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No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Written by Ian Tapp | Sep 29, 2010 | 50 Comments

We already knew it, but with Rachel Alexandra's retirement it was announced again that the 2009 Horse of the Year will be bred to 2007-08 HOY Curlin (TrueNicks,SRO) in 2011. As Jess Jackson said, "We are eager to introduce Rachel to Curlin. Imagine what possibilities those two super horses might produce."

Interestingly, both horses are winners of the Preakness Stakes (gr. I). When was the last time a foal was bred from two winners of the same American classic, you may ask? The year was 1921, when 1905 Belmont winner Tanya visited Peter Pan, the 1907 winner. The union created Ragtime, a claimer who made 76 starts and raced to age 10.

A mating of two U.S. Horses of the Year has occurred much more recently, in 2008. This was the meeting of 2002 HOY Azeri and Ghostzapper (TrueNicks,SRO), the 2004 honoree—actually, the pair had met previously, on the racetrack, when Ghostzapper defeated Azeri by nine lengths in the 2004 Breeders' Cup Classic (gr. I). Their resulting filly sold for $475,000 at this year's Keeneland September sale. In 2006, Azeri was bred to the 1992 HOY A.P. Indy (TrueNicks,SRO), with that mating producing the promising colt Take Control.

Readers: what are your thoughts on the Curlin-Rachel Alexandra mating? How about the combination of Northern Dancer/Sir Ivor crosses Sherriff's Deputy and El Prado? Below is a link to the TrueNicks report and, just for fun, a poll and videos of their maiden wins.

What kind of racehorse will the Curlin-Rachel Alexandra offspring be?online survey

Filed under: Pedigrees and Breeding, Sires

50 Comments:

I think there's been a more recent breeding of Classic winners than 1921. Secretariat and Genuine Risk were bred in 1982, though, sadly, the foal was stillborn.

slee 29 Sep 2010 5:22 PM

Fair enough, slee. Good catch. There's always an asterisk somewhere. Let's just count live foals then.

Ian Tapp 29 Sep 2010 5:24 PM

1988 Derby winner Winning Colors was also bred to 1990 Derby winner Unbridled, but that foal was stillborn. Maybe this Classic cross will be something!

landaluce 29 Sep 2010 6:36 PM

My pick is North Light. Can't beat that Danehill/Sadler's Wells cross.

ckroger 29 Sep 2010 7:01 PM

Why Curlin? Because JJ owns him? What about AP Indy? He's not getting any younger......

downhomesunset 29 Sep 2010 7:03 PM

Blah, humbug. This match is NOT made in Heaven, and I doubt that Jackson thought much about it before deciding to breed HIS mare to HIS stallion; it's just convenient. If lightning strikes, we'll ALL be eating our words, but I'm not holding my breath on this one!

Cheers and safe trips.

needler in Virginia 29 Sep 2010 8:19 PM

Given that both horses came to hand for all intents and purposes in the spring of their 3 year old yet I wouldn't expect a precocious racehorse. I would expect given Jess Jackson has ownership in both horses, expect her to be mated with Curlin and Eskendereya before considering any outside stallions. If they do consider an outside stallion I would like to see Tiznow, Street Cry or Giant's Causeway. She appears to need some stoutness given her distance limitations, maybe a stallion with success in Europe like Sea of Stars.

livewire 29 Sep 2010 8:47 PM

Ugh...Curlin

Seems I always gravitate to this horse. Should help fix the top line, won't add distance unless all that stuff in the back gangs up.

And since the two-year olds seem to be favoring the In Reality line (Back to War Relic)...

This one is just too compelling- Hat Trick.

Although rates a "D" on TrueNicks.

Both RA and HT have the same mare line, 1-o, which goes back to Friar's Carse. Remember the remarkable mare line of RA, going back to Ellen's Best, a daughter of War Relic and great granddaughter of War Relic's full sister, Speed Boat.

Hat Trick's dam carries both Speed Boat and Anchor's Ahead (another sibling) plus the dam sire carries War Relic.

I often wonder what, if anything, having the same tail female family, can do.

Besides the above, there are a lot of returns of Hail To Reason, Turn To, Ribot, Sir Gaylord, Damascus plus more Fair Play lines in the background with this cross if you get back.

Horsefirst 29 Sep 2010 8:47 PM

I agree with Needler. There are much better mates for RA in my opinion. How about Giants Causeway, Street Cry, Malibu Moon, or for kicks Summer Bird??

Stephanie 29 Sep 2010 9:03 PM

livewire,

RA needs "stoutness given her distance limitations"???

Wow, big statement! She is a multiple grade I winner at 9 and 9.5 furlongs. Her sire won the Travers, placed in 4 grade 1s at 10f, and was a half length from winning the Belmont. In the 10-furlong Personal Ensign, RA match-raced Life At Ten, ultimately destroying her by 10 lengths, only to be caught late by a dead closer. To me, this is not distance limitation in the slightest, it is distance prowess. We're not trying to breed Melbourne Cup winners, are we?

Ian

Ian Tapp 29 Sep 2010 9:37 PM

I feel that there will be too much hype for this mating. Like earlier posters, best to breed her to a stallion that is proven, especially as a sire of racehorses, since Jackson would probably want to race the resulting offspring. I like the idea of A.P. Indy. Dynaformer as well, but he is unavailable to maiden mares (maybe the year after?). Just because you own a stallion and you own a mare doesn't mean you should breed them.

Just my two cents.

HLLIKINS 29 Sep 2010 9:51 PM

There's way too much Native Dancer in that cross for me (Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector). I'd be very concerned about the foal's soundness and durability, although people often don't care about those things these days. The foal sounds like an injury waiting to happen (even if you forget about the Native Dancer, Curlin and Rachel aren't exactly iron horses the same way Exterminator and Beldame were). I also don't think the foal would be about to win the Triple Crown-no way it could get twelve furlongs, maybe not even ten furlongs. Curlin almost won the twelve-furlong Belmont, admittedly, but Rachel couldn't even win the ten-furlong Personal Ensign in pedestrian time. I could be wrong.

Sarah 29 Sep 2010 10:17 PM

More realistically,

You can get Dynaformer through Purim.

Also like Pleasant Tap

Just do not think Curlin is the best physical cross for RA.

Horsefirst 29 Sep 2010 10:37 PM

I like the Mr.Prospector / Sadler's Wells cross ! My first choice for Rachel would have been AP Indy though . The hypothetical cross looks good also ! The resulting foal would have a dosage profile of 4 0 3 1 0 with a DI of 2.20 and a CD of +.88 . The mating looks like classic results to me !

Pedigree Shelly 29 Sep 2010 10:40 PM

Horsefirst , If your thinking of a In Reality sire line stallion for Rachel , the obvious choice would be Tiznow ! A proven sire of stamina and durability !

Pedigree Shelly 29 Sep 2010 10:54 PM

They always say breed the best to the best and hope for the best. And is it any wonder? A mating between Curlin and Rachel could very well end in a horse who can't break its maiden to a horse that can but in a cheap claiming race just as easily as one who does go on to do well. That's just the way thoroughbred breeding has been for centuries and it will never change. Having said that I wish them good luck in their matings and offsprings.

John T 29 Sep 2010 11:21 PM

Sarah,

Of the Curlin-RA foal, you wrote: "no way it could get twelve furlongs, maybe not even ten furlongs. Curlin almost won the twelve-furlong Belmont, admittedly, but Rachel couldn't even win the ten-furlong Personal Ensign in pedestrian time. I could be wrong."

Let's look at some recent 3YOs that did get 10 and 12 furlongs, and the maximum winning distances of their sire and dam. I think you'll agree that, based on your criteria, the resulting Curlin-RA foal would have more than a fair chance to stay 10 furlongs and beyond.

Horse, Sire's Max Winning Distance/Dam's Max Winning Distance (in furlongs)

Secretariat, 10/nonwinner

Seattle Slew, 9/8.5

Affirmed, 8/9

Silver Charm, 10/9

Touch Gold, 9/5.5

Real Quiet, 9/8

Victory Gallop, 10/8.5

Charismatic, 9.5/nonwinner

Lemon Drop Kid, 8/6.5

Fusaichi Pegasus, 6/6

Commendable, 9/8.5

Point Given, 12/8

War Emblem, 8/8.5

Sarava, 10/unraced

Funny Cide, 8/6.5

Empire Maker, 10/9

Smarty Jones, 8.5/8

Birdstone, 10/7

Afleet Alex, 9/8

Barbaro, 12/9

Bernardini, 12/8.5

Jazil, 10/9

Curlin, 8.5/unraced

Rags to Riches, 12/9

Big Brown, 6/8.5

Da' Tara, 10/6.5

Summer Bird, 12/nonwinner

Drosselmeyer, 8/8.5

Curlin-Rachel Alexandra foal, 10/9.5

Ian Tapp 30 Sep 2010 12:17 AM

Why wouldn't the ND/Sir Ivor Duplication be successful and classic. Why does it really have to get more complicated than that? I just wish I had her at 12/1 when she broke her maiden in 57+ and then she started running after the wire!! A breeder only gets one chance per year to combine the gene pool. Native Dancer was the same cross 5 times; would you make it 6? I would. Jackson has "bred" an empire with wine; and hes lucky so since we know its going to happen, lets wish him luck as he sure is good at marketing and right now, horse racing is one of the best kept secrets in the USA

Maryland 30 Sep 2010 5:32 AM

I've always thought that Point Given would make a nice sire to Rachel Alexandra's first, or any foal. And Smarty Jones wouldn't be a bad idea either! If anything, the foal would be determined, and awful cute!!

LuckySon 30 Sep 2010 5:43 AM

i would think the first breeding of a young mare would be to a older stallion like ap indy or maybe street cry isn't her owner thinking of anything please someone who knows this man talk to him think of the horse oh well what am i thinking had he done that she would still be with the trainer she liked and winning races

eileen 30 Sep 2010 8:11 AM

I doubt that Mr. Jackson's pedigree advisors had Curlin as their top choice or even among their top five choices. It's obvious Mr. Jackson has no clue about pedigree and genetics. Unfortunately Rachel Alexandra may never reach her full potential as a broodmare due to continued mismanagement by her owner.

LJ 30 Sep 2010 8:56 AM

Completely off topic, but, I was late to the Princequillo thread. John Henry was out of Office Double, by Double Jay. So, he, too, ran with much Blue Blood from Princequillo. The late great Jim Murray once wrote of him as being only a "Blue Collar" and not a "Blue Blood". Murray was rarely wrong, except for that comment.

berttheclock 30 Sep 2010 8:57 AM

It doesn't mean that they will produce great offspring. Many of the great racehorses never produced offspring equal to themselves. Only time will tell.

erz213 30 Sep 2010 9:02 AM

How about Curlin's Sire Smart Strike or maybe a trip to Germany and horse like Monsun?

racehoss 30 Sep 2010 9:14 AM

Considering the way Jackson has (mis)managed Rachel, I'm surprised he doesn't plan on mating with her himself!

Susan 30 Sep 2010 9:30 AM

I would feel far more comfortable about the handling of her breeding, if, WinStar was in charge of selection. Even Madeleine Paulson, might be wiser, as she has an excellent track record of breeding Grade I winning mares.

I forget to mention that Princequillo was on the top side of John Henry, as well, as he was the sire of Prince Blessed, the sire of Ole Bob Bowers, who, had a ton of Teddy, Blue Larkspur and Plucky Liege in him. Yeah, some "Blue Collar" guy was JH.

berttheclock 30 Sep 2010 9:34 AM

JJ has made a lot of mistakes since purchasing RA, why would we think he would listen to anyone about her broodmare career? Real horsemen know you don't breed a maiden mare to a young stallion. I agree either AP Indy or Street Cry would be a good first mating. She can always go to Curlin after we see how his babies do on the track.

quarterhossgal 30 Sep 2010 10:05 AM

No...No...No... How many great runners never make it as stand-out sires. A bucketful. (Spectacular Bid anyone?) Rachel would be doing Curlin a favor. Why not simply go to Curlin's daddy Smart Strike if JJ is so enamored of the cross. Don't diminish Rachel's chances of becoming a great producer, possibly a breed shaper. Let Curlin prove himself as a sire first. He's still young after all. Rachel should go straight to the top of the leading sires list, and they should be standing in line for her.

PF Gorman 30 Sep 2010 10:24 AM

Spectacular Bid probably suffered from the 'too much stamina' syndrome, which may explain why he had more turf SWs than dirt ones and that the only places he had sons who sired decent runners were Australia and New Zealand. In that regard he was somewhat like his damsire, the distance-loving Promised Land. And Bid has had a fair number of good producing daughters, too.

Pedigree Ann 30 Sep 2010 11:05 AM

I have liked the Curlin/Rachel cross from day one. I would not go with AP Indy simply because there is a lot of that bloodline already available. The market is glutted.

I really like Hat Trick, because that brings back Sunday Silence with Damascus on the bottom. You could also go to Smart Strike or another of his sons, English Channel. Or how about Pleasant Tap? You just never know what will work until you try it.

I just wish I was in a position to own a mare like Rachel and thus have every stallion in the world to choose from.

Terry 30 Sep 2010 11:08 AM

I agree with erz213...Smart Strike would be my choice for Rachel if I owned her....

Oscar's Scoutmaster 30 Sep 2010 12:38 PM

LJ, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about! You are obviously an outsider and not lookin in. All I see is blah blah blah on this blog about whom Rachel should and should not be bred to. Guess what people it's not your decision and whether or not you think JJ is a good person or owner is beside the point. Bloodstock advisors are the ones paid to make good decisions and owners pay them for their opinion. Whether JJ follows the advice of his advisor is out of your control. Blogs are for people that have no life and who want to complain about things that they can not control. Get a dog!!

No Clue 30 Sep 2010 1:21 PM

I think Indian Charlie or Smarty Jones would be a great match for Rachel.

nvsally 30 Sep 2010 1:27 PM

Distorted Humor would be my choice.

nina 30 Sep 2010 1:54 PM

Point Given or Smarty Jones????? Maybe if she was an allowance winner, but not as HOY. I agree I'd send her to an established producing stallion first: AP Indy, Street Cry, Smart Sense, Dynaformer or Tiznow. If they want a young sire, I'd go to Bernardini before Curlin.

Lmaris 30 Sep 2010 1:58 PM

I would breed Rachel to Smart Strike. Remember, his latest winning son, Lookin at Lucky?? Then the next year go for Curlin!

MyBigRed 30 Sep 2010 2:29 PM

Itapp

Yes, distance limitations. 1:12 and change for six furlongs is not a match race. If you want an example of a match race time, try Lady's Secret vs. Precisionist. Lady's Secret and Precisionist are examples of horses who could stretch their speed beyond 9 furlongs. Lady's Secret herself won 3 of her 4 10-furlong races and her splits included 6 furlong fractions of 1:10 and change completing the 10 furlongs in 2:01 and change. Even though 1:12 and change should have left Rachel with enough left Rachel struggled home completing her final quarter in more than 28 seconds. If she had the "stoutness" to complete a 10 furlong race she would have come home in better than 26 seconds. There is no shame in admitting that she has distance limitations. She is and will always be a brilliant miler who could stretch her speed to 9 furlongs defeating all who ran against her. I just think if you bring in some stamina, you have a better chance of producing a classic horse. Isn't that what we are all hoping for, no matter who she is bred to?

livewire 30 Sep 2010 4:16 PM

livewire,

Any horse will have a maximum preferred distance, so, true, by your definition every horse has distance limitations. In the context of distance requirements for breeding a classic winner, a mare need not have relished 10 or 12 furlongs in order to produce a horse that can stay those distances, just see my response to Sarah above.

Also, referencing raw fractional times between races, let alone races that are decades apart, is misleading and improper, especially considering the way the track played in the Personal Ensign.

I won't even mention the produce record of your example mare, Lady's Secret.

I stand by my opinion that RA displayed more than enough stamina in her racing career to warrant breeding a classic horse, especially with a mate like Curlin.

Ian

Ian Tapp 30 Sep 2010 4:39 PM

I have to agree with you there Ian. Great mares generally don't produce well and the stallion's or the mare's race record in distance don't automatically negate the chance of producing a horse who can successfully negotiate the classic distance. Your response to Sarah was very interesting. In fact, race record seems to be the least reliable in pointing to a horses ability to get a distance.

Just looking at the Personal Ensign is a perfect example. Persistently, a come from behind sprinter prior to the Personal Ensign is by Smoke Glacken, a sprinter, and was able to win the 10 furlong Personal Ensign while Rachel Alexandra who is by Medaglia D"Oro who won the Travers at 10 furlongs and was twice second in the Breeders Cup Classic, 2nd in the Pacific Classic and Dubai World Cup, and also 2nd in the Belmont Stakes was not able to come home in anything resembling a fashion that indicated that given another chance in a 10 furlong race, the outcome would be any different.

Those crazy genetics. I agree she has a good chances of producing a classic horse, I stand by my opinion that breeding her to proven classic distance sires holds a better chance. Obviously, I certainly have high hopes for Curlin.

Livewire 30 Sep 2010 6:10 PM

@Susan's comment - ROFLMAO

Jutta 30 Sep 2010 6:26 PM

livewire,

Agreed, I also feel that in general it's wise to breed unproven mares to proven stallions. However, the nature of this business, and of life in general, is that fashion dominates wisdom, and even purely fashionable decisions can outperform the wisest decisions.

Ian Tapp 30 Sep 2010 6:54 PM

Street Cry gets my vote.

Ms WTF 30 Sep 2010 11:23 PM

This pairing of Curlin and Rachel results in a couple of patterns/crosses that are not seen often in top runners. For one, Smart Strike and his sons have produced over 60 stakeswinners, with 40 of those coming from Northern Dancer-line mares, but not one has Sadlers Wells. Perhaps it hasn’t been tried much. I note, though, that two descend from Nureyev; English Channel and Furthest Land.

Curlin is a product of the Mr. Prospector sire line over the Northern Dancer sire line, while Rachel has this in reverse. Of the nearly 850 graded stakes winners by Mr. Prospector or his sons and grandsons out of a mare from Northern Dancer or his sons and grandsons, or from the many top runners having Northern Dancer over Northern Dancer in the middle, only seven of those also have this Mr.P/ND over ND/Mr.P pattern within the pedigree. Again, maybe it hasn’t been tried all that often. Curiously, the most recent graded stakes winner having this pattern came at Rachel's expense - Persistently is bred this way! Others include Limehouse and Commentator.

russf 01 Oct 2010 8:32 AM

While I think it's far from the best cross, had I owned both Curlin and Rachel I'd probably breed them to one another. Jackson isn't getting any younger, and he'd probably look forward to this offspring above any other. All that he needed to see (or learn) was that the cross wasn't an obvious no-no. He also knows that mating horses is far from an exact science, so it's not as if he's taking a huge risk with this mating. From the fiscal perspective, Rachel would seem one more likely than most to "help" Curlin's future reputation...As an aside-once again Ian's comments seem right on the mark.

sceptre 01 Oct 2010 2:12 PM

LET RACHEL RACE! How and why would you keep this athletic and healthy mare from racing - maybe Rachel has not shown us her best. I can't imagine her spending her days in a paddock or stall, never running a race again.

Jeanne B. 01 Oct 2010 5:46 PM

Horsefirst has the best match from my perspective. Purim is free of ND and RAN. Reinforces HTR and Ribot and should provide a well balanced foal, athletic faol. Lotta Kim has the female inbreeding that works more often than breeding matches that do not contain the RF. Purim will give you a couple of female inbreeding matches and one is the bottom line of Purim. If you are breeding for many generations and not one race horse, Purim is a great choice. RA offspring versus Z offspring could be a great story line for years/decades to come. I am taking RA offspring but only if JJ does some decent matches. Please no more Curlin. This is a very poor match. If Curlin passes along his bad, bad hoofs none of them will get to the race track. EVER.

dave york 03 Oct 2010 6:57 AM

STREET CRY!!! A++ rating, 7.38 variant - A Street Cry/RA foal would be able to succeed at the classic distance, have closing speed, etc etc etc etc!!! What is JJ thinking?! Curlin is unproven as a stallion, has less than perfect physical characteristics - RA deserves a proven stallion!!!!

EmilyL 04 Oct 2010 2:10 AM

It is my opinion that AP Indy would be the best cross at the moment for Rachel. She has a duplicate of Sir Gaylord and Cure The Blues traces to Speedwell and NO SECRETARIAT.

Indy is getting up there in years, has classic influence but enough speed to not take it away from her and he is minus Northern Dancer. Perfect IMO. However, we all know it won't happen. Sad.

No matter what, she needs Secretariat blood and there are plenty of horses out there with it.

The current hot freshman sire Bluegrass Cat offers an interesting cross for numerous reason. Mostly because he is inbred to Big Red.

We can only hope.

Andrea Hoogendoorn Bouwkamp 16 Oct 2010 10:17 AM

Why not get AP Indy while he can still stand?

My God what kind of wonder horse would AP and Rachel create?

dianne 01 Jan 2011 2:27 PM

dianne,

Jess Jackson wants to support his stallion with his best mare. I'm sure Rachel will see proven stallions later in her broodmare career. In the meantime, she may help establish Curlin as a sire.

Ian

Ian Tapp 01 Jan 2011 4:11 PM

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No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

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