:36 PM

One son of A P Indy that I haven't seen mentioned yet as a possibility is Mineshaft.  He is showing considerable promise now, and it's gratifying to me because I predicted that he could end up being 'Indy's best at the end of the day.  This cross carries a TrueNicks rating of A++, and if you are going to have Mr. Prospector inbreeding, this is the very best way to do it.....3S x 4D and sex-balanced to boot, through Mineshaft's dam and Zenyatta's sireline.

The more I look at it, the better I like it.

Paseana 19 Jun 2010 12:36 PM

Sandy,

We didn't want to have too many Mr. Prospector line stallions on the list since Zenyatta is also from this line, but perhaps Distorted Humor (by Forty Niner, by Mr. P) should have been included along with Smart Strike (by Mr. P). He has done well with Mr. Prospector line mares (TrueNicks B+), getting G1 winner Flower Alley and G2 winner Sharp Humor.

Ian

Ian Tapp 19 Jun 2010 12:43 PM

birdstone, he's small; he has shown he can sire horses with heart, stamina, and triple crown potential; and the offspring might be a rare horse for all surfaces--poly, dirt, off, and maybe even grass...whoever the breed her to, they should name the foal zephyros or zephyra (the male and female forms of the greek name of "the west wind"

papillon 19 Jun 2010 12:46 PM

Paseana,

I see your reasoning for Mineshaft who is a solid stallion. What are your thoughts on Pulpit, another A.P. Indy/Mr. Prospector cross?

Ian

Ian Tapp 19 Jun 2010 12:47 PM

Holy Bull.  But I also like the suggestion of Mizzen Mast.

Pasadena 19 Jun 2010 1:09 PM

Sea The Stars first. Curlin second. Medaglia D'Oro third.

Paula Higgins 19 Jun 2010 1:15 PM

How about a sire who might give Zenyatta's offspring more speed?  She's also been racing longer than your average racehorse, and occasionally this doesn't work out well when it comes to the birthing process. How much medication has she been given?  How much has it affected her uterine walls,etc.  Hopefully, all goes well, and Zenyatta remains healthy and happy.

AnnieO 19 Jun 2010 1:17 PM

Ian, on pedigree, Mineshaft and Pulpit are almost interchangeable, with the same preferable type of Mr. P inbreeding, and not surprisingly, the same A++ rating.  So if you like one, you can't really "not like" the other.

If I could choose whichever one I wanted, without regard to current sire performance (obviously Pulpit is the much more proven one), I would still go with Mineshaft.  For one thing, I frankly will lean toward youth as long as the promise is there.  But secondly, and most importantly, I love the duplication of Hoist The Flag that Mineshaft brings to the table through his second dam over Zenyatta's tail-female line.  Also, with Hoist The Flag, you get...by extension...Tom Rolfe, never a bad thing I would think!

Just my thoughts....

Paseana 19 Jun 2010 1:48 PM

Smarie, If Zenyatta was a wild mare living in a herd, She would already have had a couple foals. She is a healthy happy horse, there is no reason to give her time off before she becomes a broodmare. She is quite sound.

The reason Dynaformer does not cover maiden mares anymore is because he is a very agressive breeder. He is rough with the mares. Another reason is he is 25. Young inexperienced mares can be real fighters and it may be that the staff at Three Chimneys does not want to risk him being injured by a scared, panicing mare.

To whoever mentioned Hard Spun and IF his babies will run. Maybe they won't, but if they get his determination & heart, they have a better then average chance of being winners. Of course I don't know for a fact that they will run, but he has attracted some very good mares to his books so far, and the yearlings I've seen are all very nice looking individuals. However, He is still 16.2 I think, and his first foal weighed in at a whopping 142 pounds.

I too think she should see the best stallions in the world, she's earned it. Dalakhani, Galileo, Sea the Stars, Danehill Dancer would all be worthy of her, even Dalakhani's half brother Daylami should be considered, because in my opinion he accomplished a great deal more then Dalakhani and if not shipped off to South Africa would have attrated better quality mares.

She should skip Curlin, Let Racheal have him. I do not care for Curlin, I think most of his accomplishments were chosen very carefully by his connections. In my opinion his reputation is more Hype then Substance.

Criminal Type 19 Jun 2010 2:40 PM

Oh yea, Hard Spun has a front running style, which would hopefully lead to a foal who is a pace stalker, combining the styles of the sire & dam.

Criminal Type 19 Jun 2010 2:42 PM

Personally I'd love to see her go to Tiznow - complete outcross and he'd bring in Northern Dancer and Seattle Slew. Size on size - the Mosses are good to their horses and don't rush them, so I wouldn't worry too much. The only thing I'd worry about is Tiznow's feet, but when he was sound he was ace.

I would love to see her go abroad. Monsun and Galileo come to mind. There's Redoute's Choice in Australia, and a number of Sunday Silence stallions in Japan.

Justine 19 Jun 2010 3:03 PM

I think she should be bred to a european  or Australian champion.  I would select a stallion who retired rock-solid sound;  one who had no lameness issues during or after their racing career.  That would ensure that she does not pass on the brittle bones and chronic lameness problems these american-bred sprinters are passing on.  Take her to Europe or Australia and look for a stallion....

Whatever 19 Jun 2010 4:22 PM

First thought was Dynaformer, but he does not like maiden mares, maybe the second time around. It was a toss up between AP Indy and Giant Causeway and so opted for the latter.  He seems to do well in Europe and the USA but I know they want the very best and will have to wait and see if she goes to a European star or not.

lobieb 19 Jun 2010 4:29 PM

Yah know, I still pick A.P. Indy for the first date.  Simply because, it would be a fabulous cross with Zen and you wouldn't get the size factor.  I also like the idea of Birdstone (get him a latter though) LOL.....  I even thought about Medaglia d Oro.  How Ironic would that be but, a very nice cross.  Call the baby, Zoro.

DinkyDiva 19 Jun 2010 4:49 PM

Ian:

"...successful racehorse with tail-female inbreeding (linebreeding) from sire and dam..." Numbered Account comes readily to mind.

sceptre 19 Jun 2010 4:59 PM

Smart Strike.  A proven stallion with horses that have won graded stakes and run into the 4th year.  Smart Strike would enhance the stamina and speed.  

zengirl 19 Jun 2010 7:04 PM

Call the baby, Zoro.

DinkyDiva 19 Jun 2010 4:49 PM

Re: DinkyDiva, How about Z'Oro or Madam Z'Oro,  

or, Sea the Zee,  Sea Of Zen, SeaZen, I better stop , I could go on for a while with this.

sodapopkid 19 Jun 2010 7:09 PM

Medaglia d'Oro...no inbreeding, fast babies-especially fillies.  Also like Indian Charlie to add some speed. Would like to see a few crops from Sea The Stars before throwing him on my list. Wonder if a foal from that cross would be a turf specialist.

Diana 19 Jun 2010 7:30 PM

Hard Spun or Fusaichi Pegasus, stallions with good size and configuration and featuring Northern Dancer and his son Danzig within the first five generations could throw precocious offsprings with classic (Triple Crown)potential.  

Ranagulzion 19 Jun 2010 7:35 PM

If I had to pick a sire to mate with Zenyatta, it would either be Ravens Pass, or Manduro. Both stand at Stud in Kildare, Ireland.

SPLITS OF 12 19 Jun 2010 7:39 PM

After reading the comments posted by others... I like the idea of a "smaller" horse since she is so tall. Bred with a "dirt" horse might offset her "grass" winnings??

PLEASE, PLEASE leave Mr. Jackson out of this conversation ~ he's "bought" enough winning horses without him getting involved with Zen's breeding!

California Judy G Loves ZENYATTA 19 Jun 2010 7:43 PM

Whatever- didn't even think Australian.  That would be great too.

Footlick 19 Jun 2010 7:54 PM

I would like to see an "other" , Candy Ride , think this would be a great cross.

predict 19 Jun 2010 8:21 PM

Jump Start's her man.  She'll get the best of AP Indy and Storm Cat, and an up and coming sire.

JayArDee 19 Jun 2010 8:36 PM

predict,

I was thinking Candy Ride also... a beautiful stallion, well-balanced, not too big, and he'd seem to infuse speed without limiting stamina. A concern is that his sire line (Ride the Rails tracing to Fappiano and Mr. Prospector) has disappointed with Mr. Prospector line mares (TrueNicks D). However, Candy Ride does bring more Nashua and Hoist the Flag (both Machiavellian and Vertigineux carry Hail to Reason/Nashua/Hoist the Flag).

Ian

Ian Tapp 19 Jun 2010 9:11 PM

.......Looking Over The Charts ,.A Well Balanced Sire Would Be Giant's Causeway,....My Personal Pick Would Be Mineshaft ,...Blueblood That Runs Very Deep,........

Socko from Atlanta 19 Jun 2010 9:25 PM

To Dave York:

You appear to welcome comments on your "clear" "and only" choice of Mizzen Mast (for Zenyatta) so I'll comply. The authors of this TrueNicks blog often attempt to inform and educate and with no disrespect intended, your post somewhat defeats that purpose. You begin by scolding others for not spending the time to see what is so transparent to you; i.e. that Mizzen Mast is by far the best mate for Zenyatta. I've mated thoroughbred racers for nearly fifty years, and will admit that rarely, if ever, did I achieve your degree of certitude with a mating. Now, let's take a look at your rationale (you offer essentially three points): 1. Mizzen Mast possesses no Northern Dancer. My comment- Zenyatta is also free of Northern Dancer, so why would offering this to her be considered a negative? All else equal, I would tend to see him as a + for her since it would cause some linebreeding to Natalma-Almahmoud, has worked well with her sire, Street Cry, has worked well with Hoist The Flag, can be an influence for reduced, compact size, etc. etc. 2. You state that Mizzen Mast is a "perfectly built stud who passes on great conformation". My comment- If only that were true. I liked Mizzen Mast as a runner, and wanted very much for him to succeed as a stallion, because his pedigree contains two of my favorite (but too rarely seen) influences, Portage and Mrs.Peterkin. Conformation, however, is not among Mizzen Mast's assets. He is exceedingly straight hind-legged, and often sires that trait. He has some other issues as well, and I doubt that many horsemen would consider him good-looking. That said, I'm happy we have him, and he is a reasonably good stallion, but his record doesn't suggest he is deserving of a Zenyatta. 3. "You get tail-male and tail-female to Mrs. Peterkin". My comment-While your first two pieces of evidence contradict your overall assertion, this third bit of evidence is correct, and I do see it as somewhat a positive (see my previous post which included comments about Dubawi). Needless to say, though, this one potential positive is far from enough to send Zenyatta to Mizzen Mast... There is little in this life about which we can claim certainty. Mating horses is not among those.      

sceptre 19 Jun 2010 9:48 PM

Totally Point Given!!!!! I would love to see Zenyatta bred to Point Given!!!!

ZenyattaGirl12 19 Jun 2010 10:23 PM

I would mate her to something with speed and turf, then hopefully the foal could run on anything and be quite adept to run up front or from off the pace.

sondra sturgeon 19 Jun 2010 10:32 PM

I can't see how she could take a chance and be bred to Giants Causeway, My goodness, as big as he is and she is, the foals would come out the size of MTB, To small of a Stallion would have to stand on a platform to mount her,

She needs a medium size stallion.

Zenyatta is a serious girl, so he better bring chocolates/oats/peppermints and a cold Guinness for afterwards........

sodapopkid 19 Jun 2010 10:43 PM

Does anyone here consider the bloodlines as matchable, or is this another popularity contest.  Giant's Causeway, and A.P. Indy are the best on the list.  I like Rock Hard Ten also, but consider the size Rocky is BIG!!!  I do not know how his bloodlines work with hers either.  I personally like Smarty, but once again, I do not know enough about bloodlines.  I voted for Giant's Causeway, and I am glad Curlin isn't in the mix.  I love him, but he's not for every mare that comes off the track just because people like him.  

wendyg 19 Jun 2010 10:43 PM

sodapopkid,

I don't get your comment about Giant's Causeway. He's 16-1. I'd say he's the medium sized stallion you're looking for.

Ian

Ian Tapp 19 Jun 2010 10:52 PM

Can't really go wrong with Giant's Causeway. But on the other hand maybe I should have voted other and my other choice would have been Big Brown maybe.

anniedixie65 19 Jun 2010 11:07 PM

I would send her to AP Indy. He's an outstanding sire and probably doesn't have too many years left.

However, this is what I think Zenyatta's connections will NOT do. They won't take Zenyatta to Curlin, Smart Strike, or Medaglia d'Oro simply because of their connection to Mr. Jess Jackson.

440 yards 19 Jun 2010 11:27 PM

I know the choices were Kentucky stallions but I would go overseas. How about Oasis Dream or Dansili. Both 16 and change so the size would be right. Haven't done the nicks yet.

sidekickflats 19 Jun 2010 11:54 PM

Smart Strike would be my choice.  He is a proven top sire (Curlin, English Channel, Lookin at Lucky)as well as a rising broodmare sire(Mine That Bird). Smart Strike is only 16 hands and is also currently ranked #1 by average earnings index as a broodmare sire. Filly or Colt the offspring has the potential to be a superhorse.

I also read something about Giants Causeway's foals causeing their mothers difficulty during the birthing process.  That would be a tragedy.

I would also like to see Cape Cross considered. He has sired Sea the Stars and Ouija Board. Again this mating would have the potintial to produce a monster.

Two others I would love to see produce a male offspring are Elusive Quality (when I watched his speed on youtube my jaw dropped) and Candy Ride (an undefeated grade1 performer and top young sire).  If only I could hit the powerball:)

AprilCakes 20 Jun 2010 12:23 AM

PULPIT WOULD BE BEST SUITED. ANOTHER HORSE NOT MENTIONED IN THIS LIST BUT COULD BE VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH ZENYATTA WOULD BE BLUEGRASS CAT. GIANTS CAUSEWAY PROGENY HAVE A TENDENCY TO STAY SO I WOULD NOT CONSIDER HIM DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE HAS SIRED TOP CLASS MILERS ALSO. ZENYATTA IS BY STREET CRY OUT OF A KRIS.S MARE AND IF CROSSED WITH GIANTS CAUSEWAY WOULD PRODUCE A FOAL WHICH WOULD BE IDEALLY SUITED TO RUNNING AT DISTANCES OF A MILE AND A HALF AND BEYOND.

HSD 20 Jun 2010 12:26 AM

Justine....I can't believe you mentioned Monsun!  This thread is so fun just because it really gets you to play around with hypos, and Monsun is one that I tried Zenyatta with.  He is just about as pure a German-bred, at least through 3 generations, as you'll ever get.  If you hook him up with Zenyatta, you're obviously going to get an outcross in the first 4 generations.

It's my feeling that German-breds are as classy as any horses in the world.  We don't see very many German-breds in North America, and I suspect that it's because there's not many German-bred bleeders....does that say something or what!

But back to Monsun.  Lord Derby sent the incomparable Ouija Board to Monsun, and to his cover, she produced her second foal.  Jerry Moss might think out of the box enough to send Zenyatta across the pond to be bred, but I'm pretty sure that Ireland/England will be as far as she travels.

She's so sound, happy, and healthy.  I would love to see her visit Monsun.

Paseana 20 Jun 2010 12:49 AM

Thank You so much for bringing up this subject ! The two European stallions I like for Zenyatta are Cape Cross (Ire) and Monsun (Ger) I think AP Indy would be an excellent match ! Dosage Index of 2.62-CD +0.61 . I still see the best match as Giant's Causeway !

Pedigree Shelly 20 Jun 2010 1:15 AM

I would hope that Zenyatta would not be bred to Rock Hard Ten, being because Rock Hard Ten is sired by Kris S, who is Zenyatta's broodmare sire. Sorry too close for comfort in terms of inbreeding. If they were not that related, sure!

If we want to talk International influence there are some horses that I am listing that I have seen in physical close when my trip to Ireland in 08: Dalakhani (you have to see him! and he sired Conduit) also with the Aga Khan, their Azamour was the best looking one I had seen on my trip... Galileo (impressive individual 1/2 to Sea The Stars and My Typhoon)... Cape Cross was an amazing individual too... and he's proven with Ouija Board as well as Sea the Stars,etc. Authorized was another stunning individual.

And two from the Irish National Stud that were very gorgeous and proven are Verglas and Invincible Spirit.

Yeats , Duke of Marmalade, etc.

Keeping to this list it was hard to chose from A.P. Indy, Tiznow, and Giant's Causeway. Any one of them would do.

skip#1fan 20 Jun 2010 2:13 AM

Okay, I have a few questions and not too many answers, as I don't really like to give answers when I don't know what I'm talking about!

First, why not Empire Maker? I may be remembering incorrectly, but his offspring so far have been pretty good, haven't they? Is there just something about the cross in general, or is he just too risky as yet?

Second, gracious but AP Indy's popular! Is there a reason other than his obvious prowess and his advancing age for that to be so popular?

As for my picks, they're not based in science because I've never STUDIED the science...I wish Vindication were alive. I guess you could get the Seattle Slew AND throw in his dam's awesome lineage from AP Indy, but Vindication...eh. I just liked that horse's offspring, and I can't find the pictures now but he always seemed so well-built to me. Also, Hard Spun -- he was my horse for 2008 so maybe I'm biased, but he and that mare would make foals who chewed nails and shot bullets out the other end.

I also may have cheered for Medaglia d'Oro's defeat in 2002 (I was thirteen and picked the big black horse out of the parade, War Emblem won and I was over the moon), but from what y'all are saying that wouldn't be an entirely unreasonable pairing. Then, I'm a fan of irony as much as the next gal, so...

Amber 20 Jun 2010 2:33 AM

To Sceptre

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the comformation of MM, I agree he is straight legged.  you see that as a negative.  I do not.  So many current thoroughbreds are sickle hocked it is a shame and this is to a great degree a result of all the Northern Dancer influence over and over. Visually to me Zenyatta has this same characteristic. I do apologize if I am wrong on this but I think she was not raced early in her career for many reasons and one of the reasons is becuase she is not very correct in the hind end.  I am unaware of "other issues" with MM. I have recently bred two very different mares to MM. One foal is straight legged in the rear like MM and the other is much closer to the currently preffered hock angle. I like them both and MM improved the mares in both cases.  The main reason for my only choice angle is that I believe we should attempt to improve the breed overall.  There is a chance [very small but still a chance] that a mating with MM could prouce a stallion or mare for the ages.  If the only goal is to produce a racehorse then my clear and obvious choice comments are indeed incorrect.  If you are looking to produce a stallion or more likely a mare for the ages, I stand on my initial judgement and input.

Dave York

Dave York 20 Jun 2010 4:22 AM

I like Mineshaft (A++}...might be late maturing

Indian Charlie (A+) Tough to Tough

I'd probably, though, pick Pulpit (A++)

Rachel 20 Jun 2010 6:54 AM

ITapp,  True, but isnt all of his progeny big? Thats what I have heard.  I just thought if his progeny is big and Zen is big, wouldnt that more or less produce to big of a foal and cause her complications...........I still go with SEa the Stars, A.P.Indy, for her first two mating seasons...........

sodapopkid 20 Jun 2010 7:46 AM

Again, She is soooo special, So, her first mate should be a robust young stallion, very popular, achieved as great as she did in his racing career (I know all the ones listed have), He needs to be from over the pond, adding the European flare to the mix, and ranked as high as her rankings worldwide are, thats why Ian, her first mating will have to go Sea The Stars...........and we will name it SeaZen, SeaYatta, something like that......

sodapopkid 20 Jun 2010 8:02 AM

Ian, I must say, You picked a great topic for a blog, this is so fun and this blog can go on and on, trying to decide a mate for the big girl is awesome.....

sodapopkid 20 Jun 2010 8:04 AM

Definately AP INDY.....  without conversation.....

Horseman 20 Jun 2010 9:11 AM

To anyone who commented...though I love Rock Hard Ten, his sire Kris S. is Zenyatta's dam sire, and leaves too much inbreeding.

I'm sticking with Einstein....part of the Buckpasser line, and Einstein was excellent on any surface.

Slew 20 Jun 2010 9:13 AM

ITapp,

Quiet American has had a significant impact as a stallion. He is tail male + tail female. There are so many breeding theories that are not backed up by facts or statistics that I choose to breed where there is a factual advantage to the mating.  Using the "rasmussen factor" that being the using different offspring of the same mare through each side of the mating gives the breeder a much greater chance of breeding a stakes winning thoroughbred. The advantage more than doubles your chance of getting a stakes winner.  It might be a good idea for those who are actually breeding to read up on this breeding technique.  Multiples of the same mare can cause a genetic explosion.  Matings should improve the breed as a whole and create an opportunity to breed a horse for the ages.

Dave York

dave york 20 Jun 2010 9:16 AM

sodapopkid,

No, I wouldn't characterize Giant's Causeway's progeny and big across the board. He's a good-sized stallion, and I've seen all sizes of Giant's Causeways depending on the mare.

Unbridled's Song, Dynaformer, and Tiznow are stallions whose offspring are more consistently tall and "big."

Horses are a unique species as the size of the foal at birth is limited by the size of the mare's uterus and the nourishment it receives during gestation. A large stallion won't cause a large foal like it would with a cow or dog, though the foal may eventually grow to a larger adult size.

Ian

Ian Tapp 20 Jun 2010 9:59 AM

A P Indy first year, Giant's Causeway her second year.  

kathleen o 20 Jun 2010 10:55 AM

@Sodapopkid...you have so many names you ought to make a Zenyatta Baby Name book and send it to the Mosses!

This is fun to read, I really like the comments from those far more knowledgable about the ins and outs of breeding and pedigree than I do.

I would go for Medaglia D'Oro just for the fact that there is no inbreeding for five gens.

Thanks again, especially Sceptre, I enjoy your insight.

S.

SusanW 20 Jun 2010 12:25 PM

Zenyatta is a treasure, and as such I wouldn't gamble with her by breeding to unproven horses as, no matter what their racing talent, they can prove to be failures as sires (see Point Given; sorry Jason).  This eliminates, for the time being,  Hard Spun, Curlin and Summer Bird.  

Giant's Causeway is a good match physically, and look at Eskenderya, etc:  very good, versatile sire.

A side point:  I love Afleet Alex, and his first crop is running! What do you think of him, Ian?

Birdstone hasn't had anything running out of second crop.  

skyfire 20 Jun 2010 2:09 PM

I think a Danzig X. like Hard Spun.  You  have a smaller compact horse, with natural speed.

Mur A 20 Jun 2010 2:22 PM

I like Bluegrass Cat. He is proving able to sire winners. He needed to carry his speed farther.Zenyatta can go farther. Speed? What about Lion Heart and Speightstown? I would'nt breed to an unproven stallion no matter how great he ran. They can't always sire their ability.

JMcM 20 Jun 2010 2:23 PM

Lemon Drop Kid.......good versatile sire.

kenek 20 Jun 2010 2:35 PM

I chose A.P. Indy based first on his age and pedigree... then on his accomplishments as a runner and sire, then for his size. My second would be Giants Causeway for pretty much the same reasons as everyone else has stated.

When you have a mare like Zenyatta, you have many choices, and we can see those mentioned above... but I really like a small handful of others, as well, for "down the road" --- Sea The Stars, and remember his dam won the Arc and produced a few other nice ones, such as Galileo (!); then what about Invasor? He's unproven as a sire right now, but what a runner he was!!! And he was undefeated too. I really like Kingmambo, but he's by Mr. P, which might be too close a cross; then there's Kingmambo's younger half brother Mingun who is by A.P. Indy--- but the dam of both these is the great Miesque. I set great store by good race mares in a pedigree, and she certainly proved herself as a producer as well.

Hmmm... then farther down the road, what about such younger sires as Pollard's Vision... Wando... and the slightly older Stormy Atlantic who has enjoyed some success. Yes, I love Unusual Heat too, but he's getting up in years... and my especial favorite is the wonderful Sky Classic who is 23 this year... a distance horse for sure, but a durable horse with a long career and related through his dam to several excellent runners such as Sky Beauty among others.

Well, the Mosses are in the catbird seat... only one stallion would turn her away (Dynaformer) and that firstly because she would come in as a maiden. Few other stallion managers would say no if their horse were requested!!

And we should keep an eye on Zen's half sister Balance, to see how she produces...    

What fun. We will soon, within the next few years, be seeing the produce of the truly great race mares Ouija Board, Rags to Riches, Zarkava, Goldikova, Rachel Alexandra, and Zenyatta! WOW!

Watched the Royal Ascot meet on TV all week, and started speculating on seeing a Zenyatta offspring running there. Or in the Arc. The possibilities are endless. May she live long and be as good in the paddock as on the track.

longtimeracingfan 20 Jun 2010 3:13 PM

I can't begin to know anything about the science of mating, but I would like to reply to the post that stated that Dynaformer doesn't mate with maiden mares because he is an aggressive breeder. That's not what they told us at Three Chimneys when we were there. They told us he is kind to the mares, but not so much toward humans.

Slew,

I don't know about the matchup, but I'm an emotional fan of Einstein as well.

Barbara W 20 Jun 2010 4:17 PM

Okay, as a PS to my previous post, and Ian if I tread on your future subject I'm sorry--!!! -- after Curlin, which will be the first and probably second go-around for Rachel, who would you breed her to?? I'd try Smart Strike early on... and maybe Street Cry!!!

Fun to hypothesize, but we all know Jess Jackson has his own theories and maybe he will live long enough to see them come to fruition --- though, horses being horses, two HOYs may not produce much after all...

...or not.

longtimeracingfan 20 Jun 2010 4:22 PM

Love the A.P. Indy nick, but what about Afleet Alex?  A++  nick. There is a nicely made horse with heart and stamina to share.  He's producing some very nice runners.  I would love to see that cross.  Afleet Zen even sounds good.  

tbpartner43 20 Jun 2010 5:14 PM

Distorted Humor.

Tony S 20 Jun 2010 6:05 PM

I've seen some overseas stallions mentioned that I like - Monsun, Cape Cross - but from what has been said in the Zenyatta camp, she's not an easy shipper. Looking closely at her before the Vanity, she has lost weight and she just wasn't her usual self before the race. So I hope they don't ship her overseas if there is the possibility it would have a negative effect on her happiness. From what I've read, her dam and her half-sister Balance are pretty high-strung.

sceptre, I appreciate your postings. They are informative.

As much as I love Tiznow, he's really too big. Zenyatta was started late due to her size and she looks uncomfortable in the gate. Tiznow had back issues that may or may not have been related to his size. Someone's choice of Birdstone was interesting, though. They'd have to get him a ladder.

Karen in Indiana 20 Jun 2010 6:08 PM

I think we can settle this today there is none worthy of the Queen just let her be. She could always be a perfomer and dance.

Rita 20 Jun 2010 6:31 PM

I like Pulpit for Zenyatta. The offspring would be an A++ nick, with a higher variant than A.P. Indy, although Pulpit is an A.P. Indy son.  Nice distance, I'm not an Mr. Prospector fan. But line-breeding on Mr. Prospector would add some speed.

Emily 20 Jun 2010 7:30 PM

Another,"other" suggestion, would be to send her to France to "Haras de la Croix Sonnet" to meet Astarabad, I think this could be an amazing cross.

predict 20 Jun 2010 8:12 PM

Langfuhr or Smart Strike

Tiffany 20 Jun 2010 8:14 PM

MIDNIGHT LUTE!!!

G 20 Jun 2010 9:26 PM

Karen in Indiana.  I said the samething about Birdstone.  He would truy need a latter or put Zen in a ditch LOL.  That would be funny to see for sure. Teee Hee..

DinkyDiva 20 Jun 2010 9:37 PM

predict,

I like your line of thinking, but I'd send Zenyatta to Presenting or Oscar. You can probably get odds on the foal winning the 2020 Cheltenham Gold Cup.

Ian

Ian Tapp 20 Jun 2010 9:54 PM

The one horse worthy of the Queen sadly cannot reproduce.  That horse is Cigar. I hope they breed Zenyatta to the older stallions like A P Indy, Dynaformer, Langfuhr, etc. while they are still breeding.  Then there are so many good ones to look forward to a date with the Queen.  I just hope the Mosses keep her away from anything Mr. Jackson has his hands on.  Do not let him "buy" this greatness!!!

Lynnhurst 21 Jun 2010 12:42 AM

The Moss family might just go to Giacamo or Tiago

zen fan 21 Jun 2010 1:23 AM

 Tiznow-because he and Zenyatta will have back to back BC Classics.

gammyp6 21 Jun 2010 1:37 AM

This is in response to the post about Dynaformer being kind to the mares.  I went to Three Chimneys in October and we were told he was not kind to the mares and had to be muzzled during breeding due to him biting the mares.  

scpalohorselvr 21 Jun 2010 1:44 AM

I looked back at Zenyatta's pedigree and also like Dynaformer to repeat the Roberto, and/or Giant's Causeway with the Northern Dancer through Storm Cat to compliment the Mr. Prospector in her sire line.

EarlySpeed 21 Jun 2010 1:52 AM

No one has mentioned one of the best racehorses to retire in the US in the last few years, i.e. Invasor. 16.1 in his ads so probably closer to 16 even and a leaner type rather than the hulky type. Won 11 of 12. Nice outcross to the dominant US/Euro bloodlines on the bottom side. Son of a top sire. No foals to race yet is the downer. Old adage - breed young mares to older sires and older mares to young sires.

Ann in Lexington 21 Jun 2010 3:40 AM

Concerning Dynaformer. Regardless of whether or not he covers maiden mares, I'm sure an exception would be made for Zenyatta. I don't think there is a breeding farm out there that would turn Zenyatta away.

Jim 21 Jun 2010 7:42 AM

For all those commenting about smaller stallions and ladders, remember Northern Dancer had a pit for his use.

JCRobinson 21 Jun 2010 9:24 AM

Yup, the Dancer was able to get around his "short-comings", wasn't he?

Too bad he's not around today.  Couldn't you imagine a Northern Dancer - Zenyatta foal?  Wow!

So, for going outside the box, what about Encosta de Lago or Redoute's Choice.  Both excellent sires with plenty of Northern Dancer in them and I don't think either of them are largish horses.  

mz 21 Jun 2010 10:03 AM

I'm starting to think that Giacomo might not be a bad idea; his get are surprisingly precocious, although his stakes winners are in Texas.

Would make very an interesting outcross at the very least.

Justine 21 Jun 2010 1:23 PM

zenyatta-birdstone:

DI = 3.00

CD = .79

(for comparison: super saver =  3.00/.75)

DP = 4 3 7 0 0

inbreeding: mr. prospector 4s x 4d

           raise a native 5s x 5d

           gold digger 5s x 5d

papillon 21 Jun 2010 2:31 PM

What about The Green Monkey?

Matt 21 Jun 2010 9:00 PM

The very good sprinter, Thatching was by Thatch (third dam Dalmary) and had Dalmary as his own third dam.

Sadler's Wells had a grade one winner called Fatherland who was out of a sister to the granddam of Sadler's Wells.

Blue Larkspur is by Black Servant (granddam, Padua) and Padua was also his own fourth dam.

Anyway, that's few a few horses from the same immediate family as their sire that come to mind.

Alan Porter 21 Jun 2010 9:35 PM

More-same immediate family sire/dam:

Sea Hero, Relaxing (both again *La Troienne).

sceptre 22 Jun 2010 12:31 AM

More same-immediate family dam/sire:

Danehill  (Natalma up close both ways)

mz 22 Jun 2010 10:09 AM

zenyatta - einstein

DI = 2.56

CD = .69

DP = 4 3 9 0 0

No inbreeding

(for comparison, sunday silence 2.56/.69 /4 3 9 0 0 and summer bird 2.56/ .69/ 4 4 7 1 0)

i like this one, if i put up the $7500 can i have the foal?

papillon 22 Jun 2010 8:01 PM

MZ: Danehill is incorrect. We're looking for same tail female sire/tail female dam.

sceptre 23 Jun 2010 2:29 PM

I have not read all the posting but here's an interesting suggestion - Genuine Reward.

Pasadena 26 Jun 2010 5:34 PM

Itapp

I would appreciate your evaluation of the physical traits of Zenyatta. Secondly, I would really appreciate your evaluation of the cross with MM and the effect of the female in breeding.  The Debuatante was won yesterday at CD by a filly with the female inbreeding pattern I believe has merit.

dave york 27 Jun 2010 7:47 AM

So much knowledge, such great reading; thanks, Ian!!!

pg303, I like your ideas.  APIndy's fertility issue is too great a risk.  Bernardini would be my choice (APIndy sire, hypothetical foal=A++ TrueNick, 11.88 Variant).  

With regard to European stallions and Zenyatta not shipping easily, wouldn't it be a dream if Cape Cross would cross the pond to cover Zenyatta here.

woody 27 Jun 2010 10:56 AM

I would breed her w/ A.P. Indy because he is proven and Seattle Slew bloodline and the great Secritariat.... talk about a super horse. Remember Slew had the same pre race dance!!!!!!

will choice 31 Jul 2010 11:09 AM

Zenyatta's role as a preeminate female racehorse requires that she be given special opportunities as a broodmare.  In order for her to make a big difference she needs to be accorded as numerous opportunities as a stallion. The best stallions get thousands of chances and even then only a very small percentage pan out.  Special dispensation for her to have her embryos transferred to surrogate mares after artificial insemination is required.  There is no good reason to limit her get.  In this way, many potential crosses from different sires could be developed.  Granted, those who control the purse strings will never hear of such a thing.  Therefore, let's at least go for a large stallion such as the ones the rest of you eschew.  If there is going to be any significant improvement in the breed, the size factor must be considered.  Why do you think Arabians are faster than ponies and thoroughbreds are faster than Arabians? As long as conformation is good, the longer legs would make for a longer stride. The large heart factor is analogous to this thinking.  If all other factors are equal and the heart is healthy we  choose a larger heart don't we? Do any of you remember Forgo or hearing about Phar Lap?  They were large. Unfortunately, they had no offspring. Let the classic horses take longer for their development and let's start a Quadruple Crown for four year olds to encourage this change.

Originality 04 Aug 2010 3:59 PM

I had hoped for some response, but I still would like to add the following:  Does Zenyatta have the large heart gene?  She has Princequillo on the dam side but no War Admiral or other source I know about.   I think she'd have made a tremendous turf specialist.  Unlike with Secretariat, her people do not seem adventurous enough to try to find out.  They seem like wonderful people but I wouldn't put it past them to withhold her from the Breeder's Cup Classic until it returns to Santa Anita.  Joking.  Anyway, I have heard that many race mares prove unsuccessful.  Examples include Lady's Secret, Genuine Risk and Winning Colors.  It may be, as I wrote above, that mares need many more foals to get the ones who are really great.  Remember that Native Dancer had many full siblings and none of them were highly successful on the track.

Originality 14 Aug 2010 7:12 PM

Zenyatta

Quite late, I know.  I have to go off-list for stallions for this mare, too.

Given:  Sometimes I don’t know stallion’s size or other issues that are not apparent in pictures or literature on the horse.  Just a layperson here.

Hat Trick-

Miler from Japan. Ran fastest mile in Japanese history, if information is correct, also zero med policy in Japan. TrueNicks rates as A.  Examples though based on Japanese runners.  This horse might shorten up the offspring and if style of running is heritable, won’t change that, just might not run so far back.  Think this horse would improve her top line.  Brings in Halo top and bottom, some Ribot, and does not introduce any more Mr. Prospector blood. (Soundness issues always potential, IMHO) Tail female to sister of War Relic.  Actually, Hat Trick’s dam, Tricky Code, carries War Relic, Speed Boat, and Anchors Ahead.  That a 3x of full siblings.  A filly from this cross, back to Megadalia D’ Oro, who has another famous filly with a mare line with lot’s of this kind of family…… Or if Tricky Code is still alive, send her to Megadalia D’ Oro.  I think Sunday Silence got the short shrift from this country and Hat Trick is a chance to get some of that blood back.

Pleasant Tap-

Based on pictures only, another one seems conformationally suited to Zenyatta.  This rates a C+ in TrueNicks.  Mostly an outcross with Princequillo twice in the fifth.  Brings in Ribot.  Again, not sure Pleasant Tap wasn’t just a bit more than an 8 furlong horse.  Further back, Never Bend is repeated.

Stevie WonderBoy-

Although his sire, Stephen Got Even, gets an A++ and SWB a B, the SWB/Zenyatta type cross has produced the likes of I Want Revenge.  SWB has doubles of Weekend Surprise, brings in another cross of Roberto.  Would consider the potential of a sire producing pedigree from this one.  His dam also brings in a cross of Tom Fool in the mare line, as Zenyatta has.

Purim-

People wanted to cross Zenyatta with Dynaformer, but the resultant foal might be too big to race.  Probably the same problem here but this is another physical match (based on pictures only) I wanted to note.  No TrueNicks information on this one.  Brings in Roberto again, avoids Mr. Prospector, and Purim’s dam line goes to Aspidistra, dam of Dr. Fager and Ta Wee.

First Samurai-

Rates an A++ on TrueNicks.  Same kind of cross responsible for the likes of Shamardal.  Does bring Mr. Prospector back though.  Just didn’t see this horse considered for Zenyatta.

Again, any of these could just be too tall but hopefully, don’t exacerbate the situation by adding a lot of bulk (Quarter Horse type muscling) to the frame. (Not sure about First Samurai in that regard)

Horsefirst 23 Aug 2010 2:03 PM

How about something completely different. Redoubts Choice. A young stallion son of Danehill making a name for himself out of Australia.

Mz WTF 08 Sep 2010 4:54 AM

Here's one,

I was looking at Officer because of Boys At Tosconova.  I didn't like Officer for Zenyatta because of type.  However, his sire, Bertrando, is from the same mare line a Zenyatta, 4r.  Still not my favorite match on physical but the mare line is interesting.

It comes from a mare named Miss Obstinate. (Perhaps poetic as in, "Not gonna lose?") 1829 model. More, Z comes through a daughter of Obstinate named Mary Morris, sired by Medoc in turn sired by American Eclipse.

Bertrando comes through the same mare, Miss Obstinate, through another daughter named Ann Innis.  Ann Innis, in turn, was sired by American Eclipse.

Z's through a son of American Elipse crossed on Miss Obstinate, and Bertrando's through a direct mating of Miss Obstinate with American Elclipse. Just a bit more curious given the American Eclipse cross.

Z wouldn't even have to leave California?  He's 16.2

Horsefirst 08 Sep 2010 8:36 PM

Re:  Miss Obstinate

Talk about mare power.  Of course, things like this were more common then.  The pedigree of Miss Obstinate gives you Jane Hunt twice in her dam line, which gives her grand dam, Maria Slamerkin twice in her dam line, plus Maria Slamerkin is the great grand dam of Miss Obstinate's sire, Sumpter.  Then, the sire of Sumpter's dam, Robin Redbreast, has Papilion as the dam of his sire and his dam.

Miss Obstinate had three daughters.  The two daughters already mentioned, on an American Eclipse cross, come down today in the dam lines of Zenyatta and Bertrando.  The third daughter, by Glencoe, in a brief although by no means conclusive search, I couldn't find anything beyond horses that ended up in mid-west and western states.

Apologies for getting so off track...

Horsefirst 08 Sep 2010 9:45 PM

I vote WAR EMBLEM.  He was a freak of a horse.  Sent to Japan.  Very picky and shy.  Bring him back to the USA.  

zuzuzpetals 31 Oct 2010 9:52 PM

Commenting because we lost Pleasant Tap.

How about a very close relative, Go For Gin?

I know, he's in Maryland now standing for less than three-year old retiree's because of fractures....

Same dam as Pleasant Tap, also a grandson of His Majesty.

Keeps any more Prospector out of the pedigree and also no Northern Dancer. With Zenyatta's size, I would not introduce any more of those lines.

If one were breeding for a potential out cross stallion....

Horsefirst 01 Nov 2010 2:13 PM

Okay, it's been a while since anyone commented on Zenyatta's first mate, but here's my pick:  Deep Impact! A superhorse in Japan, he probably would have been great racing elsewhere too. He brings in that tough Sunday Silence tenacity, along with speed, and stamina.  And he's not too large.  Think about it!

KathPoet 04 Nov 2010 11:26 AM

mineshaft is perfect ap indy stallion he's fast well built

mineshaft 18 races zenyatta 20 races

dp 8-6-14 cd 79 gsv 66.80

secretariat 07 Nov 2010 8:00 PM

She was so close!  A shame she didn't quite get there.  A lack of early speed definitely hurts.  It occured to me today that Storm Cat, although pensioned, could be brought back for one last command performance.  Im sure this is just wishful thinking, but I hope this at least occurs to the moss family.

AprilCakes 07 Nov 2010 9:46 PM

Giant's Causeway, he's making great babies ans so would Z

SHERI 10 Nov 2010 7:45 PM

Zenyatta should mate with Curlin. He's the best horse on dirt in the world, won world horse of the year and the Dubai World Cup. He's a freak and so is Zenyatta. They both run similar distances as well.

Stevo 11 Nov 2010 11:12 PM

i would go with big brown over curlin

there bodies look the same he has speed

no mr prospector in his pedigree no

northern dancer in hers put those sires

together and you get a super horse

secretariat 14 Nov 2010 3:18 PM

i would pick big brown over curlin

big brown free of mr prospector in pedigree

zenyatta is free of northern dancer in hers

body types are the same tall and angular

and he is fast

secretariat 14 Nov 2010 8:04 PM

of new sires big brown is best size&speed

pedigree big brown nortern dancer zenyatta

mr prospector two best sires ever

secretariat 14 Nov 2010 10:00 PM

I prefer Giant's Causeway or one cool cat ( storm cat line ) , but the issue is the size of zen uterus can it produce a healthy horse race ?

Orpen 17 Nov 2010 6:18 PM

I`d like her with Dynaformer since he`s had some pretty impressive foals I mean look at Barbaro in 2005 he was astounding,think what a Zenyatta X Dynaformer foal would be like!He also has quite a few notables such as Bull Lea,Nashrullah,Turn-To,and Hail To Reason.If you mix that with the notables in Zenyatta`s line [Native Dancer,Tom Fool,Tom Rolfe,Princequillo,and Hoist The Flag] you`d most likely get quite a special foal

To Me She Won 28 Nov 2010 1:59 AM

Please discuss known treatment of mares in the breeding process.  What little I can find seems she may be frightened in this encounter:  Zenyatta has a mind of her own, has been given such nurturing treatment, and I am concerned this process may assault or break her spirit.  I am holding my breath in the hope that the people in her new circumstance are as careful with her as her family of the Mosses, John & Dottie Shirreffs, Mario, his wife, Steve and Melissa have been.  Being ignorant of the details of the institutionalized breeding of horses at this level, I am curious to know if it will be a primary concern of her breeders to be considerate of Zenyatta AND the stallion, as they are mated .. . just hoping the Mosses have a lot to say about all this.  Thank you for knowledgeable information about a sensitive, unreported issue.

Kathryn Cogswell 30 Nov 2010 1:27 PM

Hi Kathryn,

Remember first and foremost that Zenyatta is a domestic animal--a horse. She, along with other broodmares boarded at Lane's End and elsewhere, will be treated to a high level of individual and veterinary care.

In my personal experience, I have worked with broodmares at Taylor Made Farm and Darley. Here I worked with many broodmares who had been top racehorses--each also had "a mind of her own" and her own human connections. All were treated as horses, with proper care, respect, and veterinary and management consideration. Attempting to anthropomorphize Zenyatta is fine for her fans to do, but is quite pointless when you're dealing with the day-to-day care of horses on a farm.

In the breeding shed, the goal is to protect the safety of humans, mare, and stallion. Appropriate restraint and precautions are made to ensure the breeding is as quick and uneventful as possible. As a domestic animal, Zenyatta's spirit will be just fine. She will live most of her days grazing in a field with other mares. A couple days each breeding season she will be bred. Ideally, one day per breeding season she will give birth to a foal. Just like other broodmares.

Ian

Ian Tapp 30 Nov 2010 7:38 PM

So, one of the problems of breeding is always matching the best phenotype and genotype. Because Zenyatta has such unusual and exceptional physicality that needs to balanced by the stud. Any stallion larger than 16 hands and those that have a reputation for exceptionally large babies should be eliminated, particularly for a first foal. Because AP Indy is such an outstanding candidate and he is near the end of his breeding career I would think he would be the choice for the first breeding. He will not be available much longer and so this is an ideal time to use him with Zenyatta.

Debbie Lynch 24 Dec 2010 9:37 PM

I know i'm late to the party, but what about another stallion at Lanes End named Aragorn?

TradingPlaces 25 Dec 2010 9:57 AM

Afleet Alex

gocurlin 25 Dec 2010 4:32 PM

Can anyone explain why Smarty Jones is NOT included on this list? We all know the closing speed Zenyatta possessed, Smarty Jones had the drive of a champion. In the Belmont he was dead at the top of the lane and still kept digging deeper and deeper and found almost enough to close it out. Imagine Smarty and Zenyatta foals, two words... HOLY CRAP.

Shawn 01 Jan 2011 1:03 AM

Shawn,

That's easy-- Smarty Jones hasn't yet reached the same level as the stallions above, plus he now stands in Pennsylvania, a long way from Zenyatta in KY. No question he was an incredible racehorse, but a stallion's racing and stud careers are two different things. Genetics isn't that cut and dry.

Ian

Ian Tapp 01 Jan 2011 2:09 PM

breed her to  the green monkey   or invasor  

dan 05 Jan 2011 10:28 AM

I chose A.P. Indy. I know little about horse breeding. But I do know about "heart". His sire was Seattle Slew. It would be hard to find a bigger "heart" than his.

Charlie 21 Jan 2011 6:50 PM

I voted other.  I love this sire's pedigree:

www.pedigreequery.com/patton

This stallion has a gorgeous pedigree

Bloodlines 05 Mar 2011 5:04 PM

    I'm posting this comment after Zenyatta's already been in foal for several months; but hindsight notwithstanding, if I were the Mosses I'd breed the Queen next year to Tapit.

    Think about it!:

    (1) Tapit is bred on the same cross as Bernardini (A.P. Indy over Fappiano);

    (2) Tapit's offspring are famed for their precocity, something Zenyatta needs--as opposed to Bernardini, who like Zen didn't start until 3. The cumulative mating effect of TWO horses who didn't start until three seems likely to produce a "plodder" who won't break his maiden until 5 years old. Tapit has produced precocious stars like Breeders Cup Juvenile stakes winners Stardom Bound and Tapitsfly.

Jake in Tennessee 14 Sep 2011 1:17 PM

Leave a Comment

All comments are moderated and must be approved before they are posted. The blog author reserves the right to edit or omit any comment.

  (Appears with your comment) (required)
  (Will not be published) (required)
  (required)