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Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Today brought the news of Black Caviar's retirement from racing. The big question now is which stallion will have the privilege of serving the great mare in her first season at stud?

But first, to reflect on Black Caviar's remarkable record, her unbeaten 25-race career included 15 group I victories and spanned six consecutive calendar years. She was the world's top rated sprinter in 2010, 2011, and 2012, and Australian champion sprinter and Horse of the Year in 2011 and 2012. She did win at the highest level in both hemispheres, her class pulling her through when below her best to capture the Diamond Jubilee Stakes (Eng-I) at Royal Ascot on her sole appearance outside of Australia.

Black Caviar is a daughter of Bel Esprit (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO), a group I-winning sprinter/miler by Nijinsky II's Breeders' Cup Mile (gr. IT) victor Royal Academy out of the Desert Sun (by Green Desert) mare Helsinge. The family, which goes back to Love Song, a Danish-bred mare who captured that country's Oaks (Den-I) and who is fourth dam of Black Caviar, has been on fire of late. Black Caviar's half brother All Too Hard has won three group I races, including the Caulfield Guineas (Aus-I), and is very possibly the best 3-year-old of the current crop in Australia. The second dam, the group-winning and group I-placed Snippets mare Scandinavia, is also dam of Galaxy Stakes (Aus-I) victor Magnus (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO); multiple group winner Wilander; and Scandiva, a group II scorer who was also runner-up in last weekend's Sires' Produce Stakes (Aus-I).

From a pattern standpoint, Black Caviar is notable in that her sire is out of a mare bred on a cross of Vain (one of the fastest sprinters seen in Australia) and Paul Mellon's Champion Stakes winner Silly Season, while Scandinavia, her granddam, is a Silly Season/Vain cross.

The good news as far as Australian stallion options are concerned is that the several Danehill line stallions rate highly in the TrueNicks Key Ancestors Report, which measures all male and female ancestors in Black Caviar's pedigree to identify ancestors to seek out or avoid in the pedigrees of stallions.

Champion sire Redoute's Choice (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO), a son of Danehill, is an A nick and the top-rated horse by Key Ancestor Score. His dam gives linebreeding to Silly Season's son Lunchtime, and to Nijinsky II (who combines well with Lunchtime's grandsire, Tom Fool).

Danehill's latest superstar sire, Fastnet Rock (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO), is responsible for Scandiva (out of Black Caviar's granddam) and would give an intriguing 3x3 inbreeding to Royal Academy. The nick rating is an above-average B and the Key Ancestor Score for this mating is second only to Redoute's Choice.

Exceed And Excel (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO), fifth-rated by Key Ancestor Score (with a very positive number), is a Danehill who is enjoying a phenomenal season with his Australian 2-year-olds—his daughter Overreach and son Sidestep ran 1-2 in the Golden Slipper (Aus-I) April 6—and he's sired the speedy Wilander from the family.

Moving to a horse who is out of a Danehill mare, Sepoy (AUS) (TrueNicks,SRO) is the highest ever rated 3-year-old sprinter on the International Classifications. The hypothetical mating with Black Caviar rates A+ on TrueNicks and has a positive Key Ancestor Score.

At one point, there was suggestion that Black Caviar may be among the group of Southern Hemisphere mares that would visit Frankel, another out of a daughter of Danehill. He does have a positive Key Ancestor Score, but his TrueNicks rating does not inspire. A European stallion who has stronger appeal is Dubawi.

Should Black Caviar ever venture to North America, the wonder-mare would appeal with War Front (TrueNicks,SRO) or Tapit (TrueNicks,SRO), who has a turf grade I winner (Tapitsfly) out of a Nijinsky II line mare.

What are your thoughts on Black Caviar's first mating?

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71 Comments:

On pedigree, I think I'd opt for Dubawi. Particularly like her Green Desert with Dubawi (himself), and her Nijinsky II with Dubawi's Seeking The Gold. Also her Nijinsky II and Tom Fools augment his good Tom Fool (through the very + Mrs. Peterkin). But, I'm not considering here her Vains, and would like to research this component a bit more. Anyway, pedigree-wise, seems by far the best cross of those you mentioned. As far as conformation- he should help "unmass" her a bit, but as I recall, Dubawi may prefer a less robust-type than is Black Caviar....As an aside, I'm delighted that they have retired this absolutely brillant mare. I'd say perfect timing-although I would have stopped her after Ascot. They gambled to go on, and proved to be correct.

sceptre 17 Apr 2013 6:23 PM

How about US shuttle stallion More Than Ready? It only adds one more cross of Northern Dancer and provides some Halo and Mr. P genes which could be beneficial if the foal is a colt.

Aztectomb 17 Apr 2013 6:46 PM

Frankel will be first.  No questions asked.

Stud 17 Apr 2013 7:12 PM

What about Animal Kingdom?

Alydar78 17 Apr 2013 7:25 PM

Aztectomb & Alydar 78,

I'd want to breed her to a sprinter/miler type so as not to deviate too much from her own aptitude. It will be interesting to see if Animal Kingdom breeds more like a miler (i.e. his good BC Mile and his sire's race record) or if he's more of a middle-distance influence (his KY Derby and DWC wins). He's also unproven (as is Frankel), and most of the time you'd want to use a proven sire for a young mare.

Animal Kingdom and More Than Ready both rate "D" on TrueNicks with Black Caviar, reflecting their sire line's below-average record with Nijinsky line mares. Despite that rating, More Than Ready would probably still be a nice mating considering how good a sire he is, particularly with his turf sprinters, and from what I can tell seems to fit her physically. And MTR does have group II winner More Strawberries out of a Nijinsky line mare.

Ian Tapp 17 Apr 2013 7:58 PM

What about a breeding with Hansen? He provides Slew bloodlines through A.P Indy and Pulpit and Nijinsky line.

sassifire08 17 Apr 2013 8:31 PM

Lonhro

carol in utah 17 Apr 2013 8:43 PM

Pluck, a son of More Than Ready - Secret Heart, by Fort Wood. Fort Wood is a son of Sadler's Wells.

Testa Rossa - Perugion (son of Danzig x Fairy Bridge, by Bold Ruler) x Bo Dapper (Sir Dapper x Bodega, by Without Fear)

Encosta de Lago (Fairy King x Shoal Creek, by Star Way)

Then there's Choisir, Duke of Marmalade, High Chaparral, So You Think...

Tiz Herself 17 Apr 2013 8:50 PM

Frankel was considered out as she's not travelling to Royal Ascot...at least that's what the first story that broke her retirement said. Her connections were looking to stay with a stallion in Australia this year.

GoForWand 17 Apr 2013 9:10 PM

I'd have to go with a proven sire such as Redoute's Choice.

Lakeway 17 Apr 2013 9:23 PM

Not sure how he rates but Lonhro is a champion mile and leader sire .

Hardlyhatful 17 Apr 2013 9:26 PM

animal kingdom

spectacular bid 17 Apr 2013 9:37 PM

Keep her here in Australia. There is top stallions here that she can be mated to. Fastnet Rock or Redoute's Choice are two of them.

speedyhorse 17 Apr 2013 10:16 PM

Black Caviar's trainer Peter Moody said this about the prospective mating:

"This is completely up to the owners. It's their decision. She's a terribly big, strong horse. Frankel, because of his size, was a good fit. Redoute's Choice and Fastnet Rock are big, strong horses like her. Whether that is the right fit, I'm not sure."

Ian Tapp 17 Apr 2013 10:20 PM

Frankel retired unbeaten and she has never lost.I believe a G1 winning colt with this cross would be a very popular sire.But why not breed her to Animal Kindom?

Bobert 17 Apr 2013 10:24 PM

The original plan was to race once again at Royal Ascot and then retire her and breed her to Frankel so we will just have to wait and see what they intend for this mare.

John T 17 Apr 2013 11:31 PM

Please - Bite the bullet, send her to the UK & breed her to either Gallileo, Danehill or Dansili this year, then when she foals, bring her back to Australia with the foal after she's been bred to Frankel for #2. I am recommending theis group of stallions based on their age - Frankel will be available a while longer than the aforementioned trio.

Christy 17 Apr 2013 11:48 PM

I don't know too much about Aussie breeding. I saw Lonrho at Darley last spring. He was in Bernie's paddock. Poor Cozmic One's daddy (aka Z12) was stuck way out back where we couldn't see him...

A name that I did recognize was Nijinsky II! I saw Nijinsky shortly before his passing in 1991. He quietly stood there as the groom and I stood there talking about him. His ears flickered back and forth, other than that he never acted like he heard much less cared about us. He even let me pet him!

Margaret 18 Apr 2013 12:44 AM

I would keep her in Australia and Animal Kingdom is not a wrong idea. If Frankel would come to Australia I would choose him. it sure will be interesting to see,what the owners decide.

Petra Neumueller 18 Apr 2013 4:19 AM

The perfect  sire would be Medaglia D'Oro....

Maureen 18 Apr 2013 6:34 AM

Redoute's Choice, Fastnet Rock, Sepoy, Exceed And Excell, and Lonrho are top considerations here in Australia.

Johnno 18 Apr 2013 6:49 AM

Fastnet Rock is the favourite and for good reason. His progeny have been the standouts in Australia and appears a good match up on paper and physically. I'd like to know more about how Lonhro matches up also.

Tess 18 Apr 2013 7:04 AM

Hmm what about being one of Animal Kingdom's first dates? Does  that nick well?

darlene 18 Apr 2013 8:34 AM

I think that Lonhro would be a good fit

arc 18 Apr 2013 8:46 AM

Lonhro is a specimen of a horse.  That being said he is very muscular and mating with a muscular mare may not fit.

Personally I like the idea of Gio Ponti as a physical match.  He isn't overly tall/muscular and had the class to win at a mile on the grass.  Wouldn't vary greatly from her physcial or racing aptitude.

Philip Fowler 18 Apr 2013 9:36 AM

Later, how about Zenyatta's Bernardini colt?

Carol 18 Apr 2013 9:41 AM

mate her with bustin stones (ny)

iceman92 18 Apr 2013 9:45 AM

re: Lonhro, he's an exceptional sire and works with a variety of bloodlines. He rates a solid "A" with Black Caviar, getting 2 SW from 18 starters out of Nijinsky line mares. But it's important to note that Zabeel and Sir Tristram have a below average records specifically with the mares most closely related to Black Caviar.

It's an outcross mating at only 0.49% coefficient of relatedness.

Ian Tapp 18 Apr 2013 9:52 AM

Lonhro is a specimen of a horse. That being said he is very muscular and mating with a muscular mare may not fit.

Personally I like the idea of Gio Ponti as a physical match. He isn't overly tall/muscular and had the class to win at a mile on the grass. Wouldn't vary greatly from her physcial or racing aptitude.

anonymous 18 Apr 2013 10:08 AM

I love More Than Ready for Black Caviar, especially from a physical standpoint.  He has been shuttling for several years now, and is having a lot of success in Australia.  He's a surprisingly good turf sire, considering his pedigree and racing history. If I owned her, I would not breed her to a first-year sire.  

ceil rock 18 Apr 2013 11:49 AM

Pretty hard to tell if one horse "fits" another, physically. I've read ... and thought .. for years that horses of the same type (muscular or rangy) should be used. Don't try to breed one type to another and hope for something in between, as it seldom happens and usually with poor results. Either type of horse can do anything and you won't know that until they're tried. If you have a big, muscular mare, breed her to the same type of stallion.

catonie 18 Apr 2013 12:22 PM

Lonhro might be a great match. He was an A+ rating for Zenyatta.

catonie 18 Apr 2013 12:24 PM

I say Redoute's Choice, not only because he's a A, but also because he is a proven top sire and he's 17. He won't have a lot of breeding years ahead of him so they need to use him now if they are going to. As valuable as her offspring are sure to be, now is not the time to be taking chances on choosing a sire. There will be time enough to go with Frankel later.

Karen in Indiana 18 Apr 2013 2:51 PM

Frankel = too much speed, not enough stamina. Go with Tapit and let's make a Triple Crown winner.

dfg 18 Apr 2013 2:56 PM

If Frankel isn't a good cross, they won't breed her to him. All of the emotional voters out there who see a great race mare and one of the nicer race-horses and then automatically think they should be mated, you need to come down to reality. Just because they are both talented, doesn't mean they are a good cross for each other, that's not how it works.

I'd go with Redoute's Choice, good cross, and he's local.

Ange 18 Apr 2013 4:51 PM

Could be Lonhro's best son Pierro!!

Betty Boop 18 Apr 2013 5:13 PM

I agree with those who think that Animal Kingdom would be a good choice to sire Black Caviar's first foal. He is a very talented, magnificent looking horse, just as she is and he is a proven distance winner. I would not breed her to a horse who is considered a miler.

smarie 18 Apr 2013 5:16 PM

Pierro

John from Alfords Point 18 Apr 2013 6:20 PM

Animal Kingdom is worth a shot he will be standing in Australia.The true nicks may be hard to figure with him.Since his sire saw small books of mares his first 3 years at stud and I do not believe he saw many G1 or G2 winning mares.His sire had a big increase in the number and I am sure the quality of the mares he covered starting in 2012.Quality or Opportunity can skew the numbers on the true nicks #'s

Bobert 18 Apr 2013 9:44 PM

One choice, Lonhro!

AmandaF 18 Apr 2013 10:35 PM

Just read an interesting post by Arrowfield, suggesting their horse Snitzel. Inbreeding to Snippets. I love Snippets and his progeny, seems like a great mating.

Dawie 19 Apr 2013 7:11 AM

Bobert,

Thanks for your comments. Actually TrueNicks is designed to take into account opportunity, as it looks at the percentage of stakes winners bred on a cross compared to the percentage of stakes winners by the sire/broodmare sire, or sireline/broodmare sireline with all other mares, so comparing like with like in terms of quality.

I'm not sure that Animal Kingdom is the right horse here. The most interesting aspect of the pedigree is that he has a double of Lyphard (dam by Court Martial), and Black Caviar is inbred to the Court Martial line horse, Vain.

She's actually quite a challenging mare, in that some of the best pedigree picks might lean towards a bit too much size and substance.

I think I would take a shot with Redoute's Choice, and hope that the "first foal factor" would scale it down a bit.

Alan Porter 19 Apr 2013 10:20 AM

Starcraft [NZ] appears to be the way to go!

A++ Rating:

www.truenicks.com/.../display(AUS)

Chris 19 Apr 2013 1:47 PM

Smart Strike gets an A+ (as it seems like his top sons would as well, of which English Channel or Lookin at Lucky seem like a better match physically than the very brawny Curlin). English Channel has gotten quite a few winners from a less than stellar (overall) early group of mates.

Kyri 19 Apr 2013 3:00 PM

Dawie

I also like Snitzel, but not for the reasons that Jon Freyer of Arrowfield claims is a good reason to do it. Jon states....

"The interesting thing for me is the pattern of the inbreeding to Vain, 3sds x 4ddds, as we designate it.  This is a powerful inbreeding pattern represented by several Champions and many many other high class performers. Her owner need only to look at Big Brown or our own Alverta for confirmation. I have our theory as to why this pattern is so effective; suffice to say I firmly believe it is. So if one accepts that premise then in my view the ideal mating for Black Caviar would be our stallion Snitzel."

With all respect to Jon, there are 89 other foals of racing age that are 3sds x 4ddds to Vain, and Black Caviar is the only stakes winner. Its a similar story for Big Brown with 46 foals of racing age that are 3sds x 4ddds to Damascus with Big Brown the only stakes winner. They are not good numbers to suggest that this pattern (3sds x 4ddds) has any particular "magic" to it (There is yet to be a horse inbred to Snippets in this pattern).

As I said earlier however, I do think that Snitzel is the right mating for her. It suits on pedigree (love inbreeding to Nijinsky II with Storm Bird)and importantly on type, he's the horse that would suit her the best physically (More Than Ready wouldn't be far behind on that count either).

Of course if it works, we can claim that the 3sds x 4ddds to Snippets was associative not causative for success but if it doesn't then I will say that the 3sds x 4ddds to Snippets was the reason it didn't work! :)

Byron Rogers 19 Apr 2013 5:09 PM

Alan......I did not know that truenicks took opportunity into account.I assumed it was based on wins,stakes wins % of these from foals.Glad to hear it accounts for opportunity.More Than Ready has sired a few quality sprinters and has had alot of success down under.

Bobert 19 Apr 2013 9:49 PM

In response to Byron's comments, and those of Mr. Freyer:

Black Caviar's pedigree was reviewed in an earlier TrueNicks blog. On that occasion we were trying to sort out the pedigree "reasons" for her success. I had suggested that her double Tom Fools (through Silly Season/Adios and Lunchtime) together with her Nijinsky II could have played a major role. But in suggesting that, I was assuming that she inherited fortuitously some of Silly Season's very best genetic components of Tom Fool and, perhaps those very pieces that have historically blended so well with Nijinsky II's Menow (sire of Tom Fool) component. The key word here is fortuitously, since Silly Season was neither a truly gifted runner or sire-he may have sired well in Australia, back then, but it's doubtful that he (or Lunchtime) would have been first class international influences. I think it's a good rule of thumb to avoid linebreeding to non-first class influences. Ask yourselves, for example, which horse was more likely to transmit the better Tom Fool "brand"-Silly Season or Buckpasser; Silly Season or Mrs. Peterkin? This is one reason why I chose Dubawi for Black Caviar. The fact that Black Caviar may have inherited, fortuitously, great Tom Fool genes via Silly Season, etc. does not make it more likely that other sources of Silly Season-even her most proximal source-would offer similar fortuitous Tom Fool genes. So, if one reasons that it is "helpful" to augment Tom Fool to Black Caviar's Tom Fools, I think it better to provide them via a stronger influence. Same could be said for her Nijinsky II, but for that Royal Academy was probably a rather decent source for Nijinsky II (to begin with).    

sceptre 19 Apr 2013 11:23 PM

         My first choice would be Galileo ,but Animal Kingdom or Lonhro would make more geographical sense , plus stamina to compliment Black Caviar's speed !

Weekend Surprise 20 Apr 2013 6:46 AM

In considering a stallion, I offer a different approach. Man O'War, Secretariat, Affirmed, Alydar, Smarty Jones, Curlin, Rags to Riches, Eskeyadendra, Animal Kingdom, and I'll Have Another all are recessive gene horses.  Chestnut horses.  I suspect recessive horses carry the largest hearts,on average,as well. I would simply ask if the aforementioned living recessive stallions disclose a cardiac monitoring test. I would especially consider a stallion that could offer recessive genes from his dam's side, the X factor could come into play. We may see this issue come into light in three years with another record breaking mare, Zenyatta.  I can't wait to see her 2013 chestnut foal race in 2016.  

Nancy J. 20 Apr 2013 10:50 AM

Nancy J,

Thanks for your post. As all horses have recessive and dominant genes, I’m going to guess from the context of your note that when you say “recessive gene horses” you are referring to homozygous chestnuts (horses who have inherited two chestnut alleles from their parents). To the best of our knowledge, there is absolutely no link whatsoever between the variant that causes red (chestnut) coat color and the size, or performance, of the heart (the same is true of humans since the variant that causes the chestnut coat color in the horse causes red or blond hair in humans). So there is absolutely no reason to suppose that a horse that has inherited the red coat color mutation of the MC1R gene – whether it be from its sire or dam – will have also inherited a specific variant or variants pertaining to heart size.

We can be equally sure that the idea of a single gene on the x-chromosome being responsible for heart-size is a myth. This was confirmed at the 2010 Pedigree and Genetics Symposium by three of the geneticists that were part of the Equine Genome project that sequenced the equine genome, one of whom, Dr. Matthew Binns, co-wrote the original horse genome map.

While there no evidence whatsoever for a single “large heart gene” inherited from Pocahontas, and zig-zagging its way through the breed via the x-chromosome, it is very likely that there are genetic variants that impact heart size and output. However, they are just as likely to be inherited from the sire as from the dam. Indeed, companies that perform heart-scans of thoroughbreds have noted that certain stallions tend to consistently pass on a particular heart size and shape.

We’ll finally note that the importance of heart size itself is also misunderstood. It is possible to have a large, but inefficient heart, and equally possible to have smaller, but very efficient one. What is important is that a horse has a heart that is appropriate to its specific phenotype and genotype. We can, however, categorically state that this will have nothing to do with its coat color, or its x-chromosome.

Alan Porter 20 Apr 2013 12:35 PM

I would go with Dubawi or Tapit if she were to come here.  Also Nancy J...Zenyatta's 2013 colt is not likely to be chestnut for long - he will almost certainly be grey.

Racingfan 20 Apr 2013 1:24 PM

Mr. Porter, what do you mean when you say "first  foal factor"....?

JorgeG 20 Apr 2013 1:42 PM

JorgeG,

To chime in for Alan, the adage is that foals from maiden mares tend to be smaller (due to uterine environment and nutrition). You'll hear the phrase "typical first foal" used if they are born weak or undersized. One study at Kansas State confirmed foals out of maiden mares are initially smaller, but they catch up by 4 months of age.

Ian Tapp 20 Apr 2013 7:23 PM

My choice would be High Chaparral.

Honest Ed's 20 Apr 2013 8:01 PM

I believe Black Caviar already has enough No. Dancer (x3)so needs to avoid any cross that adds to it.  But upon quick review of top Australian sires, I couldn't find one that was devoid of No. Dancer.  Is there a good Aussy sire with no No. Dancer?

Pasadena 20 Apr 2013 8:11 PM

4x5x6 is too much Northern Dancer?

Wise Dan 5x6x5

Ian Tapp 20 Apr 2013 9:42 PM

Deep Impact?

mz 20 Apr 2013 11:56 PM

Thank you for your answer Ian...!

JorgeG 21 Apr 2013 1:12 AM

A cross with Lonhro would mean a foal carrying the genes of Eight Carat and Helsinge. Probably the 2 best broodmares in Australasian history.

Tess 21 Apr 2013 1:33 AM

how about the sire of zenyatta, street cry. i like that there's no cross with nor dancer. black caviar battled a lot

of injury's in her career , i wouldn't buy a foal from her if

it's crossed with ND.(leg problem's)

ty 22 Apr 2013 5:16 AM

Deep Impact has one cross to No. Dancer

Pasadena 22 Apr 2013 9:29 AM

All athletes battle injuries- but you think Northern Dancer is the reason for Black Caviar ?? He' s in her 4th, 5th & 6th Gen. How did you come to such a ridiculous conclusion?

archer 22 Apr 2013 10:34 AM

Just to clarify, my comment about Deep Impact was just a general response to this blog, not an attempt to find "no Northern Dancer".

I, too, have some problems with a blanket statement that the Dancer is the reason for bad legs in thoroughbrreds, especially at his current remove from today's pedigrees.

I don't recall those kind of comments when he was in service.  I do remember how everyone kept saying that his chestnuts were less desirable than his bays -- but then they had that weird little ditty about "four white socks and hit him on the head" or something and The Minstrel had both the chestnut coat and the four white legs.  Ha!

Back to Deep Impact, Ian/Alan: what do the numbers say for a cross with Black Caviar?  (At least he is on the same side of the International Date Line as she is.)

mz 22 Apr 2013 10:53 AM

Tapit. Strong stallion who is only to get better.

downhomesunset 22 Apr 2013 7:46 PM

What about Sebring?

His sire More Than Ready has been mooted here. He brings plenty of Aussie speed both in performance and pedigree and his broodmare sire is Flying Spur, a stallion that has had success with the family (Magnus, All Too Hard)

He has also made a reasonable start at stud and is therefore not unproven like the Animal Kingdoms and Pierro's of the world.

You could get all Boussac aswel and send her to All Too Hard!

Cheeba 23 Apr 2013 3:46 AM

MZ,

Deep Impact is a strong nick (A+) on the basis of the Deep Impact/Nijinsky II cross.

Unfortunately, he scores less highly on the basis of Key Ancestors. He has Halo, a very strong negative, and his two positive ancestors, Northern Dancer and Sir Ivor, are only very slightly positive at their respective distances.

For those who have mentioned another Halo line horse, More Than Ready (or his son, Sebring). More Than Ready is a D nick, and also has a negative Key Ancestor Score.

Alan Porter 23 Apr 2013 10:52 AM

Looks like Dubawi won't be shuttling this year, and I suppose she'll be going to Redoute's Choice. Another good cross for her could be O'Reilly. It's from a different approach, but he looks quite good for her. Nearly all parts to his pedigree offer a pleasing blend, and he should well appreciate hers (including her Vains). I think he offers a better cross for her than Redoute's Choice. Question is-How much better as a sire (in reality) is Redoute's Choice than O'Reilly?

sceptre 23 Apr 2013 6:26 PM

What about any of the Storm Cat line stallions? You mentioned you loved the Storm Bird/Nijinksy cross. Also, who were 3rd and 4th on the Key Ancestor's report?

fan 24 Apr 2013 8:11 AM

Animal Kingdom!

Ania 25 Apr 2013 2:43 AM

I offer another thought for Black Caviar's prospective stud candidate. A confirmation trait consideration. Barbaro had a confirmation that I haven't seen in many racehorses.  He had a fairly flat croup.  Many of his photos revealed a gift I haven't seen often, the tip of his real hoof past below his elbow several inches while totally airborne. While in top form he had a light "waist" if you will. He was built like a cheetah. Maybe a stallion with a proven record and with a croup on the flatter side would make a great distance foal. A possible forgotten speed asset from the Arabian foundation stallions?

Nancy J 26 Apr 2013 9:10 PM

my selection for black caviar would be Toylsome (GER).

Rossco 15 May 2013 9:46 PM

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